Is Everybody going to heaven?

[DeborahsSong]

Simple. He knows the beginning from the end. From the beginning He knew who would and would not follow Him. Knowing how things turn out doesn't always change the fact that you must get things started. What does the US Military call it... oh yeah, "collateral damage".

WELL, IN GENERAL, THAT'S THE ARMINIAN ARGUMENT(AND FOR THAT MATTER, MY PREVIOUS DOCTRINAL STAND). IT JUST ISN'T CONSISTENT WITH MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES, WHICH WE HAVE BEEN POINTING OUT IN RECENT POSTS. THE ACT OR POINT OF BELIEVING SHOULDN'T BE CONFUSED WITH CHOICE. INCLUSIONISTS BELIEVE THAT GOD BRINGS EVERYONE TO THE POINT OF BELIEF SO THAT HE MAY BE THE ALL IN ALL. HE DRAWS ALL MEN TO HIMSELF.

 

[Rajni]

Simple. He knows the beginning from the end. From the beginning He knew who would and would not follow Him. Knowing how things turn out doesn't always change the fact that you must get things started. What does the US Military call it... oh yeah, "collateral damage".

Collateral damage: "unintended or incidental damage caused during a military operation". Okay,let's look at that.

What you are saying is that those who wind up in hell do so incidentally and/or unintentionally. That may work with respect to a fallible human military, but we're talking about a Sovereign God.

Since when was God under any obligation to "get things started"?

And I'm not sure that referring to those made in His image, who supposedly wind up in "hell", as merely "collateral damage" is taking seriously enough the implications brought about by a belief in eternal torment. I personally don't think God is sloppy enough in His work that "collateral damage" (in this case, 90% of mankind being tortured forever) would even be necessary.





.

 

[Optimax]

KarenJoy had brought up the same passage earlier in this thread, in post #29. You can read my response to that in post #30, as it's the same response I would provide here.

I am sure your answer would be the same.

So, I will stop confusing you with scriptural fact as you have your mind made up.

 

[Svt4Him]

What you are saying is that those who wind up in hell do so incidentally and/or unintentionally. That may work with respect to a fallible human military, but we're talking about a Sovereign God.

No, everyone who sins does so intentionally. And we're also talking about a just God, so He can't just overlook that.

Well, if the following Scriptures are any indicator of God's standard method of operating ... And again, I'm not listing these verses to blame God. Rather, since we are the clay and He is the Potter, sometimes the clay needs some serious squishing around to get into the shape the potter wishes it to be in:

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

Already talked about that. Sold Israel as well, although no one bought them....which I guess means He didn't really sell them. But this is a red herring, as the reason people sin is clearly laid out in the Bible.

 

[DeborahsSong]

God overlooks all sin. That's because his blood covers it. Jesus is our mercy seat. Now, it's a matter of getting the unrenewed mind of man to realize what he has already accomplished.

 

[LeadWorship]

God overlooks all sin. That's because his blood covers it. Jesus is our mercy seat.

Wrong. God overlooks the sin that has been covered by the blood of Jesus. Until you accept that atoning blood for your sin, it's not forgiven. It has the potential to be forgiven, but we as humankind must make a conscious decision to accept that forgiveness.

Like I said earlier, stop saying you can live like hell and still enjoy eternity in heaven. It's not gonna happen. Inclusion is a "feel good" perverted way to view scripture. It's taking something pure and holy and making it a failsafe for anyone anywhere. From the Canabilistic sicko-s that murder babies and feast on their flesh, to people who fornicate with dead animals or each other with organs of dead animals all over and around, to people who strive to live a pure life of spiritual worship (as defined in Romans 12:1). My God is loving and sovereign at the same time. He's also the God of the Old Testament who in righteous judgement killed many who opposed him.

Stop making God fit your life, and make your life fit God.

 

[Rajni]

Wrong. God overlooks the sin that has been covered by the blood of Jesus.

That would be all sin. He came to take away the sin of the world, not just the sin of those from whom He sheepishly waits for permission.

Like I said earlier, stop saying you can live like hell and still enjoy eternity in heaven.

Please cite the post where anyone here has said "You can live like hell and still enjoy eternity in heaven."

And if you truly believe that this is what we believe, you're flattering yourself if you think we'd rather be sitting at a computer arguing with you when we could be out there "living like hell".

So, again, please show us the post(s) where we have specifically said "You can live like hell and still enjoy eternity in heaven."

Thanks in advance!

He's also the God of the Old Testament who in righteous judgement killed many who opposed him.

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but there's this new covenant now, about which the New Testament testifies. So you will probably not get to see those you can't stand get quite as dreary a come-uppance as you may have hoped for.

Stop making God fit your life, and make your life fit God.

Exactly! Not that we can make God do anything -- that's more "orthodoxy's" hangup.



.

 

[Rajni]

God overlooks all sin. That's because his blood covers it. Jesus is our mercy seat. Now, it's a matter of getting the unrenewed mind of man to realize what he has already accomplished.

Blessed be the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


.

 

[Henaynei]

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but there's this new covenant now, about which the New Testament testifies. So you will probably not get to see those you can't stand get quite as dreary a come-uppance as you may have hoped for. .

have you read Revelation lately?? we all have a come-uppance of some sort coming

and G-d is the same righteous, mighty, just and angry Warrior in the NT as in the OT.... only in the NT it is forever and not just a warnings....

 

[Rajni]

have you read Revelation lately?? we all have a come-uppance of some sort coming

and G-d is the same righteous, mighty, just and angry Warrior in the NT as in the OT.... only in the NT it is forever and not just a warnings....

Which Scripture verses, specifically, are you referring to with the above statements?



.

 

[DeborahsSong]

The mercy seat, sprinkled with blood, covered the law and all its accusations. Or as Paul put it: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." Col 2:13-14

And while we're in Colossians:

"and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." Col 1:20

It's cosmic in scope and it's all been done! Now it's just a matter for all Adam's sons to learn this truth and stand firm in the faith of who they are in Christ, not who they were in Adam. The unrenewed mind holds sin consciousness. That's why Peter says the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls (minds/identities). Until we reach the point where we are born again and our minds renewed, Jesus cannot present us to the Father without accusation, because we will accuse ourselves! Col 1:22-23.

Let those of us who are further along in the process, be patient with those who are slow are clueless, knowing that they are God's workmanship.

 

[Henaynei]

Which Scripture verses, specifically, are you referring to with the above statements?



.

Quidquid [as demanding scriptural challenges] dictum sit altum sonatur.


what scriptures you ask? why the entire book of Revelations.

 

[Svt4Him]

Blessed be the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


.

Can you tell me what happens when one tramples the spirit of grace, so there is no longer a sacrifice to take away those sins?

Hebrews:
International Standard Version (©2008)
For if we choose to go on sinning we learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins.

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
t is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Haven't even touched on the unforgivable sin...which is now forgiven.

 

[Rajni]

Can you tell me what happens when one tramples the spirit of grace, so there is no longer a sacrifice to take away those sins?

Hebrews:
​

International Standard Version (©2008)
For if we choose to go on sinning we learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins.​

​

No sacrifice can take away those sins, because where there is forgiveness of these sins there's no longer any offering for them (see Hebrews 10:18). If there are no more offerings for sin, it would seem that it's because there is no longer any more sin in need of remittance. There's no more Law, therefore there is no more transgression (Romans 4). Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all (see 1 Tim 2:3-6)

How many mediators are there between God and man? One: Jesus Christ Himself.

In Hebrews 10:27, following the verse you cited above, it says that there only remains a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Judgment did indeed come upon those who didn't heed the warnings. There are no indications, however, that this judgment had to last eternally to be effective.

​

 

[DeborahsSong]

Can you tell me what happens when one tramples the spirit of grace, so there is no longer a sacrifice to take away those sins?

THE REFERENCE IS TO HEBREWS 10:26. RECALL THIS IS A BOOK DIRECTED TO JEWS, EXPLAINING THAT THE OLD COVENANT IS DONE AWAY WITH AND REPLACED BY THE NEW. THE SIN REFERENCED IS TURNING AWAY FROM THE NEW, AND GOING BACK TO THE MOSAIC LAW. GOD HAS DONE AWAY WITH THAT LAW, AND THE SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM UNDER IT. APOSTATES WHO SACRIFICE AT HEROD'S TEMPLE ARE DELUDING THEMSELVES. NOR IS JESUS GOING TO OFFER ANY ADDITIONAL SACRIFICE FOR "... WHEN THIS PRIEST HAD OFFERED FOR ALL TIME ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, HE SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD." HEB 10:12 (NIV)

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

THE ABOVE TEXT IS HEB 10:29. APOSTATES WILL BE PUNISHED, WHETHER IN THIS LIFE OR THE NEXT. BUT NOTICE THE "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." HERE IS GOD'S FORMULA FOR DEALING OUT VENGEANCE: "THEREFORE THE Lord, THE LORD ALMIGHTY,THE MIGHTY ONE OF ISRAEL DECLARES: 'AH, I WILL GET RELIEF FROM MY FOES AND AVENGE MYSELF ON MY ENEMIES. I WILL TURN MY HAND AGAINST YOU; I WILL THOROUGHLY PURGE AWAY YOUR DROSS AND REMOVE ALL YOUR IMPURITIES. I WILL RESTORE YOUR JUDGES AS IN DAYS OF OLD, YOUR COUNSELORS AS AT THE BEGINNING. AFTERWARD YOU WILL BE CALLED THE CITY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THE FAITHFUL CITY'" ISA 1 24-26.

Haven't even touched on the unforgivable sin...which is now forgiven.

IF BY UNFORGIVABLE SIN YOU MEAN "SIN UNTO DEATH" THAT IS A REFERENCE TO SINS UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW THAT WERE CAPITAL OFFENCES.

IF YOU MEAN BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, JESUS SAID THAT SIN WOULD NOT BE FORGIVEN IN THIS AGE (HE WAS SPEAKING WHEN THE MOSAIC LAW WAS STILL IN EFFECT), OR IN THE NEXT AGE. THE BLASPHEMER WILL REPENT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.

 

[Rajni]

what scriptures you ask? why the entire book of Revelations.

What I'm asking you is, where in Revelation do you specifically see the following claims you had made previously:

1. "we all have a come-uppance of some sort coming"
2. "G-d is the same righteous, mighty, just and angry Warrior in the NT as in the OT.... only in the NT it is forever and not just a warnings...."

Since there are probably at least as many interpretations of Revelation as there are Christian denominations, it would be helpful if you specify just exactly what verses in Revelation are bringing you to the above conclusions. Telling me that it's the entire book of Revelation is far too vague, and doesn't tell me much since the entire book of Revelation communicates something different to me than it does to you.

Thanks in advance!

.

 

[Svt4Him]

​

No sacrifice can take away those sins, because where there is forgiveness of these sins there's no longer any offering for them (see Hebrews 10:18). If there are no more offerings for sin, it would seem that it's because there is no longer any more sin in need of remittance. There's no more Law, therefore there is no more transgression (Romans 4). Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all (see 1 Tim 2:3-6)

How many mediators are there between God and man? One: Jesus Christ Himself.

In Hebrews 10:27, following the verse you cited above, it says that there only remains a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Judgment did indeed come upon those who didn't heed the warnings. There are no indications, however, that this judgment had to last eternally to be effective.

​

So the sins were already forgiven, yet the verse is still in Hebrews. Seems God saying things just to be heard is not a characteristic I see Him having. The sin is not forgiven as there is no way it can be. Seems like an eternal issue to me.

 

[Rajni]

So the sins were already forgiven, yet the verse is still in Hebrews. Seems God saying things just to be heard is not a characteristic I see Him having. The sin is not forgiven as there is no way it can be. Seems like an eternal issue to me.

It was the logical outcome of not believing in the Messiah. Those that refused to do so continued on with their Old Covenant religious rituals, and therefore got creamed during the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. Those who heeded the warnings fled to the mountains of Judea.

This is where I see all the Scriptural verses that undeniably link salvation with belief coming into play: believing protected people from perishing when God executed His judgment upon Jerusalem; they got out of town before all heck broke loose.


.

 

[HumbleServant94]

Again, which bible? Perhaps you missed my response (post 137) to your previous post, which addresses this very issue.


.

The normal Scriptures. The Holy Bible. That Bible. Why would there be no Hell? Then Jesus wouldn't have to save us. The whole crucifixion would have been for nothing. Besides hell is in every Bible. If there is no hell, then the Bible would be lying. It never lies. This is ridiculous.

 

[HumbleServant94]

Although this thread has some good points, other points are about as idiotic as they come. Once again, not everyone is going to heaven. That is just the way it works. No matter how many points you make, it's not going to change it. I am angry right now because you keep contradicting God's Word. F.Y.I. Different translated bibles don't make much of a difference. They are different in the way they say it, but they are the same meaning. Duh! The belief that no one's going to hell was made by Satan. He wants people to think that. It's pretty obvious the belief is wrong because all over the bible it talks about hell.