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Featured Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by bcbsr, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

    What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

    I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

    But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

    Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
    The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

    In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

    As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?
     
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  2. Danielwright2311

    Danielwright2311 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Its a gift given to us all, not by works, but by faith and that faith is a gift of belief from God. God sends his people to Jesus who forgives us for sin. We do not send our self.
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else. So I live in harmony with the Commandments according to my new nature.
     
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  4. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Not sure what you mean by "final" salvation.

    Is there more than one?
     
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  5. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    That is salvation through faith + works. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by making this statement below:

    We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

    His argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then afterwards, stating that faith is defined as and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. It's just smoke and mirrors.

    From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  6. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We're FREE TO SIN???

    Are we reading the same bible?
    My bible tells me that if I live a life of sin, I'm not saved.

    Romans 12:2
    John 14:15
    John 15:6
     
  7. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just one small comment on 1 Peter 1:9
    7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
    9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.



    verse 7 We go through trials to TEST OUR FAITH. To see if it is strong. IF our faith remains strong it will bring glory and honor to us on the day of Christ's return.

    verse 8 We trust God and are happy to know we are headed for heaven.

    verse 9 The REWARD for our TRUSTING HIM will be the salvation of our souls. (future tense).

    IOW, if our faith remains strong, our reward will be heaven.

    No faith......no heaven.
    Please review 1 Peter 1:9 since you misunderstood it.
     
  8. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    A man on death row that is convicted of a crime that is then Justified by mercy is Justified and thusly Saved.

    There is no sliding scale for how Justified and Saved he is. He was condemned, and then he was saved.

    He was going to be lethally injected, but then he wasn’t.

    There’s no sliding scale for how saved he is. That man is Saved!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  9. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    I did not misunderstand 1 Peter 1:9 and I often hear works-salvationists make these kinds of arguments. Authentic faith in Christ continues to trust in Him for salvation and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. It's not about is your faith strong enough in every aspect of the Christian life (we start out as babies in Christ and continue to grow) but whether or not you are truly trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.
     
  10. James Murphy

    James Murphy New Convert To Lutheranism

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    Aren't there six other threads on the exact same topic running right now? :help:
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    If we get to 7, that would be perfect!
    If we get to 8, it would be like only having 1, due to it being a new beginning.

    :D
     
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  12. James Murphy

    James Murphy New Convert To Lutheranism

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    lol.....I'm thinking some sort of merger might be in order. Cut down on the clutter and confusion ya know?
     
  13. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    The old covenant saw a prosecuting attorney at the right hand of God.

    The New Covenant has a Jewish Defense Attorney at the right hand of God.

    Saved is saved. :)

    I hope my tongue in cheek humor is well received.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  14. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    They will all combine like Voltron to point to Jesus... Defender, Sealer and Provider of our Salvation. :D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  15. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    How much works is required?
     
  16. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How much faith is required?
     
  17. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lord, to whom shall we go?

    Of course.
    But I also know that I have to obey Him.

    John 14:15
    15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


    Jesus said we must keep His commandments IF we love Him...not me.
     
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  18. GodsGrace101

    GodsGrace101 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The New Covenant will save us IF WE STAY IN IT.

    If we decide to depart from it, it will no longer cover us.

    Do you think we've lost our free will after becoming saved?
     
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  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I could lose my free will if I tried! :D
    But, I also know that you wouldn't depart from Him.

    When I see people hammering away at salvational assurance, I bring up the parable of the seed sewer.

    I'll replace it with the Ark. The Ark door stands open, and all us animals ( :p ) can climb on aboard and find our way to our quarters. God gives us time to look around and see if we agree with His provisions. Some animals think it's better outside the Ark and head back out. Some animals like the provisions and ask God to close the stable door, lock it and throw away the key, because they instinctively know they get stupid and want to make sure they don't get swept away in the flood.

    However, what's extra stupid is when some of the Animals see how good the provisions are, and desire to show gratitude to the ARK BUILDER, by going back outside and attempting to swim for the duration of the flood.

    Now I know that the analogy isn't accurate to what happened on the Ark, but it is accurate to what happens between "initial gospel belief" and "Being grasped by the Father, through Jesus".

    Godsgrace101,

    I know fo sure you have asked God to lock your stable door and throw away the key, just like I have. (Ephesians 1:13 ; Romans 8:9 ; 1 Peter 3:20-22)

    Am I wrong? :)
     
  20. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    How much obedience is required? Considering me as well as other with faith in Christ are not always obedient.

    How much obediance is required? Can you, do you love the Lord with all of your heart? All of yoyr mind? All of your strength? I mean ALL?

    I trust God will keep me saved even when i screw up.

    How much of the commandments must we keep? 100% ??? 90%???
     
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