Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Svt4Him]

Well, Jesus told the goat company in Matt 25:41 to depart from him into the aionian fire prepared for the devil and his angels (sounds like the lake of fire to me) and in v.46 he further states that these go into aionian kolastin. The Greek word aionian means epochal or age during. (For those who think aion means eternity, then your favorite verse, Rev 20:10, would read "'eternity of the eternities" since in the Greek text it is aionas ton aionan. The KJ pulls a swith and says "forever" to avoid this upsurdity). Kolastin is the Greek word for corrective punishment designed to produce a change of mind. There are other Greek words that convey the idea of eternal and retributive punishment. The Pharisees used them. The pagans used them, but Jesus does not.

Those referenced in Matt 7:21 also depart from Jesus in that they are professing a salvation based on their works, rather than the work of God. They can't enter the kingdom with this mind set.

If being told to depart is a judgment that is final, than we are all in the soup, because Adam and Eve were kicked out of Eden.

So it's only for a time? Hmmm...


"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great harlot of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

Then of course there's Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."

The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.

• "unquenchable, inextinguishable" - Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• "not quenched" - Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• "pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable." - Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, [Online] Available: Logos Library System
• "unquenched, unquenchable" - Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• "that cannot be put out" - Wigram-Green, The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, (Peabody Mass: Hendrikson Publishers, 1982, p. 771.
• "inextinguishable" - William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, 2nd ed. (Chicago, Ill: The University of Chicago Press), 1979, p. 114.

Quoted from http://www.carm.org/uni/eternal_hell.htm

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by AV1611VET
The answer is pretty straightforward, don't you think?

No, it does not so think. It thinks people elevate their opinions to the level of God's own in their heads and fail to recognize the simple distinction JC made between what bes written and what a person reads. You completely ignored the verse it pointed out which points out that this distinction exists and gets divine recognition. Therefore: "fail".

Moriah understands God voted YES to everyone going to Heaven when He went to the Cross. End of story.

are you going to Heaven Moriah?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Moriah, I am not sure why you are referring to yourself in the third person, or why you are referring to yourself as "it", but I do know that you can be more than a conqueror through Jesus Christ, Who loves us and gave Himself for us.

thank you.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

are you going to Heaven Moriah?

If so He wills and so He makes. It has no ability to determine that for itself. It bes utterly dependent upon His mercy in all respects, for without it, it bes lost in darkness, consumed by terror and anguish, twisted and controlled by dark forces that rape and torture and make her like it, and cannot feel any desire or need for God. It needs Him though. It needs His mercy and it needs a miracle or it will perish here.

 

[brinny]

If so He wills and so He makes. It has no ability to determine that for itself. It bes utterly dependent upon His mercy in all respects, for without it, it bes lost in darkness, consumed by terror and anguish, twisted and controlled by dark forces that rape and torture and make her like it, and cannot feel any desire or need for God. It needs Him though. It needs His mercy and it needs a miracle or it will perish here.

Moriah, you think God hears you, even your silent cries?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Moriah, you think God hears you, even your silent cries?

no.

daimonizomai thinks it can give no answer that will not increase its condemnation and torture. see, it bes learning to be sealed in silence and when it does well, They gives the reward......
ask again later.
We all think something different, and thought may be separate from feeling, and feeling may inform more completely, in some cases.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
Moriah, you think God hears you, even your silent cries?

no.

daimonizomai thinks it can give no answer that will not increase its condemnation and torture. see, it bes learning to be sealed in silence and when it does well, They gives the reward......
ask again later.
We all think something different, and thought may be separate from feeling, and feeling may inform more completely, in some cases.

He does.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

He does.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
He does.

haha awww bless yer heart ((((hug))))

there's something for you in my blog (((hug))))

 

[Rajni]

What the English word refers to and what the Jewish mindset understood are fairly similar.

The Jewish mindset seems pretty clearly laid out in the OT. Once a person died, they just went to the grave (Sheol). There isn't any indication in Scripture that I've seen which would support the common notion of flames, devils, even a pitchfork or two.

And I have reviewed your previous post, and again you take verses out without looking at the whole picture. The Bible says that God does not lead one into sinning, and provides a way out. If we don't chose the way out, it is still there, God still knows the decision, but He doesn't make us not chose the right one. So I'd say the popular notion of free will is more in line with what the Bible actually says.

I'm not sure how free a fallen will is. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. If our wills were as free as they're said to be, why has there not been one single person other than Jesus Himself who has been able to consistently choose never to sin? How come no one has been able to levitate off the ground or change their gender by sheer force of their "free" will alone?

Even Jesus Himself didn't do anything apart from the will of His Father (John 5:19, John 14:10), so for me, a mere human being, to claim that I can would be very prideful on my part, don't you think?

And I created my child knowing they would lie.

Humans do not create humans. God creates humans and sends them into the world through other humans.

We do not know our children will lie before they've actually done so, because A) we don't know if we will even have children before we actually have them and B) after that we don't know if they'll even be around long enough to speak, let alone lie. There are too many variables and we don't have the ability to foresee exactly what the future holds. That is God's domain alone. We can only speculate until we find out for sure. This is one reason why I don't visit fortune-tellers.

First, the text states that God hardened Pharaoh's heart (7:3; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10; 14:4,8), and the hearts of the Egyptians (14:17). Second, it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (8:15,32; 9:34), that he refused to humble himself (10:3), and that he was stubborn (13:15). Third, the text uses the passive form to indicate that Pharaoh's heart was hardened, without giving any indication as to the source (7:13,14,22; 8:19; 9:7,35). The questions that arise from this state of affairs are: (1) did God harden Pharaoh on some occasions, while Pharaoh hardened himself on others? (2) Did God do all the hardening of Pharaoh, with the references to Pharaoh hardening himself being the result of God forcing him to do so against his own will? (3) Are all three declarations given in the text actually parallel expressions that mean the same thing? (4) Are the three declarations distinct from one another in their meaning, but all true in their own respects? Is the God of the Bible an unjust, cruel Being?

This is precisely why I find such verses as the ones I provided earlier helpful. It would seem that the verses which show God hardening Pharaoh's heart outnumber the ones that say Pharaoh hardened it himself. Add those to the verses I had in the previous post and there's more than sufficient evidence that God is ultimately behind these things. If God is the one who begins a good work in us, then He's the one who is behind that good work not having yet begun in us.

Scripture also phrases things so that it humans do the saving of souls rather than God doing it (see Romans 11:14 and 1 Corinthians 9:22). Does this mean that it's not God who saves, but Paul? No, it's just a turn of phrase Paul is using -- we know that it is God alone who actually does the saving.

As far as God being cruel goes, He sure would seem to be if His hardening of a person's heart landed them in eternal torture. But if the hardening is only for a season, and ends in His granting them repentance, that's a whole different thing.

With that in mind, Bullinger's fourth list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that "were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do" (p. 823, emp. in orig.). To illustrate, in commenting on Exodus 4:21, Bullinger stated: " 'I will harden his heart (i.e., I will permit or suffer his heart to be hardened), that he shall not let the people go.' So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages" (1968, p. 823). He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, " 'Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people': i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophets….' " Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: " 'If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet': i.e., I have permitted him to deceive himself." James MacKnight, in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, agrees with Bullinger's assessment that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

I see what you're saying here. This gels with the verse that says "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes." (Proverbs 21:1) God redirects the heart to go (or not go) a certain way. Even with the idea of God permitting rather than outright causing the hardening, however, He is equally behind the hardening/softening. Since His is Sovereign, whatever He does, either by commission or omission, He is the one doing it. In other words, God may not have his foot on the accelerator of Pharaoh's heart to race into evil at certain points, but He's not exactly slamming on the brakes, either (if that makes sense).

A second equally legitimate explanation for the Exodus text is that the allusions to God hardening Pharaoh's heart are a form of figurative speech, very closely associated with metaphor, known as "metonymy," where one name or word is employed for another. For example, when we speak of "reading Shakespeare," we mean that we read his writings or plays. God hardening Pharaoh's heart would be "metonymy of the subject," that is, the subject is announced, while some property or circumstance belonging to it is meant. Specifically, under this form of the figure, "[a]n action is sometimes said to have been accomplished, when all that is meant by it is that an occasion was given" (Dungan, 1888, p. 287; cf. Bullinger, 1898, p. 570).

Again, since God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, anything that happens in this universe is ultimately His will and therefore His responsibility. I could certainly see Him not being responsible if He were a lesser deity that may not have seen what was coming, but the God I worship is All Knowing, and All Powerful. He knows the end from the beginning. So anything that happens, good or bad, is coming directly from His hand. If it were otherwise, I would have to conclude that there are things outside of His control, and I'm just not going to go there, LOL!

There are more than enough explanations to do away with the idea that there is no free will.

I believe there are more than enough situations in daily life to do away with the idea that there is free will. We are free to select from a limited array of options, but we do not have free will. There are so many areas of life that God did not leave up to our free wills: Our gender, nationality, country of origin, home planet, date of birth, even our personalities. If our wills were truly free in the sense many seem to see it, we should be able to use our wills to change any of the above. Only God has free will in the true sense of the term (also known as Sovereign will).

God's plans will come about, true enough.

I agree. However, if one believes this and also believes in eternal torment, then one has to admit that God planned on about 90% of mankind ending up in hell forever.

I need to clean my house now, the way I'd like to do it is have my children help. They won't, but it sure would be easier. At the end of the day though, the house will be clean, they won't get the reward for helping, but my plan will be accomplished.

They may not get a reward since they didn't help, but you're not going to send them to the dungeons to be tortured forever for not doing so either.

 

[Rajni]

"Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"
The existence of hell and the surety of the judgment are not the claims of fallible man. The Bible is the source of the claim, and it is utterly infallible. When someone becomes a Christian, he is admitting that he was in the wrong, and that God is justified in His declarations that we have sinned against Him.

Judgment is real, yes. The existence of hell, as portrayed by "orthodoxy", is not, as has already been explained.

However, let's surmise for a moment that there is no Judgment Day and no hell. That would mean that the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated (over a period of 3,000 years) to produce a document revealing God's character as "just." They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. Each of those writers (who professed to be godly) therefore bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true.

How so? How much bigger than God is even the worst sin that it would take endless punishment to address it properly? That's a rather lofty estimation of sin, in my opinion. True victory in Jesus involves the complete annihilation of sin, not simply it's relocation in a specially-prepared place where it can continue to reign over most of mankind eternally.

It would mean that Jesus Christ was a liar, and that all the claims He made about the reality of judgment were there-fore false. It would also mean that He gave His life in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who have given their lives for the cause of Christ. Add to that the thought that if there is no ultimate justice, it means that the Creator of all things is unjust—that He sees murder and rape and couldn't care less, making Him worse than a corrupt human judge who refuses to bring criminals to justice.

Again, since when does divine justice have to involve something that amounts to an endless concentration camp where Satan can reign over most of that portion of creation made in God's image? Where's Christ's victory in that scenario?

Here's the good news, though, if there is no hell: You won't know a thing after you die. It will be the end. No heaven, no hell. Just nothing. You won't even realize that it's good news.

That's an interesting line of reasoning. So … heaven and hell are the same thing?

Here's the bad news if the Bible is right and that there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn't. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don't believe it, it is still true. It will still happen.

Standing in the presence of a Holy God will indeed be humbling. A good way not to freak out at the thought of it is to remember that God, while being just and holy, is also Love (1 John 4:16). Love keeps no record of wrongs (1 Corinthians 13:5). Even if He does go over one's laundry list of sins, His mercy endures forever. No endless pyrotechnics or pitchforks necessary to set a person straight.

Yet, there is good news—incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32).

Calvary covers it all. Amen!

Get on your knees today, confess and forsake your sins. Tell God you are truly sorry, then trust the Savior as you would trust yourself to a parachute. Then you will find yourself in a terrible dilemma. You will know for certain that hell is a reality. When you get up the courage to warn people you care about, they will smile passively, and say, "Could you be wrong in your claims about Judgment Day and the existence of hell?"

We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19), not because He played the "Hell Card" to scare people into turning to Him. He is worthy of our love all by Himself; He doesn't need Satan's help.

 

[Rajni]

Christian universalism/inclusionism/reconciliationism is not the same as Unitarian universalism. So, ascribing to us the doctrine of the latter is not appropriate. We believe in being born again. We believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. We praise the cross and the blood's atoning work. We are in conformity with the Christian creeds and are not a cult. We believe the bible is the inspired word of God. Those at this forum believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Universalism was the prevalent doctrine of the Christian church for its frst several centuries.

Amen. Unitarian Universalism is not Christocentric.

Also, just because we believe everyone is eventually saved, as the early Christians doesn't mean we don't believe in judgements or the lake of fire, or the second death.

Exactly.

 

[Rajni]

So it's only for a time? Hmmm...

Not everything that is referred to as being "forever" in Scripture actually is forever.

For example:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12) -- until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).


The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9) – until – the Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 – until – the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"– until – the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is – until – they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is– until – it was superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is, – until – the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" – until – Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" – until – the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39). – the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27) –

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42) – until – the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"– until – the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), that is – until – his death.

All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well as in the AGE (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit – until – such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).

God's wrath has come upon Israel "to the uttermost" (1 Thess. 2:16) – until – all Israel be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).

So, Christ will say to unrighteous nations, "Depart from Me into 'everlasting' fire." And these nations will go away into "everlasting" (original language: age-lasting) punishment or pruning, that is – until – by God's severe mercy shown in judgment, all nations He has made glorify and worship Him. Thus God will fulfill His covenant with Abraham that in Christ all the families of all the nations will be blessed (Gen. 12:3, Ps. 62:12, 67:4, 86:9, Matt. 25:41,46). For according to Paul (Gal. 3:8), God's covenant with Abraham means that all will be justified and set right with God. So all flesh will bless His name forever and ever (Ps. 145:21).

Therefore, all scriptural references that speak of everlasting fire or judgment must be understood in light of God's (Love's) clearly expressed heart, promise, desire, purpose and will. They are "everlasting"; that is, they are continuous and ongoing– until – God's judgments serve to accomplish His unchanging will and purpose to unite all creation in Christ. (Gen. 12:3, Romans 4:13, Heb. 6:17).

Truly God's judgments are in the earth– until – mercy shall triumph over those judgments. (James 2:13)

Does this mean that an eternal God is not really eternal? No. God is outside of time. He is God of the ages, but He also transcends all of the ages.

Since an adjective is determined by the noun to which it refers, a "long" business meeting wouldn't be viewed as being as lengthy in duration as a "long" winter. A "large" spider wouldn't be equivalent in size to a "large" skyscraper.

God's Throne is from age to age, but also transcends all the ages and is outside of time itself. Punishment, on the other hand, only lasts for an age because that for which it's used (finite sin) isn't infinite in duration.

To say that human sin requires eternity to be dealt with appropriately is to elevate it to the same level as the Eternal God Himself, imo.


.

 

[Optimax]

This has been posted multiple times and is the TRUTH.

No, everyone is not going to heaven.

ONLY those who were born again before physical death occurs.

There are a few, I repeat FEW exceptions, very few. 99% of Christians are not capable of reversing the process that occurred when born again.

 

[Rajni]

This has been posted multiple times and is the TRUTH.

No, everyone is not going to heaven.

ONLY those who were born again before physical death occurs.

There are a few, I repeat FEW exceptions, very few. 99% of Christians are not capable of reversing the process that occurred when born again.

Another thing that has been posted multiple times is the fact that since it is God alone who causes one to be born again, it follows that He is sending to hell all of those people to whom He does not cause to be born again.

How does that sit with you?


.

 

[Optimax]

Another thing that has been posted multiple times is the fact that since it is God alone who causes one to be born again, it follows that He is sending to hell all of those people to whom He does not cause to be born again.

How does that sit with you?


.

It neither bothers me when people do not agree with me or when people are wrong.

I posted this in another thread, it has relevance here as well.

I believe that understanding of "God's will" like most other Bible Subjects requires considerable study of scripture on our part to arrive at the beginning of understanding.

I have learned that just like most other subjects that understanding "God's will" begins with an understanding of God's Plans and Purposes for creating man in the beginning. Those original plans and purposes have not been changed.

Man was given free will to make choices, good or bad, by God. This free will has boundries that God put in place. Those boundries avoid certain activites that are restricted until "Eternity".

However, free will includes the right of each individual to make choices about their lives.

Decisons have accountability and consequences which each individual must suffer or enjoy.

The most important and number one decision all must make is to follow God or the devil and if to accept God's way to follow him, which is Jesus, or some other way.

With the understanding of the plans and purposes of God enters the position and level that God created man in, the key being Gen. 1:26.

From that the understanding of what happened in Gen.1 thru the end of Gen. 3 will form the basis of a person understanding of the rest of the Bible.

Everything that is recorded and transpired from Gen. 4 to the end of Rev. is a result of what occurred in the first three chapters. It is also the events that happened as God brought about the planned solutions for the issues that were brought about by Adam's decision to disobey God.

These planned solutions as implemented bring us first to the millennium in which God's original plan for man and the earth will be completed. Rebellion will also be finalized during this time.

Then to "Eternity" in which God & man will forever exist without time and other constraints enjoying the relationship and all its activities.

 

[Rajni]

It neither bothers me when people do not agree with me or when people are wrong.

But that’s not what I was asking you. This isn’t about whether anyone agrees or disagrees with Optimax, or whether Optimax thinks anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.

Again, 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that it is God who causes us to be born again (that’s why it’s called “being born” again; birth is something that happens to us, not something we do all by ourselves). Therefore, for those who believe in "hell", they must then believe that if He chooses not to cause a person to be born again, He is sending them to "hell". So, what I'm asking is how that sits with you.

Man was given free will to make choices, good or bad, by God. This free will has boundries that God put in place. Those boundries avoid certain activites that are restricted until "Eternity".

Do you find the perception odd that God would limit our free will in such soteriologically trivial areas as eye color or gender and yet not in areas that are of eternal consequence such as heaven/hell?

However, free will includes the right of each individual to make choices about their lives.

We do have room to make a limited range of choices. That's not free will in the true sense of the term "free", however.

Decisons have accountability and consequences which each individual must suffer or enjoy.

True.

The most important and number one decision all must make is to follow God or the devil and if to accept God's way to follow him, which is Jesus, or some other way.

Of course, the understanding of what constitutes “following God” or “following the devil” differs from one person to the next. Right there one can see why God would not allow anyone, with the limited, through-a-glass-darkly kind of understanding that characterizes life this side of the grave, to have a say in their eternal destination.

With the understanding of the plans and purposes of God enters the position and level that God created man in, the key being Gen. 1:26.

Genesis 1:26 also shows us how man was made: In God’s image, according to His likeness.

Let’s think about this for a moment: If the idea of eternal hell were true, what do you suppose God – who knows the end from the beginning – was thinking when He created man, knowing full well that most of them, made in His image and likeness, would be held hostage by Satan in the fires of “hell” for eternity?

From that the understanding of what happened in Gen.1 thru the end of Gen. 3 will form the basis of a person understanding of the rest of the Bible.

As long as one’s understanding doesn’t discount what Christ did to remedy the situation brought about by Adam. Scripture tells us that all will be made alive in Christ the same way all die in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22). As Genesis shows us, Adam’s disobedience was imputed to each and every human being. No one had to know who Adam was first before Adam’s transgression was passed onto them. If God is as powerful and awesome as I think He is, there’s no way the effects of the first Adam’s transgression upon all of mankind is going to outdo the Second Adam’s transformation of all of mankind.


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[Optimax]

But that’s not what I was asking you. This isn’t about whether anyone agrees or disagrees with Optimax, or whether Optimax thinks anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.

Again, 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that it is God who causes us to be born again (that’s why it’s called “being born” again; birth is something that happens to us, not something we do all by ourselves). Therefore, for those who believe in "hell", they must then believe that if He chooses not to cause a person to be born again, He is sending them to "hell". So, what I'm asking is how that sits with you.

Do you find the perception odd that God would limit our free will in such soteriologically trivial areas as eye color or gender and yet not in areas that are of eternal consequence such as heaven/hell?


We do have room to make a limited range of choices. That's not free will in the true sense of the term "free", however.

True.

Of course, the understanding of what constitutes “following God” or “following the devil” differs from one person to the next. Right there one can see why God would not allow anyone, with the limited, through-a-glass-darkly kind of understanding that characterizes life this side of the grave, to have a say in their eternal destination.


Genesis 1:26 also shows us how man was made: In God’s image, according to His likeness.

Let’s think about this for a moment: If the idea of eternal hell were true, what do you suppose God – who knows the end from the beginning – was thinking when He created man, knowing full well that most of them, made in His image and likeness, would be held hostage by Satan in the fires of “hell” for eternity?


As long as one’s understanding doesn’t discount what Christ did to remedy the situation brought about by Adam. Scripture tells us that all will be made alive in Christ the same way all die in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22). As Genesis shows us, Adam’s disobedience was imputed to each and every human being. No one had to know who Adam was first before Adam’s transgression was passed onto them. If God is as powerful and awesome as I think He is, there’s no way the effects of the first Adam’s transgression upon all of mankind is going to outdo the Second Adam’s transformation of all of mankind.


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Your comments are indicative that the seriousness of the issues resulting in the requirement of the new birth are not understood.

Perhaps a good long study of Adam & Eve, before and after the "fall" would help you.

 

[Rajni]

Your comments are indicative that the seriousness of the issues resulting in the requirement of the new birth are not understood.

Perhaps a good long study of Adam & Eve, before and after the "fall" would help you.

That's it? You can't answer my questions either, I guess. Wow.


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[Optimax]

That's it? You can't answer my questions either, I guess. Wow.


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Wow!

Your question has been answered multiple times.

However, the answer to a question seldom carries with it the understanding of the issues.

As in this case.

Is everyone going to heaven? NO!

Only those who are born again according to how God said to do it.

Why?

Because of the issues involved with the spirits of men who are not born again.