Is Casting Lots Divination?

[chilehed]

Firstly I hope this is in the correct forum.
I have two passages that seem to be in conflict.
The first one forbids a practice and the second one seems to show the apostles practicing what is forbidden.

Can anyone clarify this for me?


Deuteronomy 18:10. "Let no-one be found among you who practices......divination."

Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles"

Divination is "the seeking after knwledge of future or hidden things", so no, casting lots as the Apostles did is not divination.

Neither is flipping a coin to see who goes first in a game.

 

[Greyy]

Divination is the practice of getting some kind of answer from God through a ritual. As was noted, divination was a practice within the Jewish priesthood. The apostles cast lots to determine the will of God prior to Pentecost. Afterwards, it was no longer necessary, with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Open Heart]

I think divination in thus context is seeking know ledge by supernatural means not chance

Those who use divination do not believe in random chance. The whole purpose of casting lots, or doing I-Ching, or reading Tarot, or whatever, is that God, or the gods,or the spirits, or fate, guides the cards or the tea leaves or whatever.

 

[writewords]

equivalent to modern drawing straws or a coin toss and asking for God's will to be done, guidance.

It isn't divination.

 

[konan]

Correct, they r 2 different things, so there isn't any discrepancy

 

[Monk Brendan]

I have two passages that seem to be in conflict.
The first one forbids a practice and the second one seems to show the apostles practicing what is forbidden.

You seem to have missed an obscure passage in Proverbs 16:33. “The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.”

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Firstly I hope this is in the correct forum.
I have two passages that seem to be in conflict.
The first one forbids a practice and the second one seems to show the apostles practicing what is forbidden.

Can anyone clarify this for me?


Deuteronomy 18:10. "Let no-one be found among you who practices......divination."

Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles"

You might want to look at all of the following verses which probably contextualized what the Apostles "did" when attempting to choose another person to join their Apostleship.

BibleGateway - : lots

Additionally, the basic proscription against divination has to do with trying to find answers for life and/or the future "apart from relying upon the Lord" for those answers, and this is probably reflected in the idea of the following admonition from James 4:13-16:

13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil.
​

So, I'd aver that practicing 'divination' is also an act of arrogance against the Lord in attempting to empower oneself up and above the situation in life that God has permitted for us.

​

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

​

 

[Open Heart]

equivalent to modern drawing straws or a coin toss and asking for God's will to be done, guidance.

It isn't divination.

If I'm flipping coins to make a random chance decision, that is not divination. But if I don't believe in random choice but believe in FATE, or if I ask God to guid the coin, THAT is divination.

 

[Vicomte13]

Is casting lots divination?

It depends. Casting lots is rolling dice (or something similar). If you're asking questions of God, or of the air, before doing it, then yes, it's divination. If you're doing it to get a random number for use in a game, no it isn't.

 

[writewords]

Not in the way the Bible is speaking of divination. The warnings and commands about not practicing divination are speaking of witchcraft, occult, etc.

Asking God to guide a decision making process is nowhere near the same.

It is irresponsible for you to attempt to make the two even remotely similar.[/QUOTE]

 

[DennisTate]

Firstly I hope this is in the correct forum.
I have two passages that seem to be in conflict.
The first one forbids a practice and the second one seems to show the apostles practicing what is forbidden.

Can anyone clarify this for me?


Deuteronomy 18:10. "Let no-one be found among you who practices......divination."

Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles"

On one level...... what we are doing with our time and how close we are to G-d would play a role in our ability to cast lots and expect an answer I would think?

The Apostles were obviously very close to G-d at that time.

 

[Jack Isaacks]

When the Patriarchate of Moscow was restored during the tumult of WW1 and the Revolution, at the All-Russian Council, three candidates were proposed. Their names were written on slips of paper and placed in a chalice on the altar. After a night long prayer vigil, an old monk known for his holiness drew a name out. The lot fell to Abp. Tikhon Bellavin, known to history as St. Tikhon the Confessor.

A similar procedure is used to choose the Pope of the Coptic Church, only a small child draws the lot.

Christ is risen!

 

[writewords]

Notice how they had not yet been iindwelled with the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 and He arrives you don't see casting lots again. After they are indwelled they pray without casting lots for the rest of Scripture.

 

[Blade]

They cast lots.. they picked the next one. God did not. What did PAUL say of himself? He did infact see talk with Christ. Paul was in fact picked by Christ just a thought

 

[Open Heart]

Not in the way the Bible is speaking of divination. The warnings and commands about not practicing divination are speaking of witchcraft, occult, etc.

Asking God to guide a decision making process is nowhere near the same.

It is irresponsible for you to attempt to make the two even remotely similar.

[/QUOTE]
I believe that well intentioned Christians can use pagan methods, even occultic means, which God does not desire.

 

[Waterwerx]

Technically, casting lots is divination.

And what were they divining when they were casting lots for His garments in Matthew 25:37 ?

 

[Dkh587]

Casting lots is not divination. When was anybody in the Scriptures rebuked for casting lots? Divination is a sin. Divination is specified in the law as a sin. Where is casting lots specified as a sin?

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Firstly I hope this is in the correct forum.
I have two passages that seem to be in conflict.
The first one forbids a practice and the second one seems to show the apostles practicing what is forbidden.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Deuteronomy 18:10. "Let no-one be found among you who practices......divination."

Acts 1:26 "Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles"

Divination and lots, in scripture, are very different terms and concepts. The main differences between were that Lots were a specific ritual (cast by priests) to determine the will of God,such as pointing out a guilty party or allotting the inheritance of land, and were always accurate. Divination could be done in many ways, was effectively random, generally included horrific practices in its attempts to determine the will of pagan gods, and was often done for a fee.

A modern comparison might be the difference between someone who consults a physician to diagnose an illness vs. someone consulting a witch doctor.

Casting of Lots

The 'casting of lots' (Hebrew term goral) in the Old Testament was a specific ritual whereby a priest, or petitioner through a priest, could inquire of God (Num 27:21m Ezra 2:62-63); as distinguished from lots cast by pagan nations, which were chance or divination. The priest would cast the Urim and the Thummin, much like getting a 'yes or no' answer from God. There were also twelve stones in the breastplate that could be used in conjunction, to determine matters regarding the twelve tribes (Ex 28:15-21).

One of the examples of this is found in I Sam 14:41,
"And Saul said: Lord, God of Israel, why hast thou not answered thy servant this day? If this iniquity be in me or in Jonathan my son, Lord, God of Israel, give Urim; but if it be in thy people Israel, give Thummim. Then Jonathan and Saul were taken by lot; and the people escaped"

Casting the lot was very different from leaving something to chance, such as dice rolls or drawing straws. It was a direct inquiry of the Lord. Hence, while the priest physically casts the lot "into the lap", it's every judgement was directly from God (Prov 16:33).

Compare this to rolling a die multiple times, and getting different results every time. While the rules binding dice are set by God (physics, probability), one could not construe every individual roll of a die to be direct revelation from God, without believing in a changeable God.

If a priest were to cast the Urim and Thummin multiple times, it would always come up the same. However, this was unnecessary, as God's answer was final.

In the old Testament, there were several ways of God communicating to the people. The primary ways were by the prophets, by visions/dreams, and by the casting of the Urim and Thummin by the priest. (I Sam 28:4-7).

Now that Christ has come, and believers have the Holy Spirit, God has written His law directly on our hearts, and we can pray to God through Christ. The old system of priests is obsolete, for now Jesus is our High Priest.

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe" (Heb 1:1-2)

Yet, in Old Testament times; the lot, dreams, and the prophets were often the people's only connection to gaining an answer from God.

The Urim and the Thummin were kept inside the breastplate of the High Priest (Lev 8:6-8). They were used to determine many things, such as boundaries, sin, genealogy, or courses of action. It was generally not a good thing when Israel failed to inquire of the Lord, (John 9:3-15).

Here are some notable examples in scripture:

Determining boundaries: After being sent out to survey the land and divide it into seven parts, God assigned which tribe would receive which section (Josh 18)

Sin: When Israel failed to conquer Ai, the Lord told Joshua that it was due to someone taking some of the things devoted to destruction. The next day, lots were cast to discover the culprit (Josh 7).

Ancestry: After the exile, those who could not prove ancestry were forbidden from the priesthood or to eat of the holy things until a priest inquired of God to determine their ancestry. (Num 18:9-11, Ezra 2:62-63)
Division of priestly service: Lots were cast as to where each family of priests would serve (I Chron 26:12-16)

Choosing a King: The king of Israel, Saul, was chosen by lot/inquiry of the Lord (I Sam 10:17-24)

There is also the famous example in the New Testament of Matthias being chosen by lot. (Acts 1:23-26). Much as the Israelites were to choose divisions of the land before God distributed it, here the Apostles used sensible criteria to choose out two possible men to take over Judas' ministry.

"They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." (Acts 1:14) Peter then stands among them and speaks of the importance of the fulfimment of scripture, and references several old testament prophecies. (Acts 1:15-20)

Note that they were specifically looking for an apostle to *replace the ministry of Judas.* Paul's ministry was not the same as Judas' - he was called as an apostle to the Gentiles. The 12 were apostles to the circumcised Jews. (Gal 2:8)

"Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles." Acts 1:24-26

God answered their prayer and Matthias was chosen. There is nothing in the passage to imply that they were engaging in a now forbidden practice or outside the will of God - quite the opposite. The passage shows them seeking God, and God answering.

The practice of casting lots does not seem to have been used in the church must past the giving of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit Himself convicts us of God's will, and we all are priests now under Christ our High Priest.

[There also was a more secular version of casting lots, such as when the soldiers cast lots for Jesus' undergarment (Jn 19:23-24). This wasn't related to the God-appointed practice of casting lots via the priests, but rather was more similar to our modern English usage of a game of chance, determing a winner by drawing straws or some other random method.]


Divination

Divination is referred to with the Hebrew words 'qesem' or 'nachash.' It refers to the many ways that pagan peoples, often even the Israelites, sought omens or signs as to the correct course of action, such as hydromancy, enchantments, conjuring, reading entrails, seeking omens, etc. Many of these methods were unconscionable, such as burning children alive:

"They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sought omens and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger." II Kings 17:17

The Israelites turning away from God's will to these 'magical' forms of seeking signs was one reason that God often withheld his protection from His people and even brought disaster upon them.

"Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they look for the LORD's support and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us. Therefore, on account of you Zion will be plowed as a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins, And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.…" Mic 3:11

Divination is, in general, contrasted with the true prophecies of God:

"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone, Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness, Confirming the word of His servant And performing the purpose of His messengers. It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again.…" Isa 44:24-26

Another prominent case is found in Daniel 2-4, where Nebuchadnezzar's diviners, astrologers, and other magicians cannot tell Nebuchadnezzar his dream, but Daniel (who is revealed the dream and its meaning by God) can.

There are a couple of cases in scripture where God actually uses someone using divination to his own purpose:

"Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, "Divine for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you...When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul." I Sam 28:9-18

Though Saul violated the commands of God in bringing up Samuel (and the spiritist herself seemed surprised that it worked, actually,) God still reveals what will happen to Saul.

In I Samuel 6:1-3, it is implied that God gives the answer to Philistine diviners when they are genuinely seeking God's will. "And the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners, saying, "What shall we do with the ark of the LORD? Tell us how we shall send it to its place. They said, "If you send away the ark of the God of Israel, do not send it empty; but you shall surely return to Him a guilt offering. Then you will be healed and it will be known to you why His hand is not removed from you."…

Perhaps an even more interesting case is the one where God uses an enemy king's superstitions as a method to bring the enemy upon Jerusalem:

"The word of the LORD came to me saying, “As for you, son of man, make two ways for the sword of the king of Babylon to come; both of them will go out of one land. And make a signpost; make it at the head of the way to the city. “You shall mark a way for the sword to come to Rabbah of the sons of Ammon, and to Judah into fortified Jerusalem. “For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination; he shakes the arrows, he consults the household idols, he looks at the liver. “Into his right hand came the divination, ‘Jerusalem,’ to set battering rams, to open the mouth for slaughter, to lift up the voice with a battle cry, to set battering rams against the gates, to cast up ramps, to build a siege wall. “And it will be to them like a false divination in their eyes; they have sworn solemn oaths. But he brings iniquity to remembrance, that they may be seized." Ezek 21:18-23

This was an ironic method of bringing on the enemy, as one of the reasons Jerusalem was to be punished was their hearkening to Ammonite soothsayers and diviners, and one reason Ammon was to be punished was for their misleading the Israelites with divination.

Divination is proscribed by God for those who follow Him. To the Israelites, He forbade them from divination and other forms of sorcery, and told them to only listen to the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord and did not speak falsehood. (Duet 18:9-22). In Gal 5:19-20, idolatry and sorcery (of which divination would be a subcategory) are listed among the deeds of the flesh.

 

[Open Heart]

And what were they divining when they were casting lots for His garments in Matthew 25:37 ?

When casting lots for his garments, they weren't consulting fate or the gods, they just wanted random chance. Thus, it was not divination.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm