Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Rajni]

Your question has been answered multiple times. However, the answer to a question seldom carries with it the understanding of the issues.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I had more than one question, none of which have been answered.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I trust you have an understanding of the issues, so why not try to answer -- directly -- my questions?

[/FONT] [FONT=verdana,sans-serif]If you don't wish to answer them, then by all means don't, but please don't respond with vague statements about what you consider others' lack of understanding the issues, etc. -- statements which themselves only appear to dodge the issues.

Here are the questions again, for your convenience:[/FONT]
[/FONT]

• [FONT=verdana,sans-serif]1 Peter 1:3 tells us that it is God who causes us to be born again (that's why it's called "being born" again; birth is something that happens to us, not something we do all by ourselves). Therefore, for those who believe in "hell", they must then believe that if He chooses not to cause a person to be born again, He is sending them to "hell". So, what I'm asking is: How does that sit with you?[/FONT]

• Do you find the perception odd that God would limit our free will in such soteriologically trivial areas as eye color or gender and yet not in areas that are of eternal consequence such as heaven/hell?

• Let's think about this for a moment: If the idea of eternal hell were true, what do you suppose God – who knows the end from the beginning – was thinking when He created man, knowing full well that most of them, made in His image and likeness, would be held hostage by Satan in the fires of "hell" for eternity?

.

 

[DeborahsSong]

So it's only for a time? Hmmm...


"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).

THE PASSAGE SHOULD READ "NOW TO THE KING OF THE AGES, THE INCORRUPTIBLE, INVISIBLE ONLY WISE GOD (IS) HONOUR AND GLORY-TO THE AGES OF THE AGES! AMEN." YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE. DR YOUNG, ALSO KNOWN FOR YOUNG'S CONCORDANCE, WAS A GREEK SCHOLAR. PAUL IS INDICATING THAT THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY GOD IS IN CHARGE. (WE NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT GOD DYING BECAUSE PAUL NOTES IN THE PASSAGE THAT HE IS INCORRUPTIBLE.)

". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).

THE ABOVE TRANSLATION CONFLICTS WITH SCRIPTURE. IT SHOULD READ " ... TO THE AGES" FOR CHRIST DOES NOT REIGN FOREVER AND EVER. IN I COR 15:24 HE HANDS OVER ALL REIGN TO THE FATHER. CORRECTLY TRANSLATING AION TO REFLECT ITS TEMPORAL NATURE AVOIDS THIS CONFLICT.

IN REGARD TO EVERY OCCURENCE OF AION AND IT'S COGNATES, THE WORD HAS A TEMPORAL MEANING.

IN REGARD TO REV 14:11, SEE ABOVE. ALSO, IF GOD WANTED TO STATE THAT IT APPLIED BEYOND THE REACH OF HUMAN HISTORY, HE WOULD HAVE USED A GREEK WORD THAT REALLY MEANS ETERNAL OR FOREVER, NOT ONE THAT IS TEMPORAL.

Then of course there's Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

(NOTE: YOU CAN'T HAVE CHAFF WITHOUT WHEAT.) THE CHAFF IS BURNED IN UNQUENCHABLE FIRE, WHICH MEANS THAT THE FIRE BURNS UNTIL EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE BURNED IS BURNED. IT CANNOT BE STOPPED. IF "UNQUENCHABLE" MEANT THAT THE FIRE BURNED FOREVER, THAN THERE WOULD BE CONFLICTS WITH OTHER SCRIPTURAL PASSAGES, SUCH AS EZEK 20:45-48 AND JER 17:27. ALSO JOSEPHUS IN 80 AD WROTE THAT THE FIRE FROM THE TEMPLE RUINS HAD FINALLY GONE OUT, YET HE TERMED IT AN UNQUENCABLE FIRE IN THE SAME PASSAGE.

 

[Svt4Him]

Let me just cut to the main issue:

Again, since God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, anything that happens in this universe is ultimately His will and therefore His responsibility.

So it's God will we sin? Hmm, I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'm also pretty sure there's a perfect will of God and an acceptable will. And I'm equally sure the Bible talks about what God longed to do but was unable because of the response of the people. Seems that not everything is His will. Perhaps you can explain why omniscient and omnipotent means you micromanage everything according to your will? But there are more than enough studies for and against this, so nothing posted here will change your mind.

I could certainly see Him not being responsible if He were a lesser deity that may not have seen what was coming, but the God I worship is All Knowing, and All Powerful. He knows the end from the beginning. So anything that happens, good or bad, is coming directly from His hand. If it were otherwise, I would have to conclude that there are things outside of His control, and I'm just not going to go there, LOL!

But you have just limited the options, and in doing so have used a fallacy. It's not a matter of whether God is powerful enough to see what's happening, nor whether He knows the beginning from the end. Nor is it a matter of what control He has. The issue is whether everything that happens is God's will, and sorry, I don't believe that. You can talk about how your God is better because He's in control, whereas I think God is both holy and just and I'm thankful that I can clearly see the difference between the works of darkness verses the works of light.

I believe there are more than enough situations in daily life to do away with the idea that there is free will. We are free to select from a limited array of options, but we do not have free will. There are so many areas of life that God did not leave up to our free wills: Our gender, nationality, country of origin, home planet, date of birth, even our personalities. If our wills were truly free in the sense many seem to see it, we should be able to use our wills to change any of the above. Only God has free will in the true sense of the term (also known as Sovereign will).

Wow, I though a free will was the ability to make choices. Seems if a baby can't chose their sex they can't make choices? Perhaps we have two different views on what free will is, as I see there are examples of how we have this every day.

I agree. However, if one believes this and also believes in eternal torment, then one has to admit that God planned on about 90% of mankind ending up in hell forever.

Nope, God wishes all would repent. But will all? No. God's fault? Well, the Bible says they can't blame God when they sin, therefore there's really no one else to blame. Wide is the gate though.

They may not get a reward since they didn't help, but you're not going to send them to the dungeons to be tortured forever for not doing so either.

True enough. The punishment must fit the crime, which is what I've been saying all along.

 

[Rajni]

So it's God will we sin?

It would seem that sin was part of the overall plan. God literally enclosed us in sin:
Romans 11:32: “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.”

Seems that not everything is His will.

Isaiah 46:10 : “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';”

Perhaps you can explain why omniscient and omnipotent means you micromanage everything according to your will?

Why not? He’s God. He’s the Potter, we are the clay. That Scriptural analogy illustrates micromanagement very effectively, I think!

But you have just limited the options, and in doing so have used a fallacy. It's not a matter of whether God is powerful enough to see what's happening, nor whether He knows the beginning from the end. Nor is it a matter of what control He has. The issue is whether everything that happens is God's will, and sorry, I don't believe that. You can talk about how your God is better because He's in control, whereas I think God is both holy and just and I'm thankful that I can clearly see the difference between the works of darkness verses the works of light.

I don’t believe that anything owes it’s existence to anyone other than God, because I don’t believe there are any other gods out there creating things. So if whatever-it-is exists, God put it there.

As far as works of darkness and works of light go, what do these Scriptures tell you:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
​

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
​

Please know that this is not to "blame" God for evil, but to simply clarify that evil is a tool He evidently not only uses, but created for the purpose sculpting this masterpiece called life, much as a painter doesn't just use light pastels and shades of white, but also uses dark greys, blacks, blues, greens .... Evil isn’t something that cropped up out of the blue unexpectedly and outside of God’s direct control.

Wow, I though a free will was the ability to make choices. Seems if a baby can't chose their sex they can't make choices? Perhaps we have two different views on what free will is, as I see there are examples of how we have this every day.

We are able to make choices, I’m not saying we can’t. But our wills are limited by divinely-established parameters. A will is only as free as that. You can will anything you want, but unless you have a perfect record of bringing about everything that you will, in exactly the way you willed it, your will is not free in the true sense of the term. Only God's Sovereign will can do this.

On top of that, what we choose to do is influenced by things beyond our direct control. For example, at an ice cream shop, if they have only chocolate and vanilla ice cream, we cannot use our wills to bring about strawberry ice cream at that shop. We would have to leave that shop and order strawberry elsewhere. If we had true free (i.e., Sovereign) will, though, we could ask for strawberry at the shop that has only chocolate and vanilla, and we'd get strawberry there, without having to go anywhere else first. A truly free will not only wants something, it actually gets whatever it wants, when it wants it, and where it wants it.

Besides all that, I don’t see how anyone can insist that humans have a “free” will if they're either "slaves” to sin or “slaves” to Christ, according to Scripture.

Nope, God wishes all would repent.

If you’re referring to 1Tim. 2:4, it’s more than wishful thinking on God’s part. He “will have” (Greek ethelo) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He intends this to happen.

Some Christians talk about mere humans “believing it and receiving it”, “naming it and claiming it”, and “speaking things into existence.” Now, if that’s true, how on earth can anyone say that God Himself can’t do these things? If God names it, He’s gonna claim it. If God believes it, He’s gonna receive it. God is in the business of speaking things into existence unfailingly. So who would I be to insist otherwise?

But will all? No.

God says otherwise, methinks.

God's fault? Well, the Bible says they can't blame God when they sin, therefore there's really no one else to blame.

God has no faults, so He’s clear. Which verse are you referring to regarding not blaming God when we sin (I know we shouldn’t 'blame' Him for anything, but I’m just curious as to the Scripture reference here).

True enough. The punishment must fit the crime, which is what I've been saying all along.

Okay... you believe that the punishment should fit the crime. Fantastic! So … how do you gel that belief with the idea that finite sins committed over the span of a finite earthly life warrant infinite torture over the span of an endless afterlife? To me, that seems like punishment that far outweighs the crime.

 

[DeborahsSong]

*The punishment must fit the crime? Those who commit the sin of unbelief have no say in the matter. This is because no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. God blinds eyes and stops ears. Man,as a slave to sin, is not capable of lifting himself by his own bootstraps from the sin of unbelief.

*Darkness serves a very good purpose, in that it allows us to appreciate light. Hate helps us to understand love, etc. To train His children to be sons of God, and to really know him, God determined that man would eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

*My take on the baby analogy is that just as you have no choice in being born a son of Adam, likewise, you have no choice in being born a son of God. God plans one to follow the other. The mistake is in thinking that this birthing must all take place in this lifetime.

 

[Optimax]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I had more than one question, none of which have been answered.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I trust you have an understanding of the issues, so why not try to answer -- directly -- my questions?

[/FONT] [FONT=verdana,sans-serif]If you don't wish to answer them, then by all means don't, but please don't respond with vague statements about what you consider others' lack of understanding the issues, etc. -- statements which themselves only appear to dodge the issues.

Here are the questions again, for your convenience:[/FONT]
[/FONT]

• [FONT=verdana,sans-serif]1 Peter 1:3 tells us that it is God who causes us to be born again (that's why it's called "being born" again; birth is something that happens to us, not something we do all by ourselves). Therefore, for those who believe in "hell", they must then believe that if He chooses not to cause a person to be born again, He is sending them to "hell". So, what I'm asking is: How does that sit with you?[/FONT]

.

Maybe some of these translations will help you understand 1 pet. 1:3

1 Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
KJV

1 Pe 1:3
Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
AMP

1 Pe 1:3
All honor to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is by his boundless mercy that God has given us the privilege of being born again. Now we live with a wonderful expectation because Jesus Christ rose again from the dead.
NLT

1 Pe 1:3
Let us give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Because of his great mercy he gave us new life by raising Jesus Christ from death. This fills us with a living hope,
TEV

 

[Rajni]

Maybe some of these translations will help you understand 1 pet. 1:3

1 Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
KJV

1 Pe 1:3
Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
AMP

1 Pe 1:3
All honor to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is by his boundless mercy that God has given us the privilege of being born again. Now we live with a wonderful expectation because Jesus Christ rose again from the dead.
NLT

1 Pe 1:3
Let us give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Because of his great mercy he gave us new life by raising Jesus Christ from death. This fills us with a living hope,
TEV​

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
I already have an understanding of 1 Peter 1:3, and the additional translations you posted are very helpful in conveying what I'm saying, which is that being born again is something that God does to us -- He literally "begets" us ("hath begotten" as the KJV rightly puts it) into new life. Now, are you willing to answer the question I asked you previously regarding that verse (1 Peter 1:3): [/FONT]

• 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that it is God who causes us to be born again (that's why it's called "being born" again; birth is something that happens to us, not something we do all by ourselves). Therefore, for those who believe in "hell", they must then believe that if He chooses not to cause a person to be born again, He is sending them to "hell". How do you, as someone who believes in eternal torment in hell, deal with that fact?

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Again, no pressure if you don't wish to respond to the question, but please don't worry too much about my understanding of this verse; I already understand it quite well. [/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif] I'm just curious to know how you, as a believer in eternal hell, reconcile the fact that it is God who does the choosing for salvation with the idea of eternal torment.





[/FONT]

 

[Rajni]

*My take on the baby analogy is that just as you have no choice in being born a son of Adam, likewise, you have no choice in being born a son of God. God plans one to follow the other. The mistake is in thinking that this birthing must all take place in this lifetime.

. That's why it's referred to as being born again -- "birth" being an event in which a person is a passive participant.

If Jesus wanted to convey that our new life in Him was the result of self-effort, then a term other than "being born" would have been used here, such as "Unless a man 'climbs the mountain'/'fasts for forty days'/sacrifices a bull', he cannot see the Kingdom of God." But He said that no one can see the Kingdom of God unless they are born again. Something Divinely-initiated must be done to a person first.

 

[DeborahsSong]

Chaela, thanks for your wonderful posts. (I'd forum bless you if I knew how.) Isn't it sublime how God has set things up so that flesh cannot boast! There's no "I chose Jesus, wonderful me" stuff, since that is a work.

Why did post 706 by Optimax quote a verse that supports your position? Not sure if you both are on the same page, but I might just be dense.

 

[Optimax]

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]
I already have an understanding of 1 Peter 1:3, and the additional translations you posted are very helpful in conveying what I'm saying, which is that being born again is something that God does to us -- He literally "begets" us ("hath begotten" as the KJV rightly puts it) into new life. Now, are you willing to answer the question I asked you previously regarding that verse (1 Peter 1:3): [/FONT]

• 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that it is God who causes us to be born again (that's why it's called "being born" again; birth is something that happens to us, not something we do all by ourselves). Therefore, for those who believe in "hell", they must then believe that if He chooses not to cause a person to be born again, He is sending them to "hell". How do you, as someone who believes in eternal torment in hell, deal with that fact?

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Again, no pressure if you don't wish to respond to the question, but please don't worry too much about my understanding of this verse; I already understand it quite well. [/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif] I'm just curious to know how you, as a believer in eternal hell, reconcile the fact that it is God who does the choosing for salvation with the idea of eternal torment.





[/FONT]

O course God does it. He does it and made it available because we cannot save ourselves.

BUT, God does not do the choosing of who will be born again.

It is for whosoever will.

That means there are the whosoever will nots as well.

When a person makes the choice to receive Jesus then they are born again.

It takes the will of a person to make that choice before they are born again.

When a person chooses to receive Jesus of course God then by "causes" them to be born again.

Being born again will not happen until a person wants or wills to.

 

[Svt4Him]

Isaiah 46:10 : “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';”

Sorry, I have to keep coming back to this. Having God's purpose completed is exactly the same as my house example. My house will be cleaned if my children help or not, but it certainly isn't my will that they don't help. God's will will be done, agreed. Not everything that happens while it is being done is God's will, nor does this prove it is.

*The punishment must fit the crime? Those who commit the sin of unbelief have no say in the matter. This is because no man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. God blinds eyes and stops ears. Man,as a slave to sin, is not capable of lifting himself by his own bootstraps from the sin of unbelief.

God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble. Always has, always will. As for the sin of unbelief, we all have a chance to repent, we all have a chance to turn, we chose not to. You can blame God, but I'm pretty sure the Bible says when we are tempted to sin, let us not say it's God's doing.

 

[DeborahsSong]

God does not do the choosing? Then what about predestination? Seems like the Calvinists and Inclusionists agree that God is sovereign in this matter, the former believing that the elect are a subset of humanity, the latter believing they comprise the entire set. Those who hold to choice tend toward the Arminian position. I believe this is correct, but can't claim to be a real student on the matter.

Jesus weighed in on this topic, "You didn't choose me, I chose you." Paul concurred in Eph 1:4-5 "according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will...."

Human choice is something of a mirage. Take Paul, on his way to Damascus to arrest the believers. He testifies in Gal 1:14 that "he was exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers", but goes on to say "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, I conferred not with flesh and blood." vss 15,16.

Paul was an antichrist. By his own admission, he was a blasphemer. He was a persecutor of the saints. He was a wicked man! He didn't "choose Jesus". But all along, God had a different purpose and destiny for him, and a time for revealing it. God is not a respecter of persons. What he imposed on Paul, he will impose on the entire human race in various ways and at his own timing. Since "all are living to him", death isn't an obstacle to this agenda.

 

[Rajni]

God does not do the choosing? Then what about predestination? Seems like the Calvinists and Inclusionists agree that God is sovereign in this matter, the former believing that the elect are a subset of humanity, the latter believing they comprise the entire set. Those who hold to choice tend toward the Arminian position. I believe this is correct, but can't claim to be a real student on the matter.

Jesus weighed in on this topic, "You didn't choose me, I chose you." Paul concurred in Eph 1:4-5 "according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love, having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will...."

Human choice is something of a mirage. Take Paul, on his way to Damascus to arrest the believers. He testifies in Gal 1:14 that "he was exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers", but goes on to say "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, I conferred not with flesh and blood." vss 15,16.

Paul was an antichrist. By his own admission, he was a blasphemer. He was a persecutor of the saints. He was a wicked man! He didn't "choose Jesus". But all along, God had a different purpose and destiny for him, and a time for revealing it. God is not a respecter of persons. What he imposed on Paul, he will impose on the entire human race in various ways and at his own timing. Since "all are living to him", death isn't an obstacle to this agenda.

 

[Rajni]

BUT, God does not do the choosing of who will be born again.

Of course He does, just as He chose who would be born physically the first time around. The whole concept of birth involves a passive participation in the one being born, otherwise Jesus would have used another term for it that suggested more proactive involvement on the part of the one being transformed.

It is for whosoever will. That means there are the whosoever will nots as well.

"Whosoever will" do what? The passages about being born again don't say anything about "Whosoever will be born again." We don't will our spiritual birth any more than we did our physical birth.

When a person makes the choice to receive Jesus then they are born again. It takes the will of a person to make that choice before they are born again.

Then it would be called "choosing again" rather than "being born" again. If there were anything we could do to save ourselves (thereby making us our savior rather than Christ), the terminology suggesting "birth" would not have been used here.

When a person chooses to receive Jesus of course God then by "causes" them to be born again. Being born again will not happen until a person wants or wills to.

Then it's not "being born" again. Our physical begetting wasn't our decision, and neither is our spiritual begetting. Just as God decides who is going to enter the temporal world physically, He also decides who enters into the Kingdom of God spiritually. Again, that's why the term "being born" again is used, rather than some other terminology that would more effectively suggest some form of self-effort in the process.

Now, having said all that, let's say for the sake of argument that we do the choosing for salvation. This still doesn't get God "off the hook" as far as eternal torment goes, because even if one thinks that it's up to us to choose or reject God, one still has to grapple with the question of why God, in His Omnisicence, knowing the end from the beginning, would create someone in the first place knowing full well they would reject Him in the end anyway. So, even with the notion of freely choosing (or not) God, the fact that He is all-knowing and knows how each person's life is going to play out even before He creates them brings us right back to square one: He is essentially choosing who will and who won't go to "hell".




.

 

[Rajni]

Sorry, I have to keep coming back to this. Having God's purpose completed is exactly the same as my house example. My house will be cleaned if my children help or not, but it certainly isn't my will that they don't help. God's will will be done, agreed. Not everything that happens while it is being done is God's will, nor does this prove it is.

That line of reasoning would work really well if God weren't all-knowing. If He didn't know the end from the beginning, then we could comfortably accept that there are a gazillion things going on out there that just weren't part of His plan. But since God is Omniscient -- as well as Sovereign -- it has been well within His power and knowledge to cause things to operate in some other way. I believe that, if eternal torment in hell were what was at stake here, He would have run things a bit differently in order to prevent anyone from ending up there. Since I do not believe in an eternal "hell", however, even the most stubbornly unbelieving individual will have their Damascus Road Day, and even the worst suffering is, as Paul said, "light and momentary", and doesn't last forever. All shall be well for everyone in the end.

God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble. Always has, always will. As for the sin of unbelief, we all have a chance to repent, we all have a chance to turn, we chose not to. You can blame God, but I'm pretty sure the Bible says when we are tempted to sin, let us not say it's God's doing.

Well, if the following Scriptures are any indicator of God's standard method of operating ... And again, I'm not listing these verses to blame God. Rather, since we are the clay and He is the Potter, sometimes the clay needs some serious squishing around to get into the shape the potter wishes it to be in:

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house:

1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.


​

 

[Rajni]

Chaela, thanks for your wonderful posts. (I'd forum bless you if I knew how.) Isn't it sublime how God has set things up so that flesh cannot boast! There's no "I chose Jesus, wonderful me" stuff, since that is a work.

Thank *you*, Deborah! Your posts have been very edifying.

I agree, it's a relief to know that God has everything under control, and that nothing has ever happened or will happen that He didn't / doesn't know about.

Yes, even choosing Him isn't something we can boast about. In fact, Christians who (rightly) state that we go to heaven through no effort of our own are contradicting themselves when they say that people send themselves to hell. If it's not to our credit that we are saved, it cannot be to our discredit that we are forever doomed.

Why did post 706 by Optimax quote a verse that supports your position? Not sure if you both are on the same page, but I might just be dense.

I think he was trying to help by providing different English translations of the verse to assist me in understanding it. I often refer to a Hebrew/Greek Lexicon to get the actual thrust of a verse, and in the case of the born-again verse, it really is God who begets us spiritually. A baby cannot assist (either physically or spiritually) in it's own birth.



.

 

[DeborahsSong]

Over the last number of pages on this thread, the tone and content has been great. Personal attacks are blessedly missing. Also, appreciate how both sides are attempting to back up what they assert with scripture, rather than just pronouncing it "ex cathedral". Thanks for the tone!

 

[Optimax]

Of course He does, just as He chose who would be born physically the first time around. The whole concept of birth involves a passive participation in the one being born, otherwise Jesus would have used another term for it that suggested more proactive involvement on the part of the one being transformed.

"Whosoever will" do what? The passages about being born again don't say anything about "Whosoever will be born again." We don't will our spiritual birth any more than we did our physical birth.

Then it would be called "choosing again" rather than "being born" again. If there were anything we could do to save ourselves (thereby making us our savior rather than Christ), the terminology suggesting "birth" would not have been used here.

Then it's not "being born" again. Our physical begetting wasn't our decision, and neither is our spiritual begetting. Just as God decides who is going to enter the temporal world physically, He also decides who enters into the Kingdom of God spiritually. Again, that's why the term "being born" again is used, rather than some other terminology that would more effectively suggest some form of self-effort in the process.

Now, having said all that, let's say for the sake of argument that we do the choosing for salvation. This still doesn't get God "off the hook" as far as eternal torment goes, because even if one thinks that it's up to us to choose or reject God, one still has to grapple with the question of why God, in His Omnisicence, knowing the end from the beginning, would create someone in the first place knowing full well they would reject Him in the end anyway. So, even with the notion of freely choosing (or not) God, the fact that He is all-knowing and knows how each person's life is going to play out even before He creates them brings us right back to square one: He is essentially choosing who will and who won't go to "hell".
.

Jn 3:16-19

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
KJV


The scriptures plainly show that we have to make a choice.

To believe or not to believe.

 

[Rajni]

Jn 3:16-19

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
KJV


The scriptures plainly show that we have to make a choice.

To believe or not to believe.

KarenJoy had brought up the same passage earlier in this thread, in post #29. You can read my response to that in post #30, as it's the same response I would provide here.




.

 

[LeadWorship]

the question of why God, in His Omnisicence, knowing the end from the beginning, would create someone in the first place knowing full well they would reject Him in the end anyway.

Simple. He knows the beginning from the end. From the beginning He knew who would and would not follow Him. Knowing how things turn out doesn't always change the fact that you must get things started. What does the US Military call it... oh yeah, "collateral damage".