Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[Hammster]

No one is righteous who does not Love God, and in or through whom God is not doing righteous works. Justification is having God in you (His grace), and having God in you is also working your sanctification (by His grace) at the same time. Faith apart from works is dead, as justification in the absence of sanctification is false justification. Where there is one, there is the other. Where one is absent, so is the other. The Bible says so, in no uncertain terms.

You can keep making stuff up, but scripture says we are made righteous by faith. Period. That doesn’t mean works won’t be present. Just that works won’t add to your righteousness.

 

[Hammster]

This is what it comes down to basically. Protestants don't view justification as constituting any real inward change of the person's soul.

We don’t view it that way because scripture doesn’t teach it.

 

[Hammster]

They don't think justification actually changes the quality of person's soul, it only changes his standing before God by imputing the personal righteousness of our Lord to the sinner (via magic which is found nowhere in Scripture).

2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[JLB777]

There’s nothing in what you posted that said Abraham was justified by his works.

There’s nothing in what I posted that said Abraham was justified by his works.


He was justified by the obedience of faith just like we are today.


The “work” that James refers to is the obedience of faith.


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead and can not save.


Abraham was justified when he obeyed and got out of his country and departed for the land God would shown him.


This typifies how God would justify the Gentiles by faith.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



Abraham repented.


That is, he turned to God, by turning away from his old life to follow the Lord.

He lived a life of obedience to the Lord, and God blesses him.

He live a life of faith.



And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:4-5



Very simple.





JLB

 

[truefiction1]

You can keep making stuff up, but scripture says we are made righteous by faith. Period. That doesn’t mean works won’t be present. Just that works won’t add to your righteousness.

I didn't say that we aren't made righteous by faith, I only said what Scripture says: Faith apart from works is dead. Period. And even if you have the gift of faith, if you bear no fruit through obedience to the will of God, Who expects fruit to be born, then beware: (Luke 8:18)

The Church never makes things up. She only receives Truth and passes it on through the ages. Justification is by a saving faith that is characterized by active obedience to God's will. What saint of God has ever just determined to sit around and "only believe", while continuing to intentionally disobey the Lord's commandments, and been justified? Where does the Bible tell of such a person of fruitless faith, who is not being sanctified by grace because of their faith with works?

 

[Hammster]

There’s nothing in what I posted that said Abraham was justified by his works.


He was justified by the obedience of faith just like we are today.


The “work” that James refers to is the obedience of faith.


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead and can not save.


Abraham was justified when he obeyed and got out of his country and departed for the land God would shown him.


This typifies how God would justify the Gentiles by faith.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



Abraham repented.


That is, he turned to God, by turning away from his old life to follow the Lord.

He lived a life of obedience to the Lord, and God blesses him.

He live a life of faith.



And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:4-5



Very simple.





JLB

Let me be clearer. There’s nothing you posted that said Abraham was justified by anything other than faith. Whereas what I posted said exactly that. Did he obey out of faith? Yes. But it’s not what justified him, according to scripture.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say that we aren't made righteous by faith, I only said what Scripture says: Faith apart from works is dead. Period. And even if you have the gift of faith, if you bear no fruit through obedience to the will of God, Who expects fruit to be born, then beware: (Luke 8:18)

The Church never makes things up. She only receives Truth and passes it on through the ages. Justification is by a saving faith that is characterized by active obedience to God's will. What saint of God has ever just determined to sit around and "only believe", while continuing to intentionally disobey the Lord's commandments, and been justified? Where does the Bible tell of such a person of fruitless faith, who is not being sanctified by grace because of their faith with works?

Here you’ve actually made a distinction between justification and sanctification. That’s good.

 

[Shimokita]

2 Corinthians 5:21

This verse states absolutely nothing about the personal righteousness of Christ being imputed to a believer.

 

[Shimokita]

I agree, with only one reservation. Certain Protestants do not stop at forensic justification and then go on sinning, but do receive sanctifying grace through their faith, which fills them with the Love of God, by Whom they are compelled (by the Holy Spirit) to allow God to work in and through them for the salvation of the world. This is in spite of their problematic dogmas of salvation, by the great Love of God. I don't dare to pass judgment on such people of faith. But I won't refrain from warning others about the dangers of butchering the Truth about Salvation.

Yes, what I wrote was too much of an overgeneralization and does not apply to all.

 

[Hammster]

This verse states absolutely nothing about the personal righteousness of Christ being imputed to a believer.

Okay.

 

[JLB777]

Let me be clearer. There’s nothing you posted that said Abraham was justified by anything other than faith. Whereas what I posted said exactly that. Did he obey out of faith? Yes. But it’s not what justified him, according to scripture.

According to scripture the obedience of faith is the only kind of faith that justifies.


If Abraham refuses to be bey God and get out of his country, but rather just stays, he will not be justified.


Only obedience to God justifies.


Please stop ignoring the plain scriptures I’m quoting, and the truth they so plainly teach us.





He was justified by the obedience of faith just like we are today.


The “work” that James refers to is the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac


Not good works
Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage

The corresponding action or work of obedience; the obedience of faith.


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead and can not save.

It’s incomplete.



Abraham was justified when he obeyed and got out of his country and departed for the land God would shown him.


This typifies how God would justify the Gentiles by faith.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



Abraham repented.


That is, he turned to God, by turning away from his old life to follow the Lord.

He lived a life of obedience to the Lord, and God blesses him.

He live a life of faith.



And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:4-5



Very simple.





JLB

 

[Hammster]

According to scripture the obedience of faith is the only kind of faith that justifies.


If Abraham refuses to be bey God and get out of his country, but rather just stays, he will not be justified.


Only obedience to God justifies.


Please stop ignoring the plain scriptures I’m quoting, and the truth they so plainly teach us.





He was justified by the obedience of faith just like we are today.


The “work” that James refers to is the obedience of faith.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac


Not good works
Not the works of the law
Not works that earn a wage

The corresponding action or work of obedience; the obedience of faith.


Faith without the corresponding action of obedience is dead and can not save.

It’s incomplete.



Abraham was justified when he obeyed and got out of his country and departed for the land God would shown him.


This typifies how God would justify the Gentiles by faith.


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



Abraham repented.


That is, he turned to God, by turning away from his old life to follow the Lord.

He lived a life of obedience to the Lord, and God blesses him.

He live a life of faith.



And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:4-5



Very simple.





JLB

I’m not ignoring the scripture you use. I’m saying that it doesn’t say what you are claiming. You even posted Galatians 3:8. But ignored the context, and then assumed it meant something that it doesn’t say. So let me show it in context.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain⁠—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:2-9

Paul clearly shows that it’s faith that justifies. In fact, he is chastising the churches for trying to justify themselves with works. He doesn’t say that works are not important. Just that they don’t do anything towards justification.

And you are completely missing the point of justification in James. His concern is over actual faith verses stated faith. The point is that if you have actual faith, there will be fruit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. But obedience doesn’t make one righteous.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is what it comes down to basically. Protestants don't view justification as constituting any real inward change of the person's soul. That comes later for them, if at all.

They don't think justification actually changes the quality of person's soul, it only changes his standing before God by imputing the personal righteousness of our Lord to the sinner (via magic which is found nowhere in Scripture).

Thus you get Luther's "dung heap covered in snow" and when God looks at him he does not see the dung that he actually is, he "only sees Jesus."

It is quite ridiculous of course, but they twist the Scriptures to drag that out.

They think that others confuse justification and sanctification, but in fact they are themselves confused about the nature of justification. Never before Luther did any Christian attempt to draw the hard line between the two that they love to do. And never before did anyone suggest that justification did not constitute a real change in the person's soul.

Since one's standing before God has nothing to do with one's actual inward character or the quality of one's soul, they have an effective license to sin (even though they deny it), which is why Luther encouraged them to "sin boldly".

All of these falsehoods as a remedy for Luther's scrupulosity. It's a shame how they have perverted the gospel, really.

Martin Luther gained so much traction because he came at a time when people were desperate for a different kind of church. The Roman church was in a really bad state during that time making it easy for Luther to point out Rome’s mistakes and gather huge followings. It was a very misfortune time for Christianity, being split into so many groups.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m not ignoring the scripture you use. I’m saying that it doesn’t say what you are claiming. You even posted Galatians 3:8. But ignored the context, and then assumed it meant something that it doesn’t say. So let me show it in context.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain⁠—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:2-9

Paul clearly shows that it’s faith that justifies. In fact, he is chastising the churches for trying to justify themselves with works. He doesn’t say that works are not important. Just that they don’t do anything towards justification.

And you are completely missing the point of justification in James. His concern is over actual faith verses stated faith. The point is that if you have actual faith, there will be fruit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. But obedience doesn’t make one righteous.

Bless you friend, how do you interpret John 15:1-10? Jesus’ warning to His 11 faithful apostles is a pretty strong indication that even those who have faith must also obey and bear fruit. Verses 2 and 6 are pretty strong evidence that those who are in Christ can fall from grace.

 

[Shimokita]

I’m not ignoring the scripture you use. I’m saying that it doesn’t say what you are claiming. You even posted Galatians 3:8. But ignored the context, and then assumed it meant something that it doesn’t say. So let me show it in context.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain⁠—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:2-9

Paul clearly shows that it’s faith that justifies. In fact, he is chastising the churches for trying to justify themselves with works. He doesn’t say that works are not important. Just that they don’t do anything towards justification.

And you are completely missing the point of justification in James. His concern is over actual faith verses stated faith. The point is that if you have actual faith, there will be fruit. Obedience is the fruit of faith. But obedience doesn’t make one righteous.

Agree for the most part, except that I would say his concern is about a "faith" that merely constitutes intellectual belief.

Faith apart from works (in the Protestant framework of justification) I have no problem with, but "Faith alone" must be rejected.

 

[Hammster]

Bless you friend, how do you interpret John 15:1-10? Jesus’ warning to His 11 faithful apostles is a pretty strong indication that even those who have faith must also obey and bear fruit. Verses 2 and 6 are pretty strong evidence that those who are in Christ can fall from grace.

I don’t think so if context is considered. Judas has just left to betray Christ. So the question of true and false followers would soon be on their minds. Whether there is fruit is the key. Those who bear fruit are true believers. Those who don’t (not stopped) are not true believers, and they will be cut off.

I think there are other examples with the parable of the sower and seeds, and the wheat and tares.

 

[Hammster]

Agree for the most part, except that I would say his concern is about a "faith" that merely constitutes intellectual belief.

Faith apart from works (in the Protestant framework of justification) I have no problem with, but "Faith alone" must be rejected.

Just so I understand, what do you think is meant by faith alone?

 

[TheSeabass]

No, the verse shows long ago, which i believe meand before the foundation of the world thoe people were chosen for condemnation so Gods will would be accomplished.
Same with Pharaoh.

The verse is talking about the punishment. God has for example, predetermined unbelief will be condemned (John 3:18; Revelation 21:8), but God does not determine which men will or will not be unbelievers. Those that choose to be ungodly, as those in Jude 1:4 have therefore condemned themselves just as those who choose to be godly 'save themselves" Acts 2:40; 1 Tim 4:16; etc.

From Thomas Coke's commentary on Jude 1:4 "Dr. Benson very justly observes, that the word κριμα does not denote their sin, but the condemnation of them because of their sin; and that παλαι, of old, does not signify "from all eternity," but "from a former time, or a time long since past:" (my emp)

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don’t think so if context is considered. Judas has just left to betray Christ. So the question of true and false followers would soon be on their minds. Whether there is fruit is the key. Those who bear fruit are true believers. Those who don’t (not stopped) are not true believers, and they will be cut off.

I think there are other examples with the parable of the sower and seeds, and the wheat and tares.

Then false professors are in Christ and grafted into the vine?

 

[TheSeabass]

Still adding to scripture.

“Abraham was justified by having an obedient belief in doing what God told him to do,”

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21

I am just repeating what scriptures say.

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
— Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
— Hebrews 11:17

Neither of these verses say he was justified by obedient faith.

Both verse show that Abraham had an obedient faith and not Luther's faith only.
And James shows Abraham was justified by his obedient works.

Galatians says

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:6-8

So how was he justified? By works of the flesh (Hebrews 11) or by faith (Galatians 3; Romans 4)?

Scripture says by faith.

Gal 3:6 says Abraham believed God, it does not say Abraham had belief only. We know from Hebrews 11:8,17 that Abraham's belief included obedience.

Abraham was not justified by works of the flesh, meaning he was not justified by keeping God's law flawlessly and perfectly for he sinned.

He was justified by faith and again from Hebrews 11 we know his faith included obedience not a dead faith void of obedience. No verse ever says he was justified by faith alone.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 and Abraham's faith included his obedience in moving from his house, land and kindred, Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. So his obedient faith would have already been counted as righteousness in Genesis 12. His being justified was a process from Genesis 12 to Genesis 22:12. The faith onlyist cannot show were Abraham was justified at onw quick moment in time when he had 'faith only'.