Is Calvinism a heresy?

[John Mullally]

Calvinists describe a world where our fate has been sealed from the foundation of the world, either for good or for bad. Recalling his own conversion to Calvinism, Calvinist scholar R.C. Sproul comments:

“I no longer feared the demons of fatalism or the ugly thought that I was being reduced to a puppet. Now I rejoiced in a gracious Savior who alone was immortal, invisible, the only wise God.”​

Perhaps some Calvinists no longer fear the “demons of fatalism” because they envision themselves as coming out on the winning end of a secret selection.

I'm sure you're correct. But they have no assurance of that. if God wants them to have an outwardly faithful life, but at the end they apostatize, well, that's God's will for them, and they just have to accept it as the best for them to have wasted an entire life supposedly following Christ, only to lose it all at the last second of their life, and go to hell forever--all by God's decree. There's no place for faith in such a scheme.

Here is a quote from John Calvin that supports their lack of assurance.

“There is the general call, by which God invites all equally to himself through the outward preaching of the word – even those to whom he holds it out as a savour of death (2 Cor. 2:16), and as the occasion of severer condemnation. The other kind of call is special, which he deigns for the most part to give to the believer alone… Yet sometimes he also causes those whom he illumines only for a time to partake of it; then he justly forsakes them on account of their ungratefulness amd strikes them with even greater blindness.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8)​

 

[atpollard]

Here is a quote from John Calvin that supports their lack of assurance.

“There is the general call, by which God invites all equally to himself through the outward preaching of the word – even those to whom he holds it out as a savour of death (2 Cor. 2:16), and as the occasion of severer condemnation. The other kind of call is special, which he deigns for the most part to give to the believer alone… Yet sometimes he also causes those whom he illumines only for a time to partake of it; then he justly forsakes them on account of their ungratefulness amd strikes them with even greater blindness.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8)​

Just for the record, do you:

1. Deny that some people believe for a time (or at least appear to believe for a time, since we cannot see the heart of another) and later turn from Christ?
2. Deny that God has the power to DO ANYTHING about [#1] and believe that the matter is beyond His control?

Calvin is offering an explanation for a perceived reality, I am simply attempting to clarify whether you disagree with THAT REALITY (people fall away) or you disagree that GOD IS IN CONTROL of that reality.

 

[John Mullally]

Here is a quote from John Calvin that supports their lack of assurance.

“There is the general call, by which God invites all equally to himself through the outward preaching of the word – even those to whom he holds it out as a savour of death (2 Cor. 2:16), and as the occasion of severer condemnation. The other kind of call is special, which he deigns for the most part to give to the believer alone… Yet sometimes he also causes those whom he illumines only for a time to partake of it; then he justly forsakes them on account of their ungratefulness amd strikes them with even greater blindness.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8)​

Just for the record, do you:

1. Deny that some people believe for a time (or at least appear to believe for a time, since we cannot see the heart of another) and later turn from Christ?
2. Deny that God has the power to DO ANYTHING about [#1] and believe that the matter is beyond His control?

Calvin is offering an explanation for a perceived reality, I am simply attempting to clarify whether you disagree with THAT REALITY (people fall away) or you disagree that GOD IS IN CONTROL of that reality.

In explaining the parable of the soils to His disciples, Jesus speaks of those who believe for a while, but fall away. Thus Jesus's answer to your first question would be "No". Your second question is ridiculous.

Luke 8:11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.​

In Calvinism, the unregenerate cannot respond positively to the gospel. Recall from the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity and Total Inability in which the non-elect do not receive an Irresistible Grace, and thereby remain in their hopeless and helpless condition from birth. And yet we learn from Luke 8:13 that there are those whom Jesus metaphorically compares to “rocky soil” who eventually fall away due to the cares and temptations of this world, but not before first showing initial “joy” in hearing “the word of God” and who “believe for a while.” As members of Calvinism’s non-elect (required by Calvinism since they ultimately fell away), where would they get such ability, given that Total Inability guarantees and assures us that they have none?

One solution for Calvinism is what John Calvin advocated, namely, a doctrine of “Temporal Grace” which gives the non-elect temporary ability. He taught that God gives some of the non-elect a “temporal grace” [like an Irresistible Grace to overcome Total Inability] as a “taste of His grace” with “some glimmerings of His light” and “some knowledge” such as to “affect them with some sense of His goodness,” though which God [according to Calvinism] “illumes only for a time,” which “afterwards proves evanescent.” These “reprobates” that “fall away” “take root in appearance” as if they “were of the predestined,” so as to be “considered for a time to be children of God” and “afterwards depart to their own place.” Clearly, John Calvin believed that this special class of the non-elect are given a temporary gift of faith which is later rescinded. However, this is a rarely held view among Calvinists. Instead, most Calvinists simply reject that those of Luke 8:13 ever really believed, despite the fact that Jesus said that they did.

 

[Derf]

Just for the record, do you:

1. Deny that some people believe for a time (or at least appear to believe for a time, since we cannot see the heart of another) and later turn from Christ?
2. Deny that God has the power to DO ANYTHING about [#1] and believe that the matter is beyond His control?

Calvin is offering an explanation for a perceived reality, I am simply attempting to clarify whether you disagree with THAT REALITY (people fall away) or you disagree that GOD IS IN CONTROL of that reality.

Yes, but his explanation contains within it the seeds of the downfall of his own doctrine.

 

[JLB777]

Like faith, repentance is a fruit of salvation granted only to those whom God has sovereignly chosen

Ok.


Please post the scripture that says “repentance is a fruit of salvation granted only to those whom God has sovereignly chosen”.


Here is my scripture for you to consider.


“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:36-39


Was Peter preaching the Gospel to saved people or unsaved people?








JLB

 

[atpollard]

Yes, but his explanation contains within it the seeds of the downfall of his own doctrine.

Nothing is LESS impressive than Christians explaining why another answer is wrong (John Calvin's in this case) while offering no meaningful alternative. I am equally unimpressed with those "Calvinists" that call SYNERGISM "Pelagians" and leave the arguments unanswered with viable alternatives.

Are you familiar with the following quote:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ​

- Theodore Roosevelt​

It seems applicable to most posts about what is WRONG with someone else's beliefs rather than AFFIRMATIONS of ones own beliefs.

 

[Derf]

Nothing is LESS impressive than Christians explaining why another answer is wrong (John Calvin's in this case) while offering no meaningful alternative. I am equally unimpressed with those "Calvinists" that call SYNERGISM "Pelagians" and leave the arguments unanswered with viable alternatives.

Are you familiar with the following quote:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ​

- Theodore Roosevelt​

It seems applicable to most posts about what is WRONG with someone else's beliefs rather than AFFIRMATIONS of ones own beliefs.

Good quote. What exactly were men trying to accomplish in the arena? Wasn't it to defeat the opponent, and by their defeat, elevate themselves?

What part of my position were you thinking I wasn't affirming sufficiently, now that I've defeated my opponent?

---

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Nothing is LESS impressive than Christians explaining why another answer is wrong (John Calvin's in this case) while offering no meaningful alternative. I am equally unimpressed with those "Calvinists" that call SYNERGISM "Pelagians" and leave the arguments unanswered with viable alternatives.

The viable reply to every system that purports to understand how God will accomplish his plans is to refer everyone to the answer that the Lord, Jesus, himself gave, no one knows the day or the hour except the Father alone. Ultimately it is a mystery not yet revealed - how God accomplishes his plans is the mystery that the last day will reveal but that current days have not yet revealed, and so the debates about predestination and synergism and many other things are speculations that engage the mind but do not do very much to enrich the soul.

 

[John Mullally]

The reprobate have no true care for the Gospel and do not bother making their election and calling sure (2 Pet 1:10), examine themselves to see if they are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5) or work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12). Only the elect are made willing to do these things.

You can't be made willing. Those terms are oxymoronic.

“Made willing” is a contradiction in terms. Moreover, although Calvinism does not teach that God saves anyone against their will, it does teach that God regenerates people against their "Totally Depraved" will, simply because they happen to be among Calvinism’s elect. The Calvinist response is to deny that God (according to Calvinism) forces anyone to believe. However, giving someone a new heart that doesn’t want a new heart is forced. To claim that God creates “yes-men” with an “Irresistible Grace” or that God could not get anyone to love Him apart from using irresistible-means would be embarrassing, shameful, unethical, immoral, hardly glorious and frankly very insulting to God. At best, it would be analogous to brainwashing and at worst, comparable to using a date-rape drug.

In Calvinism, Irresistible Grace is not the belief that all grace is irresistible, but rather that when God chooses to convert Calvinism’s elect, He unilaterally and involuntarily implements an irresistible regeneration against their otherwise depraved will, simply because they happen to be among His eternally chosen “elect.” Such pre-emptive regeneration accompanies a new heart that is made receptive to conversion so that the individual has been made willing to love God. However, if God wills to act irresistibly upon human volition so as to guarantee conversion, then why would God (according to Calvinism) be unwilling to cause Calvinism’s elect to never sin again? In other words, why would it only function in conversion?

Non-Calvinists, by contrast, believe that grace is resistible, both in conversion and in daily living. Every Christian would love to be able to receive an Irresistible Grace so as to never sin again, but we intuitively know that that isn’t how God works, and instead, we must battle with our own fallen nature daily in order to walk in fellowship with God.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

 

[Derf]

The viable reply to every system that purports to understand how God will accomplish his plans is to refer everyone to the answer that the Lord, Jesus, himself gave, no one knows the day or the hour except the Father alone.

I'm confused. Why would The fact that no one knows the time mean that no one knows how God will accomplish His plans? Jesus included Himself in the first group, but surely you wouldn't assert He's unaware of how God will accomplish His plans.

Ultimately it is a mystery not yet revealed - how God accomplishes his plans is the mystery that the last day will reveal but that current days have not yet revealed,

Yet much HAS been revealed. Are we to ignore scripture and say there's no revelation at all? Or do we wrestle with it to mine its depths?

and so the debates about predestination and synergism and many other things are speculations that engage the mind but do not do very much to enrich the soul.

Enrichment comes from greater understanding of what has been revealed.

 

[Dan1988]

Please provide scripture for your assertions (such as God must regenerate people before they turn to God). Ezekiel 18:30-32 n the OT promises that God will change the heart of those who in their depravity chose to repent. Calvinists assert that the order has chanced in the NT - NO.

There are too many Bible verses to list here, which make it clear that God chose to save a specific number people before He created the world.

I will give you just one verse to reckon with, you won't be able to make it fit the Arminian (joint effort) doctrine.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.

I realize this Bible doctrine is very hard for the natural man to accept, as it seems unfair for the Lord to have all the say in the matter of salvation. The proud sinful man, naturally wants to take some credit for what the Lord Jesus Christ did to save His elect. But the Lord said He would not share His glory with anyone.

 

[atpollard]

“Made willing” is a contradiction in terms. Moreover, although Calvinism does not teach that God saves anyone against their will, it does teach that God regenerates people against their "Totally Depraved" will

Hypothetical situation:

A man is swimming at the beach when a rip-tide begins to pull him under. As the life guard arrives, the drowning man is in a complete state of panic and begins fighting against the efforts of the Life Guard. The Life Guard ultimately prevails, overpowering the panicked man and dragging him to the shore (saving his life).​

In the real world, the man will be grateful that he was rescued rather than angry that his “free will” was violated … but that is not my question, just an observation. Was the “WILL” of the drowning man really to drown (die) or did he really want to live, but his actions contradicted his “true will”?


Does natural man really desire to spend eternity in HELL, or are they acting irrationally (like the drowning man)?
When God “changes a heart” so they desire to be saved and cooperate with Christ’s rescue, is that really “against their will”?

 

[John Mullally]

There are too many Bible verses to list here, which make it clear that God chose to save a specific number people before He created the world.

I will give you just one verse to reckon with, you won't be able to make it fit the Arminian (joint effort) doctrine.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.

The book of Ephesians is addressed to the "faithful in Christ" - thus to better understand the book of Ephesians you can replace "us", "we" and "you" with the "faithful in Christ".

The principle of Ephesians 1:3 says that God has blessed us (i.e. the faithful in Christ) “with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.” In other words, “every spiritual blessing” is for believing Christians, that is, those who are in Christ. So, if Irresistible Grace or Regeneration constituted a spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, then it would only be available for those who are “in Christ.” We are not blessed apart from Christ, but rather we are blessed “in Christ,” which is how God the Father honors His Son. The Father’s spiritual blessings for the bride of Christ necessarily blesses Christ Himself because the bride of Christ is in the body of Christ.

If Ephesians 1:3 contains the principle, then Ephesians 1:4 contains the example of that principle. The example here (of a spiritual blessing in Christ that Paul gives) is that God predestined those in Christ to stand holy and blameless before God, which is 1:4b, and Paul further describes this particular spiritual blessing for the church at Ephesians 5:27: “…that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.” Notice how closely this mirrors Ephesians 1:4b: “that we would be holy and blameless in his sight.” It becomes abundantly clear that Paul was speaking of the spiritual blessings that God predestined for “the church.”

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love​

I realize this Bible doctrine is very hard for the natural man to accept, as it seems unfair for the Lord to have all the say in the matter of salvation. The proud sinful man, naturally wants to take some credit for what the Lord Jesus Christ did to save His elect.

I was exposed to Calvinism in my youth. Years later I re-examined Calvinism and I don't see it well supported in scripture. On this forum, I see a lot of arguments for Calvinism based upon assumptions I don't share like the TULIP theological framework, opinion, or from a laundry list of scripture with no explanation (like the cut and pastes from @Maximar). I would like to see more in depth arguments from scripture.

But the Lord said He would not share His glory with anyone.

Didn't you know that Jesus shares the glory with us that God, the Father, gave Him?

John 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—​

 

[Derf]

There are too many Bible verses to list here, which make it clear that God chose to save a specific number people before He created the world.

I don't know about @John Mullally, but I would be quite interested in even one verse that tells us God chose to save "a specific number" of people before He created the world. Just one.

I will give you just one verse to reckon with, you won't be able to make it fit the Arminian (joint effort) doctrine.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love.

This is not the one. It has no mention of any specific number. Nor any specific person, for that matter. You can tell this is true because YOU count yourself as part of the "us/we", but Paul has no idea who you are, since you didn't exist when he wrote Ephesians.

I realize this Bible doctrine is very hard for the natural man to accept,

But you aren't dealing with the natural man. You're dealing with God's elect here. And most of God's elect also find it very hard to accept, including some that once did accept it.

as it seems unfair for the Lord to have all the say in the matter of salvation. The proud sinful man, naturally wants to take some credit for what the Lord Jesus Christ did to save His elect. But the Lord said He would not share His glory with anyone.

Which means what? That "God chose who would be saved and who would be damned before the world began"? Hardly.

 

[John Mullally]

Hypothetical situation:

A man is swimming at the beach when a rip-tide begins to pull him under. As the life guard arrives, the drowning man is in a complete state of panic and begins fighting against the efforts of the Life Guard. The Life Guard ultimately prevails, overpowering the panicked man and dragging him to the shore (saving his life).​

In the real world, the man will be grateful that he was rescued rather than angry that his “free will” was violated … but that is not my question, just an observation. Was the “WILL” of the drowning man really to drown (die) or did he really want to live, but his actions contradicted his “true will”?

The man would be grateful, but more on that at the bottom of this post.

Evangelistically, no apostle ever presented Irresistible Grace as the gospel’s “good news” for the solution to the spiritual deadness of humanity. In Calvinism, Irresistible Grace is the only solution to stand against a works-based salvation, or that which negates boasting. Yet, the Calvinist imperative is completely absent from Scripture. It’s made-up.

While it is true from Romans 3:9-12 that fallen humanity does not initiate seeking God, the good news is that God seeks humanity, and has positioned Himself as “not far away,” according to Paul’s sermon to the Athenians at Acts 17:27, specifically so that people can and will seek Him: “‘…that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us….’” Why would Paul plead with the Athenians to seek God if God is just going to use "irresistible Grace" to save a preselected subset of humanity?

Does natural man really desire to spend eternity in HELL, or are they acting irrationally (like the drowning man)?
When God “changes a heart” so they desire to be saved and cooperate with Christ’s rescue, is that really “against their will”?

Satan, not God or man's depravity, blinds people to the Gospel. Paul talks about dealing with Satan in Ephesians 6:10-20 - but I am not going to go down that trail.

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.​

 

[atpollard]

[John 3:19-20 NASB20] 19 "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

• Who are “people”?
• Who is “everyone who does evil”?
• What does it mean that “PEOPLE” love darkness and ”EVERYONE” does not come to the Light (Jesus)?

 

[John Mullally]

[John 3:19-20 NASB20] 19 "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

• Who are “people”?
• Who is “everyone who does evil”?
• What does it mean that “PEOPLE” love darkness and ”EVERYONE” does not come to the Light (Jesus)?

John 3:16-22: This passage is not connecting the dots between a hypothetical Total Depravity and a hypothetical Irresistible Grace. The real issue is competing-loves, and the effect of sin upon the human conscience, in either driving people back to God in repentance or driving people away from God in resentment. This is why when those who walk away from God to Atheism, typically do so for the sake of one particular sin or another. Sin causes a natural wedge (i.e. enmity) between people and God, and so when people let go of sin, they are free to come back to God. Jesus’ message would only take hold when people repent—and hence the importance of a message of repentance.

Free Will from Genesis 4:6-8: Set within the context of Cain, according to Genesis chapter 4, God asked why he was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” 8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.​

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

 

[atpollard]

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner.

Strange then that God should have misread that situation. Cain DIDN’T choose to obey … almost like “Total Depravity”, huh?

"And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.”​

• Who is “people”?

 

[Derf]

[John 3:19-20 NASB20] 19 "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed.

• Who are “people”?
• Who is “everyone who does evil”?
• What does it mean that “PEOPLE” love darkness and ”EVERYONE” does not come to the Light (Jesus)?

It means everyone to some extent, and the majority of people to some extent--those who don't find the narrow way. And then some come to the light/narrow-way, and some don't.

 

[John Mullally]

.