Is Calvinism a heresy?

[returntosender]

I don't understand most of it so...

 

[Derf]

Agreed, not every person who is humbled is saved. This is made plainly evident in the many who say they know Christ as Lord but look to their own works instead of Christ for righteousness (Matt 7:22-23).

Please show me from Holy Scripture where the Doctrines of Grace which proclaims that salvation belongs to the Lord and not spiritually dead man are heretical.

Those who are ordained by God to come to God end up coming to God, even if they kick against the goads as Paul did (Acts 9:5).

Obviously I can't "show you from the Holy Scriptures" the "doctrines of grace", because they are heretical.
Total Depravity, meaning that man cannot even repent without first being saved, is nowhere in the scriptures. Instead, God requires that men believe on Christ in order to be saved. And that IS in the scriptures numerous times, like Acts 16:30-31 KJV - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Unconditional Election, meaning that those that are elected are elected based on some unknown reason only God knows, is nowhere in the scriptures. Rather, election to salvation is in Christ, and all that belongs to Him belongs to us when we are "in Christ", which is a condition of election. Ephesians 1:13 KJV - In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Limited Atonement, meaning Christ only died for the elect, is nowhere in the scriptures. But Christ died for the ungodly: Romans 5:6 KJV - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Irresistible Grace, meaning that once elected no one can keep from being saved, is nowhere in the scriptures. Instead we find that men resist God all the time. Though Jesus, being lifted up, draws all men to Himself (John 12:32 KJV - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.), He still says that most people do not find life: Matthew 7:14 KJV - Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. In other words, they resist the drawing, which drawing is by the grace of God.

Perseverance of the Saints (Elect) in Calvinism is merely a tautology that says the elect are will be saved and the saved are elect, so it doesn't need any scriptural support. Rather those that have life in Christ, and walk in His Spirit can in no way be separated from the love of Christ. However, Jesus also makes it clear that we must persevere to the end.

 

[JLB777]

I'm curious.

And welcome aboard the forum.

There is only one command in the Gospel of Jesus Christ; Repent.


Repent is the call of God to all nations. Repent is the call of the Gospel to turn to God.


This is the commission Jesus gave to Paul on the “road to Damascus”.


Words of Christ in red —

So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20


Repent means to turn to God in submission to Him as LORD.


If we are called to turn to God in submission to Him as LORD, then we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord; our master, the one we obey.


The way we obey this command of the Gospel to repent, is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

Confessing Jesus as LORD is how we obey the Gospel command to repent; turn to God.


This is called the “obedience of faith”.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26







JLB

 

[JLB777]

The command of the Gospel is to repent and believe which is impossible for men to do in themselves and this is why a person must first be born again by grace to want to obey God.

Faith without works is indeed dead but remember that any works without faith is sin (Rom 14:23).

Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

Grace is imparted by God through the Gospel, along with faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8

Paul says it’s power of God unto salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

Grace, (The Spirit of grace) enables and empowers us to obey the Gospel.


Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthian 12:3



No sinner can repent without grace, (the Spirit of grace; the Holy Spirit) empower them with the God given ability to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.


Repent = turn to God.

The way we repent is by confessing Jesus as LORD.





JLB

 

[Derf]

There is only one command in the Gospel of Jesus Christ; Repent.


Repent is the call of God to all nations. Repent is the call of the Gospel to turn to God.


This is the commission Jesus gave to Paul on the “road to Damascus”.


Words of Christ in red —

So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:15-20


Repent means to turn to God in submission to Him as LORD.


If we are called to turn to God in submission to Him as LORD, then we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord; our master, the one we obey.


The way we obey this command of the Gospel to repent, is to confess Jesus Christ as LORD.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

Confessing Jesus as LORD is how we obey the Gospel command to repent; turn to God.


This is called the “obedience of faith”.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26







JLB

That sounds pretty good, but if repentance is all the gospel is about, why do we need to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead? Couldn't people have repented and called Jesus Lord without Him even dying?

 

[Dan1988]

That sounds pretty good, but if repentance is all the gospel is about, why do we need to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead? Couldn't people have repented and called Jesus Lord without Him even dying?

Didn't Jesus command us to first, turn from our sin, repent and follow Me. How can a sinner truly turn from what he loves, repent of it and follow Christ. How could anyone obey these commandments, unless God regenerates them first and makes them willing to forsake what they love by nature.
Can a leopard change it's spots, can a man change his very nature. I have never found a single verse in the Bible which would support the notion that salvation is a joint effort between God and man. We are utterly powerless to reprogram ourselves and become a new creature, only the Creator is able to do that.

 

[John Mullally]

Didn't Jesus command us to first, turn from our sin, repent and follow Me. How can a sinner truly turn from what he loves, repent of it and follow Christ. How could anyone obey these commandments, unless God regenerates them first and makes them willing to forsake what they love by nature.

Please provide scripture for your assertions (such as God must regenerate people before they turn to God). Ezekiel 18:30-32 n the OT promises that God will change the heart of those who in their depravity chose to repent. Calvinists assert that the order has chanced in the NT - NO.

 

[JLB777]

That sounds pretty good, but if repentance is all the gospel is about, why do we need to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead? Couldn't people have repented and called Jesus Lord without Him even dying?

Who said repentance is all the Gospel is about.


He suffered and died for our benefit, that we would have peace that He paid the price for, that we would have healing that He paid the price for, that we would be free from the bondage of sin that He paid the price for, that we would be free from iniquities that He paid the price for, that we would receive eternal life that He paid the price for, but it all starts with repentance.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

JLB

 

[Derf]

Who said repentance is all the Gospel is about.


He suffered and died for our benefit, that we would have peace that He paid the price for, that we would have healing that He paid the price for, that we would be free from the bondage of sin that He paid the price for, that we would be free from iniquities that He paid the price for, that we would receive eternal life that He paid the price for, but it all starts with repentance.



that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

JLB

Why do you think it works that way? Why is confession, with belief of course, salvific?

 

[atpollard]

Obviously I can't "show you from the Holy Scriptures" the "doctrines of grace", because they are heretical.

Balderdash … stop with the rubbish!
At least present HONEST criticisms.

[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• “No one can come to Me” = [Total Inability / Total Depravity] = As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all of Adam’s descendants are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5). Calvinists are quick to point out that this does not mean that all people are as bad as they could be. Rather, this doctrine says that, as a result of man’s fall in Adam, all people are radically depraved from the inside and that their depravity affects every area of their lives.
• “unless the Father who sent Me” = [Unconditional Election] = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable (and stubbornly unwilling) to initiate a saving response to God. In light of this, God, from eternity past, mercifully elected a particular people unto salvation (Ephesians 1:4–6). These people are comprised of men and women from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (Revelation 5:9). Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not contingent on man’s response to God’s grace (Romans 8:29–30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:11–12) because man, in his fallen state, is both unable and unwilling to respond favorably to Christ’s offer of salvation.
• “draws him” = [Irresistible Grace] = God has elected a particular people to be the recipients of Christ’s atoning work. These people are drawn to Christ by a grace that is irresistible. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, John 6:44; 10:16). This teaching does not mean that God saves men against their will. Rather, God changes the heart of the rebellious unbeliever so that he now desires to repent and be saved. God’s elect will be drawn to Him, and that grace that draws them is, in fact, irresistible. God replaces the unbeliever’s heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). In Reformed theology, regeneration precedes faith.
• “I will raise him up on the last day.” = [Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints] = The particular people God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None of those whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure in Him (John 10:27–29; Romans 8:29–30; Ephesians 1:3–14). Some Reformed theologians prefer to use the term “Preservation of the Saints” as they believe that this choice of words more accurately describes how God is directly responsible for the preservation of His elect. It is clear in Scripture that Christ continues to intercede for His people (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25). This continues to provide believers with the assurance that those who belong to Christ are eternally His.

There are 4 of the 5 Doctrines of Grace presented in a single verse of scripture, utterly refuting the nonsensical claim that the Doctrines of Grace are found NOWHERE in Scripture. (So you may continue to believe the folly that YOU can come to God without the Father FIRST drawing you and that Jesus may, or may not, raise you … but I will continue to believe the Doctrines of Grace taught from the lips of Jesus. God draws, God saves, God preserves … according to God’s purpose (like Romans 8:28-30 states).

 

[John Mullally]

Balderdash … stop with the rubbish!
At least present HONEST criticisms.

[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

• “No one can come to Me” = [Total Inability / Total Depravity] = As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all of Adam’s descendants are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5). Calvinists are quick to point out that this does not mean that all people are as bad as they could be. Rather, this doctrine says that, as a result of man’s fall in Adam, all people are radically depraved from the inside and that their depravity affects every area of their lives.
• “unless the Father who sent Me” = [Unconditional Election] = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable (and stubbornly unwilling) to initiate a saving response to God. In light of this, God, from eternity past, mercifully elected a particular people unto salvation (Ephesians 1:4–6). These people are comprised of men and women from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (Revelation 5:9). Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not contingent on man’s response to God’s grace (Romans 8:29–30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:11–12) because man, in his fallen state, is both unable and unwilling to respond favorably to Christ’s offer of salvation.
• “draws him” = [Irresistible Grace] = God has elected a particular people to be the recipients of Christ’s atoning work. These people are drawn to Christ by a grace that is irresistible. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, John 6:44; 10:16). This teaching does not mean that God saves men against their will. Rather, God changes the heart of the rebellious unbeliever so that he now desires to repent and be saved. God’s elect will be drawn to Him, and that grace that draws them is, in fact, irresistible. God replaces the unbeliever’s heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). In Reformed theology, regeneration precedes faith.
• “I will raise him up on the last day.” = [Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints] = The particular people God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None of those whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure in Him (John 10:27–29; Romans 8:29–30; Ephesians 1:3–14). Some Reformed theologians prefer to use the term “Preservation of the Saints” as they believe that this choice of words more accurately describes how God is directly responsible for the preservation of His elect. It is clear in Scripture that Christ continues to intercede for His people (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25). This continues to provide believers with the assurance that those who belong to Christ are eternally His.

There are 4 of the 5 Doctrines of Grace presented in a single verse of scripture, utterly refuting the nonsensical claim that the Doctrines of Grace are found NOWHERE in Scripture. (So you may continue to believe the folly that YOU can come to God without the Father FIRST a drawing you and that Jesus may, or may not, raise you … but I will continue to believe the Doctrines of Grace taught from the lips of Jesus. God draws, God saves, God preserves … according to God’s purpose (like Romans 8:28-30 states).

In the context of John chapter 6, it’s the faithful Jews who had “heard and learned from the Father” (John 6:45). Conversely, according to John 12:32, a global drawing of “all men” doesn't occur until after Christ’s resurrection. So, then, in the context of John chapter 6, do the faithful Jews being given, drawn and granted by the Father “all” come to the Son? Yes indeed, and with perfect consistency. (John 7:17, 8:42) And none resist? Correct, because as Jesus said, “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.” (John 5:46) Jesus also said: “If God were your Father, you would love Me.” (John 8:42) Okay, so what exactly is this giving, drawing and granting? It’s a proclamation of the gospel in a way that offends unbelievers but appeals to the faithful. (Matthew 11:25; John 6:66-69) And why is Jesus mentioning the drawing of believers to unbelievers? So, they would know the true problem, which is that they are not right with God.

It is amazing how Calvinists read Calvinism into the text by inferring that the giving and drawing is of Calvinism’s “elect” and that the giving and drawing is figurative for “Irresistible Grace”. What plagues Calvinism are exactly these types of critical, unsupported assumptions.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is amazing how Calvinists read Calvinism into the text by inferring that the giving and drawing is of Calvinism’s “elect” and that the giving and drawing is figurative for “Irresistible Grace”. What plagues Calvinism are exactly these types of critical, unsupported assumptions.

Agreed, with Calvinist interpretations words almost always have special and unusual meanings, like "world" means "the lost" or "the elect" depending on context, and "all" means "all sorts of people" rather than everyone and so forth. Jehovah's witnesses do similar things with words, what the two systems have in common the need to redefine words to make the bible teach their teachings.

 

[atpollard]

In the context of John chapter 6, it’s the faithful Jews who had “heard and learned from the Father” (John 6:45).

Respectfully, in the context of the OT and NT, if we discount all of the text written to Jews and proto-Jews as somehow "not applicable" to Gentiles ... we can reduce the "Gentile Bible" to a handy PAMPHLET. Personally, I find "written to Jews" a poor excuse to ignore God's message to His People (which includes ALL those that God has chosen, Jew and Gentile).

The CONTEXT of the whole Gospel of John from " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." to "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." is that we may know, as in ... 1 John 5:13 [NASB] "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

... including John 6:44

[To your specific technical point about John 6:45]:

• All the Jews "heard" ... the WORD was read every year in public and every Sabbath in Synagogue ... so "all Jews" are without excuse.
• Only those whom God has "reserved for himself" had "ears to hear" and LEARNED.
• Jews with Ears to Hear learned BEFORE meeting Jesus and waited expectantly for the Messiah. Those who both learned and saw him are a tiny minority.
• Many waited and never saw [like the OT Saints] but died still waiting and "saw" only in heaven.
• Many more have been born after Jesus day or in another place and encountered Jesus as the Gentiles did ... FIRST being DRAWN TO Him and THEN Learning more About Him.
• We GENTILES must first be drawn TO JESUS before we can meaningfully learn of SPIRITUAL THINGS ... I suspect that this is true of ALL MANKIND, but leave open the door of possibility that men can learn something OF God before truly knowing God. I will only say that it was not so for me. As an ATHEIST, I first met JESUS, was then transformed, and only after that was I able to learn OF THE FATHER. For me, John 6:44 came before John 6:45 and not the other way around. I cannot but choose to disagree with your interpretation and limitation ... empirical experience will not allow me any other choice.

God bless.

 

[JLB777]

Why do you think it works that way? Why is confession, with belief of course, salvific?

Confessing Jesus as Lord is obeying the Gospel command to REPENT.


IOW confessing Jesus as Lord is obeying the Gospel; obeying the command to repent.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8


For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17




Repent means to turn to God, (in submission to Him as LORD).

If we are called to turn to God as our LORD, then by default we are called to turn away from Satan as our lord.

By confessing with our mouth Jesus as LORD, we are surrendering to Him as our King.

”Bending the knee“ in submission to Him as our LORD; our Master, Ruler, King, God.


This is fulfilling the law of faith, which requires obedience, which is why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26







JLB

 

[John Mullally]

Respectfully, in the context of the OT and NT, if we discount all of the text written to Jews and proto-Jews as somehow "not applicable" to Gentiles ... we can reduce the "Gentile Bible" to a handy PAMPHLET. Personally, I find "written to Jews" a poor excuse to ignore God's message to His People (which includes ALL those that God has chosen, Jew and Gentile).

The CONTEXT of the whole Gospel of John from " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." to "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." is that we may know, as in ... 1 John 5:13 [NASB] "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

... including John 6:44

[To your specific technical point about John 6:45]:

• All the Jews "heard" ... the WORD was read every year in public and every Sabbath in Synagogue ... so "all Jews" are without excuse.
• Only those whom God has "reserved for himself" had "ears to hear" and LEARNED.
• Jews with Ears to Hear learned BEFORE meeting Jesus and waited expectantly for the Messiah. Those who both learned and saw him are a tiny minority.
• Many waited and never saw [like the OT Saints] but died still waiting and "saw" only in heaven.
• Many more have been born after Jesus day or in another place and encountered Jesus as the Gentiles did ... FIRST being DRAWN TO Him and THEN Learning more About Him.
• We GENTILES must first be drawn TO JESUS before we can meaningfully learn of SPIRITUAL THINGS ... I suspect that this is true of ALL MANKIND, but leave open the door of possibility that men can learn something OF God before truly knowing God. I will only say that it was not so for me. As an ATHEIST, I first met JESUS, was then transformed, and only after that was I able to learn OF THE FATHER. For me, John 6:44 came before John 6:45 and not the other way around. I cannot but choose to disagree with your interpretation and limitation ... empirical experience will not allow me any other choice.

God bless.

You neglect the fact that in John 12:32, Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself post-Calvary and we live in the post-Calvary world. I referenced John 12:32 in post 1151.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”​

The Son’s post-Calvary drawing of all men according to John 12:32 should not be conflated with the Father’s pre-Calvary drawing of believers according to John 6:37-65.

 

[atpollard]

You neglect the fact that in John 12:32, Jesus says that He will draw all men to Himself post-Calvary and we live in the post-Calvary world. I referenced John 12:32 in post 1151.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
The Son’s post-Calvary drawing of all men according to John 12:32 should not be conflated with the Father’s pre-Calvary drawing of believers according to John 6:37-65.

RE: John 12:32

That is ONE perfectly valid understanding of the intended meaning of His claim to "draw all people to myself". To it's credit, the view that "all people" means "all people without exception" is the SIMPLEST and most LITERALLY DIRECT interpretation of his words (something that I personally favor whenever possible). To its discredit, it is not true. My father (just to name one specific example) was, and remains a confirmed atheist viewing religion as "the opiate of the masses" intended to give hope where none exists. Clearly, even though Jesus WAS "lifted up" my father (and MANY OTHERS) were not drawn to Him ... thus Jesus words in John 12:32 ring hollow and false ("all" does not mean "all without exception").

An ALTERNATIVE understanding of His claim to "draw all people to myself" would be "all people without distinction" ('some of each kind' to phrase it differently.) The difficulty of this view is that it is far less intuitive and literal from the actual words "all people". The credit to this view is that it agrees with both reality (Jesus does draw SOME of any and every possible group - rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, man, woman, race, language). Second, it is appropriate to the understanding of the original hearers where the news that SALVATION was no longer FOR JEWS and THROUGH THE TEMPLE, but FOR ALL and THROUGH CHRIST would have been a dramatic paradigm shift worthy of being recorded in the Gospels. Last, it agrees with the message and imagery of Revelation ...

Revelation 7:9-12 [NASB]​

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and [all the] tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches [were] in their hands; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and [around] the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might [belong] to our God forever and ever. Amen."​

... where Jesus words are fulfilled as REALITY.

The Son post-Calvary is the same God the Son of pre-Calvary and a lost sinner is the same lost sinner in need of a savior whether Adam, Abram, Moses, Joseph, Peter, Luke or us ... Ephesians 2:8-9 applies to ALL ('all without distinction', but not 'all without exception')!

 

[Derf]

RE: John 12:32

That is ONE perfectly valid understanding of the intended meaning of His claim to "draw all people to myself". To it's credit, the view that "all people" means "all people without exception" is the SIMPLEST and most LITERALLY DIRECT interpretation of his words (something that I personally favor whenever possible). To its discredit, it is not true. My father (just to name one specific example) was, and remains a confirmed atheist viewing religion as "the opiate of the masses" intended to give hope where none exists. Clearly, even though Jesus WAS "lifted up" my father (and MANY OTHERS) were not drawn to Him ... thus Jesus words in John 12:32 ring hollow and false ("all" does not mean "all without exception").

That is sad to hear that your father has not responded to the drawing. But it in no wise means there was no drawing of him. It means he has resisted the Holy Spirit. Your doctrine makes that hard to see, because you assume that the drawing cannot fail to produce a believer. Rather, many are called (drawn), but few are chosen. The king invited many to the wedding feast, but many refused to come. Even those that were later "compelled" to come were not all accepted, if they weren't in wedding garments.
[Luk 14:23 KJV] 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.

 

[John Mullally]

RE: John 12:32

That is ONE perfectly valid understanding of the intended meaning of His claim to "draw all people to myself". To it's credit, the view that "all people" means "all people without exception" is the SIMPLEST and most LITERALLY DIRECT interpretation of his words (something that I personally favor whenever possible). To its discredit, it is not true. My father (just to name one specific example) was, and remains a confirmed atheist viewing religion as "the opiate of the masses" intended to give hope where none exists. Clearly, even though Jesus WAS "lifted up" my father (and MANY OTHERS) were not drawn to Him ... thus Jesus words in John 12:32 ring hollow and false ("all" does not mean "all without exception").

An ALTERNATIVE understanding of His claim to "draw all people to myself" would be "all people without distinction" ('some of each kind' to phrase it differently.) The difficulty of this view is that it is far less intuitive and literal from the actual words "all people". The credit to this view is that it agrees with both reality (Jesus does draw SOME of any and every possible group - rich, poor, Jew, Gentile, man, woman, race, language). Second, it is appropriate to the understanding of the original hearers where the news that SALVATION was no longer FOR JEWS and THROUGH THE TEMPLE, but FOR ALL and THROUGH CHRIST would have been a dramatic paradigm shift worthy of being recorded in the Gospels. Last, it agrees with the message and imagery of Revelation ...

Revelation 7:9-12 [NASB]​

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and [all the] tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches [were] in their hands; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and [around] the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor, power, and might [belong] to our God forever and ever. Amen."​

... where Jesus words are fulfilled as REALITY.

The Son post-Calvary is the same God the Son of pre-Calvary and a lost sinner is the same lost sinner in need of a savior whether Adam, Abram, Moses, Joseph, Peter, Luke or us ... Ephesians 2:8-9 applies to ALL ('all without distinction', but not 'all without exception')!

There are many NT scriptures that reference terms translated as "world", "everyone", "all men", "all people", and "all" where the plain meaning is "all people without exception". Here are some examples in the NIV, where Calvinists commonly do not accept those terms to mean "all people without exception". In some of these examples where I cite all multiple times in the passage, Calvinists will commonly cling to an "all men without exception" for the first use, but not in subsequent uses (See 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 1 Corinthians 15:22, Romans 11:32, and Romans 5:18) - you can't have it both ways.

1. 1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
2. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
4. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
5. John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
6. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
7. Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
8. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
9. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all people and that cannot be misconstrued as possibly only applying to some.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

This is Calvinist Charles Spurgeon, citing that God desires all men to be saved without exception (1 Timothy 2:4):

“What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they,—‘that is, some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ if he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘all sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the ‘alls’ according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.​

​

There are a few references in Revelations, (like Revelation 7:9. Revelation 5:9, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 14:6), where it is obvious that John is speaking of all types of people. Ephesians 2:8-9 is not addressing all people.

 

[atpollard]

That is sad to hear that your father has not responded to the drawing. But it in no wise means there was no drawing of him. It means he has resisted the Holy Spirit. Your doctrine makes that hard to see, because you assume that the drawing cannot fail to produce a believer. Rather, many are called (drawn), but few are chosen. The king invited many to the wedding feast, but many refused to come. Even those that were later "compelled" to come were not all accepted, if they weren't in wedding garments.
[Luk 14:23 KJV] 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.

That is not within the definition of “draw”.

• If I draw a sword and it remains in the scabbard … it was NOT DRAWN.
• If I draw a net full of fish into the boat and all the fish remain in the ocean, they were NOT DRAWN in my net.
• If I draw your attention to the fact that you have misrepresented the meaning of “draw” and you still disagree, then your attention was NOT DRAWN.

 

[maxamir]

Obviously I can't "show you from the Holy Scriptures" the "doctrines of grace", because they are heretical.
Total Depravity, meaning that man cannot even repent without first being saved, is nowhere in the scriptures. Instead, God requires that men believe on Christ in order to be saved. And that IS in the scriptures numerous times, like Acts 16:30-31 KJV - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Unconditional Election, meaning that those that are elected are elected based on some unknown reason only God knows, is nowhere in the scriptures. Rather, election to salvation is in Christ, and all that belongs to Him belongs to us when we are "in Christ", which is a condition of election. Ephesians 1:13 KJV - In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Limited Atonement, meaning Christ only died for the elect, is nowhere in the scriptures. But Christ died for the ungodly: Romans 5:6 KJV - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Irresistible Grace, meaning that once elected no one can keep from being saved, is nowhere in the scriptures. Instead we find that men resist God all the time. Though Jesus, being lifted up, draws all men to Himself (John 12:32 KJV - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.), He still says that most people do not find life: Matthew 7:14 KJV - Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. In other words, they resist the drawing, which drawing is by the grace of God.

Perseverance of the Saints (Elect) in Calvinism is merely a tautology that says the elect are will be saved and the saved are elect, so it doesn't need any scriptural support. Rather those that have life in Christ, and walk in His Spirit can in no way be separated from the love of Christ. However, Jesus also makes it clear that we must persevere to the end.

Thank you for confirming once again that you do not believe in Holy Scripture which speaks of the doctrine of predestination which you always ignore, and not postdestination which you assume. But more importantly, you have made evident that you do not believe a person is saved by grace alone but instead but what they do and the Scriptures plainly state that all who do so are still under the curse (Jer 17:5, Gal 3:10).

I have laboured to teach the truth of Holy Scripture here to correct people like yourself but ultimately I know that unless a person is regenerated by God they will never see this, no matter how holy they claim to be. I am also called not to continue to warn those who sincerely do not seek the truth like you and your friend here and therefore I leave you with the testimony of Holy Scripture below and confirmation that your blood for perverting the holy Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is not upon me.