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Featured Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by bcbsr, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    That’s the only way anyone is made righteous.


    It’s called the obedience of faith.


    But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



    Are you saying people are made righteous by disobedience?


    Do you understand what “by faith” means?


    It means God spoke to a person, by which they receive faith, and the person obeys what God has said to them.


    Very simple.


    By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7



    Noah received faith, when God told him to build the Ark.


    Noah obeyed.


    That is the righteousness of faith.




    JLB
     
  2. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    No verse I post are out of context sir..


    Jesus said we must remain in Him or be cast into the fire and burned.


    Same John.

    Same context.


    Abiding in Christ.


    If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



    Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


    Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



    JLB
     
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    If it was true 2000 years ago (and it was), then it's always going to be true. Show me where the Apostles taught salvation without effort, or salvation without taking up the cross of self-denial.

    You can't, because this teaching does not exist, and has never existed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
     
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  4. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
    Galatians 3:6-9

    That’s what “by faith” means.
     
  5. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 NKJV

    "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him." John 3:36 NIV

    Literally in the Greek the phrase means to not be persuaded, and thus in context is talking about unbelief.
     
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    No context. No context about what just happened that might precipitate His statement.
     
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom 4:1-3

    "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

    "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

    "To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." John 1:12,13

    "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

    "Now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:21-24
     
  8. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    No sir.

    That’s certainly not what by faith means.


    Just read the scripture you posted, and you will see the biblical pattern for being justified by faith.


    Here let me help you.


    By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


    That is the incident that Galatians refers to.


    Here it is from Genesis.


    Now the Lord had said to Abram:
    “Get out of your country,
    From your family
    And from your father’s house,
    To a land that I will show you.
    I will make you a great nation;
    I will bless you
    And make your name great;
    And you shall be a blessing.
    I will bless those who bless you,
    And I will curse him who curses you;
    And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
    So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him,
    Genesis 12:1-4



    No obedience - No justification.

    No Obedience - No Righteousness.



    JLB
     
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  9. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Whose boasting? Nobody's boasting, except for in the cross of the Lord, Jesus Christ, Whose disciples deny themselves, taking up their own crosses and following Him (i.e. keeping His sayings as best as they can by the grace of God, imparted by the Holy Spirit). This they do because they believe in Him, also by grace. But it's not effortless, nor has God declared it to be so. We can't take a portion of Biblical teaching about salvation (the portion we like), declare that portion to wholly define salvation, and cut out all the rest of it, to discard it and trample it underfoot. To do so is to reduce the great Mystery of Salvation to a mere idol (i.e. something that is wholly defined/circumscribed). In short, Salvation is God Himself (uncircumscribable) Living and working in us, in the incomprehensible form of His Divine, uncreated Energy (grace). The Apostles all know this, and have taught it to us, and now we also know it. We know it by the grace of God by which we receive illumination of our minds to the understanding of Him Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, Who is the Light of men. The holy Orthodox Church has always understood these things, and has taught them throughout the Church age. There is no new teaching here, just the Truth upheld since the beginning.
     
  10. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, as you can see believe and obey are synonymous.



    He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV



    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
    John 3:36 NASB


    Disobedience is Unbelief.



    JLB
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    There’s nothing in what you posted that said Abraham was justified by his works. However, the the passage that I posted in which you waved off, it clearly says he was justified because he believed.

    Did he obey because of faith, as the scriptures you posted say? Yes. But nothing about justification.
     
  12. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I can't find any evidence that the Church has ever taught (not in the Bible) that justification is the whole of salvation? Where are we ever taught that salvation is only about not going down, with no inclusion of understanding that the upward ascent to God is every bit a part of salvation, and even that greater part than justification is? Reducing the great Mystery of Salvation to only one small portion of it, cutting out and discarding the rest, trampling it underfoot, is a serious error. Presenting this small portion of salvation (i.e. justification) to be the totality of it is to commit idolatry, in a sense, and so could also be a grave sin. This is not something that the holy Apostle Paul would have ever stood for. Neither does the Church stand for it.

    In other words, it is not merely the death of God that saves, but the Resurrection, Ascension, and the coming of the Holy Spirit which are every bit as imperative to the great Mystery of Salvation as the Atoning sacrifice is. If justification is for the sake of our deification (which it is) then what possible justification can their ever be for separating these things as if Salvation could ever be anything but all of these things together? And it's not possible to separate deification from willful obedience to God's will. Therefor, salvation is not effortless. No passage of Scripture can be used to support this idea when the whole of Scripture is altogether against it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I’ve never that justification is the whole of salvation. But it is a one time thing. There’s also election and predestination (one time things). And sanctification (a continuing thing). And finally glorification, also a one time thing.

    It seems folks want to mix or interchange justification and sanctification. That’s an error as they are separate.
     
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    How can they really be separate things if the first is for the sake of the other? Deification (sanctification and glorification) was the very reason for our existence, from the beginning (and it's not a one time thing, but an eternal progressive transformation). Salvation is the restoration for us of that blessed Life in God. There is no justification without deification, as the first exists only for the sake of being fulfilled by the other. There is also no deification without willful obedience, because the Bible says so in no uncertain terms. (James 4:6-7).
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Justification is our standing before God. Sanctification and glorification is God conforming us and transforming us.

    The More You Know. ;)
     
  16. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Justification is being known by God, because His heart is in you. Just so you know.
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Every knee shall bow. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Justification is being made righteous. That’s the definition.
     
  18. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    No one is righteous who does not Love God, and in or through whom God is not doing righteous works. Justification is having God in you (His grace), and having God in you is also working your sanctification (by His grace) at the same time. Faith apart from works is dead, as justification in the absence of sanctification is false justification. Where there is one, there is the other. Where one is absent, so is the other. The Bible says so, in no uncertain terms.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  19. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    This is what it comes down to basically. Protestants don't view justification as constituting any real inward change of the person's soul. That comes later for them, if at all.

    They don't think justification actually changes the quality of person's soul, it only changes his standing before God by imputing the personal righteousness of our Lord to the sinner (via magic which is found nowhere in Scripture).

    Thus you get Luther's "dung heap covered in snow" and when God looks at him he does not see the dung that he actually is, he "only sees Jesus."

    It is quite ridiculous of course, but they twist the Scriptures to drag that out.

    They think that others confuse justification and sanctification, but in fact they are themselves confused about the nature of justification. Never before Luther did any Christian attempt to draw the hard line between the two that they love to do. And never before did anyone suggest that justification did not constitute a real change in the person's soul.

    Since one's standing before God has nothing to do with one's actual inward character or the quality of one's soul, they have an effective license to sin (even though they deny it), which is why Luther encouraged them to "sin boldly".

    All of these falsehoods as a remedy for Luther's scrupulosity. It's a shame how they have perverted the gospel, really.
     
  20. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    I agree, with only one reservation. Certain Protestants do not stop at forensic justification and then go on sinning, but do receive sanctifying grace through their faith, which fills them with the Love of God, by Whom they are compelled (by the Holy Spirit) to allow God to work in and through them for the salvation of the world. This is in spite of their problematic dogmas of salvation, by the great Love of God. I don't dare to pass judgment on such people of faith. But I won't refrain from warning others about the dangers of butchering the Truth about Salvation.
     
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