Is Everybody going to heaven?

[JimB]

The main objection I hear to our evangelical/fundamentalist/literalist interpretation of hell is that it is overkill. The idea that God would not only punish the wicked—including the guy who loves his wife and children, works hard, gives to the poor but who has never “accepted Jesus as his personal savior” (i.e., never walked the aisle or raised his hand for salvation like we are supposed to do), right along with Hitler and Stalin—but is going to be tortured endlessly, painfully, night and day, on and on, forever and ever, ages upon ages for something he failed to do in this brief snap of the fingers we call life, simply does not compute with the Apostle John’s repeated statement that “God is love.”

In a recent discussion with a friend (a believer in Christ, incidentally) who is struggling with the idea of hell, he said to me, “I can understand that love may discipline, even punish, a wrongdoer, but love does not torture them—forever.”

Nothing I said to the contrary was convincing to him and I have to admit, he has made me take another look at the metaphors the Bible uses for hell. At the moment, I am convinced only that hell, whatever and wherever it is, is a horrible place I would not want anyone to be.

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

 

[Rajni]

First off, I have a literalist point of view. So don't kill me for it.
I honestly feel like the hostility just went off the charts. Look, we can all agree believers in Christ are going to Heaven. How about we just wait till we get there to find out. Or at least can't we just calm down and stop fighting? There's a time for fighting and there's a time for healthy, calm debate. So can't we all just take a chill pill? 'Cause I'm getting really tired of this. Besides, we all have different opinions. Maybe we should just pray to God about it, and He'll show us the right answer. Besides, is this what God wants us to do? Fight over beliefs? Doesn't He want us to be an example for unbelievers?

I'm not sure where you're seeing hostility in recent posts. There was a bit in post #740 , where someone called other people's points "as idiotic as they come" followed by a very encouraging insertion of "Duh!" later in that same entry. That one was relatively hostile, yes. Other than that, it's been calm here. This is a debate thread, after all.




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[DeborahsSong]

Jimbeaux-thanks for the post. Indeed, our God is a refiner, not a barbecuer! If you want to look more into the matter, I recommend word studies, OT and NT on "fire". It opened my eyes, plus learning that the Greek text didn't support the idea of eternal punishment.

God has a really grand plan for his entire creation!

 

[HEisGoodalways]

Jimbeaux-thanks for the post. Indeed, our God is a refiner, not a barbecuer! If you want to look more into the matter, I recommend word studies, OT and NT on "fire". It opened my eyes, plus learning that the Greek text didn't support the idea of eternal punishment.

God has a really grand plan for his entire creation!

 

[HEisGoodalways]

"Repent yea therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:19-21).

The simple truth of the matter is this: Restitution means reconstitution, and the reconstitution of all things bespeaks the reconstituting of all things back into the unity, harmony and wholeness they had in God in that long-ago beginning when all things were created IN CHRIST JESUS. It means that God will restore to each man individually, and to all men collectively, the fullness of His nature, mind, will and purpose until there is no lack in anyone, anywhere in all the unbounded heavens. Every attribute of God will be so perfectly synchronized and balanced in every creature until there I are no excesses, no imbalances, no extremes, no diseases disorders disability, dis-tress, dis-aster, dis-obedience, dis-cord, dis-couragement, dis-harmony, dis-orientation, dis-union or dis-integration whatever. All the negative attitudes, emotions and state of being, the result of fragmentation, are swallowed up in HIS FULLNESS. The more we enter into Christ the more we enter into singleness, for He IS oneness in every aspect. "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" ( II Cor. 11:3). Literally, "from the SINGLENESS into the Christ."

As soon as Christ becomes the total Center of our life, and everything is swallowed up into Him, then He is all in all for us. We shall not stroll through the ages together just hand-in-hand, but He said, 'I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK IN THEM; and I will be their God and they shall be My people' (II Cor. 6:16). Furthermore, He has 'purposed in Himself; that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together IN ONE all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in Him' (Eph. 1:9-10). But where does the fulfillment of this purpose begin? IN A FIRSTFRUITS COMPANY. Those whom He apprehends and leads out from the midst of the world, and its corruptness, into a path of righteousness, to become HIS people. And then, every man in his own order, rank after rank, until all have been brought into the fullness of His life.


When Christ ascended on high after His resurrection, He led many captives out of the pit and also set forth this greater purpose: "Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS" (Eph. 4:9-10). The message is clear - redemption does not include only the salvation of mankind, wonderful and glorious as that aspect is, but it also includes the complete transformation of the entire universe so that God shall FILL ALL THINGS. There shall not be left one corner of this vast universe where He shall not be LORD AND KING. EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE SHALL BE RESTORED TO THE BEAUTIFUL HARMONY AND ORDER OF THE LOVE OF GOD. Indeed, HE SHALL FILL ALL THINGS SO THAT "GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL." And ALL will find its home again IN HIM. This, precious friend, is the RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS!

 

[Svt4Him]

Oh, right, wide is the gate that leads to heaven, and everyone will find it. Oh, wait...

If the punishment fits the crime, look at the crime. Is everyone in hell punished the same? No, Jesus Himself said that, so the hard working man who had never broken a single command in his whole life but never heard Jesus will not suffer the same fate as Hitler or a child killer, as emotional as that appeal sounds.

Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matthew 10:7-15)

 

[HighwayMan]

Oh, right, wide is the gate that leads to heaven, and everyone will find it. Oh, wait...

If the punishment fits the crime, look at the crime. Is everyone in hell punished the same? No, Jesus Himself said that, so the hard working man who had never broken a single command in his whole life but never heard Jesus will not suffer the same fate as Hitler or a child killer, as emotional as that appeal sounds.

Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matthew 10:7-15)

Certainly not everyone will find it in this life. But God's love does not expire when we do.

Oh and yeah, I'm sure the poor hard working man will be greatly relieved he is only burning in flames for all eternity because he did not hear what no one told him, while Adolf is really deep in the hottest lava. Great system we have going there.

 

[whatfor]

Oh, right, wide is the gate that leads to heaven, and everyone will find it. Oh, wait...

I was wondering how people seem to be missing that.

Why mention a narrow gate and how most won't make it , if we all do?

 

[HighwayMan]

I was wondering how people seem to be missing that.

Why mention a narrow gate and how most won't make it , if we all do?

Guess how many people are going to try and lead (morally) good lives if it says we'll all make it?

Regardless of which interpretation is true, what is clear is that back then (and, as evident, today) people need this form of fear in order to lead those good lives and "aim for the gate". Without it, we fall apart.

 

[DeborahsSong]

Oh, right, wide is the gate that leads to heaven, and everyone will find it. Oh, wait...

WHO IS SAYING THAT THE GATE IS ANYTHING BUT NARROW? JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY. IT TAKES TIME, INDEED AGES, TO GET ALL HIS OFFSPRING THROUGH THIS BIRTH CANAL.

If the punishment fits the crime, look at the crime. Is everyone in hell punished the same? No, Jesus Himself said that, so the hard working man who had never broken a single command in his whole life but never heard Jesus will not suffer the same fate as Hitler or a child killer, as emotional as that appeal sounds.

JESUS IS OPPOSED TO HARD WORKING MAN. DIDN'T HE TELL THOSE WHO WOULD APPROACH HIM ON SUCH A BASIS TO DEPART? FUTHERMORE, THOSE WHO "HAD NEVER BROKEN A SINGLE COMMAND" COMPRISE A NULL SET. ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT IS NECESSARY TO REFINE A HITLER OR A DEBORRAHSSONG, BUT TRUST HIM TO SEE THAT BOTH ARE SALTED WITH FIRE. WHAT NEEDS TO BE BURNT AWAY, WILL BE BURNT AWAY.

Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matthew 10:7-15)

WHY IS THIS SO? WASN'T THE PROBLEM WITH "THAT TOWN" UNBELIEF?
GOD'S JUDGMENTS ARE DESIGNED TO ATTAIN HIS END, WHICH IS THE SALVATION OF ALL MEN.

 

[Jpark]

Hitler, Stalin, Osma bin Laden, Nero, Bloody Mary, fill in the blank...

???


Just curious to hear everyone's answers and explanations...

Hi

Blood Mary lol

why does this need 77 pages?

2 Cor. 5:8
Rev. 21:8

on the other hand, there is an Apocrypha where someone petitions God to allow people in Hell to get a break on Sunday.

 

[DeborahsSong]

Guess how many people are going to try and lead (morally) good lives if it says we'll all make it?

Regardless of which interpretation is true, what is clear is that back then (and, as evident, today) people need this form of fear in order to lead those good lives and "aim for the gate". Without it, we fall apart.

I REALLY APPRECIATE READING YOUR POSTS AND WOULD JUST LIKE TO COMMENT ON THE ABOVE.

THIS IS THE DOCTRINE OF RESERVE. CERTAIN CHURCH FATHERS ACCOMMODATED THE PAGAN BELIEF IN ENDLESS PUNISHMENT, SINCE IT WAS SEEN AS A RESTRAINT UPON THE MASSES. HOWEVER, AMONG THEMSELVES THEY HELD TO UNIVERSALISM, SINCE THEY WERE WELL VERSED IN THE GREEK SCRIPTURES. (UNFORTUNATELY, AUGUSTINE WAS NOT A GREEK SCHOLAR.)

FEAR OF REMEDIAL PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE HARROWING ENOUGH. IT SERVES NO USEFUL PURPOSE TO DISTORT THE BIBLICAL RECORD WITH THE IDEA OF ENDLESS TORTURE. MODERN MAN DOESN'T BUY INTO TO SUCH A NOTION, ANYWAY.

THE ADAMIC NATURE IS INCAPABLE OF LEADING A MORAL LIFE. WE SHOULDN'T IDENTIFY WITH IT OR ATTEMPT TO "FIX" IT. GOD'S REMEDY WAS NOT TO FIX IT, BUT TO KILL IT ON THE CROSS. WE ARE NOW NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST.

 

[whatfor]

Guess how many people are going to try and lead (morally) good lives if it says we'll all make it?

Regardless of which interpretation is true, what is clear is that back then (and, as evident, today) people need this form of fear in order to lead those good lives and "aim for the gate". Without it, we fall apart.

Isn't it saying the bible is just scare tactics.
I see what your saying but am not willing to say anything in the bible is untrue.

 

[DeborahsSong]

Hi

why does this need 77 pages?

IT TAKES AWHILE TO UNDO OVER 16 CENTURIES OF ERROR.

2 Cor. 5:8

????? IS THIS THE RIGHT VERSE? IF SO, I'M MISSING THE RELEVANCY. PLEASE EXPLAIN.

Rev. 21:8

THIS HAS BEEN DEALT WITH IN THE PREVIOUS 77 PAGES. THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT THE LAKE OF FIRE AND SECOND DEATH ARE PART OF THE PROCESS OF BRINGING ALL TO CHRIST.

on the other hand, there is an Apocrypha where someone petitions God to allow people in Hell to get a break on Sunday.

FORTUNATELY, WE ARE ALL SALTED WITH FIRE. THAT FIRE IS UNQUENCHABLE. NO AMOUNT OF PETITIONS WILL STOP IT UNTIL IT BURNS UP ALL THAT IS COMPUSTIBLE.

OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE

 

[Svt4Him]

Certainly not everyone will find it in this life. But God's love does not expire when we do.

True, nor does His justice.

Oh and yeah, I'm sure the poor hard working man will be greatly relieved he is only burning in flames for all eternity because he did not hear what no one told him, while Adolf is really deep in the hottest lava. Great system we have going there.

Again an emotional appeal, but not one based on what the Bible says. The person who never hears about God is not judged according to not hearing what no one told him, he's judged as one who has not heard the law. God is still just, but because of His goodness, everyone is without excuse as the heavens declare there is a God, and our conscience bear witness to it.

Not my system, you'll have to talk to God about it, as these seem to be His words. But if you were really concerned about the person who hasn't heard about Jesus, why not go tell them?

A boy and a father go camping. While camping the father says to the son that he can swim anywhere but the fenced off area. They fish all day and the father and son go to sleep. The son wakes up early and goes and looks at the fenced off area. It looks calm, so he climbs the gate and jumps in the water. The father wakes up to hear his son screaming as alligators are swimming towards him. The father leaps over the fence, jumps into the water and pulls his son out. The son looks back as his father is fighting off an alligator, all bloody and exhausted until his father is finally able to crawl out of the water.

Would it be fear that keeps the son from going back in? Perhaps. But it could also be an appreciation of what the father did for him that makes him not want to put his father throught that again.

 

[Rajni]

Oh, right, wide is the gate that leads to heaven, and everyone will find it. Oh, wait...

Matthew 7:13-14
"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
​

It says that few will find the narrow gateway and difficult road to life. Is our salvation actually based on a literal "good work" on our part of finding a literal gateway or walking along a rugged road located somewhere? Or do you think Jesus was speaking in figurative terms here?

The most likely answer to these questions (depending on what flavor of Christianity one hails from of course) would be that it's figurative, that the gate is Jesus and the road is obeying His commandments.

Okay, then, few there be that find Jesus. Is this not much of a shocker, when we read in Romans 3:9-12:

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is no one who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.'"
​

"Not even one." Wow! So, yeah, to say that "few" either find Jesus or obey His commandments seems to be another way of saying that nobody finds or obeys Him.

How many does He find, though? Now that gets interesting!

Read any parable about the lost whatever being sought with no rest until it's found, and you have your answer. And no, those parables are not about people seeking God until they find Him, because, as we just saw in Romans 3 above, nobody does that. So interpreting any parable to say that it's we humans that do the seeking/finding would be to contradict this fact. No, those parables are talking about God looking for each and every last member of humankind until He finds them and brings them to Himself. That's why He's referred to as the Good Shepherd. Sheep aren't very good at shepherding themselves.

 

[Svt4Him]

A shepherd takes care of his sheep, he doesn't take care of every single sheep out there. I agree with your interpretation below, apart from the belief that this means God is the shepherd of all. Jesus prayed for those God would give Him, not for all. Those of us who accept Jesus are adopted into His kingdom, we are not all in His kingdom to begin with.

As for the gate, obeying the commands doesn't lead one to God, so even if it's figurative, I don't see it tying in. The commands are to show we can't make it without God. Even if it's figurative and not a real gate, few find it while the gate to hell is wide. Even using your figurative criteria, there are still many going to hell, however they get there, sadly enough.

Read any parable about the lost whatever being sought with no rest until it's found, and you have your answer. And no, those parables are not about people seeking God until they find Him, because, as we just saw in Romans 3 above, nobody does that. So interpreting any parable to say that it's we humans that do the seeking/finding would be to contradict this fact. No, those parables are talking about God looking for each and every last member of humankind until He finds them and brings them to Himself. That's why He's referred to as the Good Shepherd. Sheep aren't very good at shepherding themselves.

 

[Rajni]

FEAR OF REMEDIAL PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE HARROWING ENOUGH. IT SERVES NO USEFUL PURPOSE TO DISTORT THE BIBLICAL RECORD WITH THE IDEA OF ENDLESS TORTURE. MODERN MAN DOESN'T BUY INTO TO SUCH A NOTION, ANYWAY.

I agree. Although it's amazing how many I've come across who, upon hearing that God's punishment isn't endless, respond flippantly that if this is the case we can sin all we want because whatever punishment God does dole out won't be endless.

Their line of reasoning makes no sense, however, and is actually quite disingenuous. If they truly believed that we have no reason to avoid suffering if it's only going to be temporary, why do they use a local anesthetic for dental surgery? Hey, it's temporary! Why worry? Why use epidurals for labor pains? Why take Exedrin for headaches? Trapped in a burning building? Eh, it's only temporary suffering, don't bother calling the fire department. Sounds silly, now, doesn't it?

There's not a single aspect of temporal suffering that is endless, yet we have in place thousands of ways to stop that suffering when it occurs. So the argument that God's punishment doesn't have to be feared because it's only temporary holds no water.



.

 

[psalms 91]

As a latecomer to this am not sure what all has been posted but it would seem to me that when the Word says eternal it means exactly that. Revelation must just be a fairy tale if it ismt eternal. And while you look at hell and the lake of fire you should also look at outer darkness and explain to me how it is not eternal. Do we get a chance after death to acept Jesus? Is it once saved alwaus saved? All are saved in the end? I believe none of these but it is the path that is being tread.

 

[Yuyuchan]

No everyone is not going to heaven. Those who are found to be faithful and righteous on Judgement day are the ones who will go to heaven. The ones who are not found to be faithful and righteous will not go to heaven.