Is belief in an eternal punishment in hell necessary?

[Saint Steven]

However, if we do not judge ourselves properly and what we build in Christ does not survive, we come under judgement of God's wrath.

What do you mean when you write, "we come under judgement of God's wrath"?

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

What do you mean when you write, "we come under judgement of God's wrath"?

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I mean sometimes Christians do things that put them under the wrath of God. Now is this the same wrath that leads to the damnation of the wicked? No, but it is a wrath that requires discipline to be enacted.

1 Corinthians 11:29-30,32

"For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep....

But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

 

[Der Alte]

What do you mean when you write, "we come under judgement of God's wrath"?
1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Cor 3:15 NIV

This vs. is often quoted out-of-context as a UR "proof text." There is not one vs. in the entire Bible which states that an unsaved person is saved by having their ordinary, mundane works burned.

1 Corinthians 3:9
(9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

The "work" mentioned in vss. 13-15 is the work of building on the foundation of Jesus Christ by "labourers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building" vs. 9, not all mankind.

 

[didactics]

Again, two different types of judgements. The is the final judgement and disciplines. There is a final day where all Christians will be judged and deemed as righteous through Christ. Then there are diciplines.

"Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

As the verse says, if we judge ourselves properly we will not come under God's scrutiny. However, if we do not judge ourselves properly sometimes the Lord will discipline us so that we are not judged with this world.

Right, God "disciplines those he loves" (Heb 12:6; Pr 3:11 12). It just sounded like you were saying that they come under God's wrath and I wasn't sure that was accurate.

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

Right, God "disciplines those he loves" (Heb 12:6; Pr 3:11 12). It just sounded like you were saying that they come under God's wrath and I wasn't sure that was accurate.

Do they come under God's wrath? Yes, but not the same wrath that God judges the world out of. God is angry with the Christian, so he diciplines them. This discipline is a mercy though since it prevents them from being judged with the world. Then there is another wrath that God judges the world out of, and out of that comes eternal damnation.

 

[Saint Steven]

God is angry with the Christian, so he diciplines them. This discipline is a mercy though since it prevents them from being judged with the world.

Wow. How do you spell dysfunction?

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

Wow. How do you spell dysfunction?

The verse makes it clear.

"But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

Are they dicipline? Yes. But they are also a mercy since they prevent the Christians from being judged with the world.

 

[didactics]

Wow. How do you spell dysfunction?

I think what he says makes much better sense than what UR folks are saying.
Humans are valuable, but that doesn’t mean eternal hell is off the table. You also believe in hell, a place of agony. Although you think it is temporary which is quite a big difference. What does this show us: we are not worthless, yet we are deserving of hell. Even more than that: if God had not sent his Son to die on a cross, not a single person could justly be restored to him fully and completely. To say hell is temporary is a way of “letting God off the hook” because it’s hard to reconcile why God would ordain the existence of evil. This subject is related to biblical theodicy.


If God had not ordained the existence of evil, there could be no greater demonstration of his love for us—dying on our behalf as a substitute. Now here’s where we would part ways: it also shows the holiness of God that he has divine wrath—that he plans to display on some for all eternity.


Lastly, it shows the power of God in Christ’s resurrection, the savior. We visibly see how all are subject to physical death, or what you might call on death row. In that sense we are all subject to the death penalty, yet in pardoning some and saving their souls, are released from the penalty of sin.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think what he says makes much better sense than what UR folks are saying.
Humans are valuable, but that doesn’t mean eternal hell is off the table.

Not off the table? Alright, let's negotiate. - LOL
If humans are valuable, how could hell be on the table?
Hell is the most dehumanizing thing I can imagine.
No human in history has done ANYTHING as heinous as what is claimed that God will do in hell.

To mercilessly keep humans with the their full sensory perception "alive" for eternity in a state of burning
(unspeakable torment) with no hope of escape ever. Name a human that has committed a crime
against humanity WORSE than that! And you say eternal hell is NOT off the table?

You also believe in hell, a place of agony. Although you think it is temporary which is quite a big difference.

Hold the bus... I believe in the restoration of all creation. All of humankind will be (has been) redeemed. We will however need to be prepared to enter heaven, believer and unbeliever alike. Imagine the "agony" of having every idle thought and action revealed to all creation. And having to answer for it. Wailing and gnashing of teeth? Oh, yeah. That will be a Day. (Age)

What does this show us: we are not worthless, yet we are deserving of hell.

Ur... say what? Not sure those to can be conflated.
If we are NOT worthless, then we don't deserve what you call hell.

Even more than that: if God had not sent his Son to die on a cross, not a single person could justly be restored to him fully and completely.

Nothing to do with us. That was the plan all along, from the beginning.
God loves a good story. He won't spoil his own with "hell". Love wins.

To say hell is temporary is a way of “letting God off the hook” because it’s hard to reconcile why God would ordain the existence of evil. This subject is related to biblical theodicy.

Letting God off the hook? That's pretty assumptive. - LOL
Your definition of "hell" leaves sin unresolved forever.

If God had not ordained the existence of evil, there could be no greater demonstration of his love for us—dying on our behalf as a substitute. Now here’s where we would part ways: it also shows the holiness of God that he has divine wrath—that he plans to display on some for all eternity.

I agree with your first sentence, obviously. Thank you.

Holiness? Divine wrath to display?
How would we characterize this if it were human behavior?
Why would we put that on God?

Lastly, it shows the power of God in Christ’s resurrection, the savior. We visibly see how all are subject to physical death, or what you might call on death row. In that sense we are all subject to the death penalty, yet in pardoning some and saving their souls, are released from the penalty of sin.

We are mostly in agreement on this point. (shock and horror - LOL)
Jesus died to pay our death penalty. For the whole world.

BTW Thanks for your detailed reply. I really appreciate you.

 

[Basil the Great]

According the Athanasian Creed, belief in eternal punishment is a requirement for salvation. However, the Nicene Creed lists no such requirement.

 

[Andrewn]

The notion that hell is purgative or restorative is a dangerous theology that gives people the false sense of hope for salvation after death. It’s akin to the statement “surely you will not die”.

If we cannot present to non-Christians a loving Father and a self-abandoning sacrificing Lord and a fruitful Holy Spirit who deserve that we reciprocate their love, it is probably worthless to try to scare them with an unending hell.

Universalists need to strongly consider verse 25.

Eze 18:25 Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?

The way of the Lord is certainly fair and He did not say they would die forever.

The scriptures are not an opinion, they are not subjective, and what we choose to believe has no bearing on what will actually take place or God’s actual disposition. God is who He is regardless of our opinions and He will do what He said He will do regardless of popular opinion or human sentiment.

Amen.

 

[Andrewn]

Eternal suffering is not a contradiction with God's loving nature. The wicked are wicked and deserve the punishment God gives them.

Does justice demand a distinction between the punishment of someone who killed thousands and persecuted millions and someone else who died at a young age before hearing about Christ? Will all sinners get unending punishment?

God is a God of righteousness and justice. He will give each man what he deserves. According to Him the wicked deserve hell," where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched." (Mark 9:48).

The furnace is always burning does not mean that John Doe will be in it forever. Does it?

Does God go to great extents to give believers what they do not deserve? Yes. Does he go to the same extent for unbelievers? No, or they would be saved like believers.

You seem to believe that God selects some people for salvation and holds His grace from the rest/majority of people!

Jesus laid out the details plainly in Matthew 25:46, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

One group will go to punishment in the age to come. Another group will go to life in the age to come. The word aionios does not mean everlasting/unending.

God loves the righteous a lot indeed. He even prepared an eternal place for them. As for the unbelievers, of course his patience has limits.

This is poor theology. God loved the whole world and Christ died specifically for sinners.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

Rom 5:8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.

God describes the sheep and goats very differently. The sheep: Come, you who are blessed by My Father,... The goats: ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed,...

The goats deserved just punishment. God is just, would you say? Should they be vaporized, annihilated?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Does justice demand a distinction between the punishment of someone who killed thousands and persecuted millions and someone else who died at a young age before hearing about Christ? Will all sinners get unending punishment?


The furnace is always burning does not mean that John Doe will be in it forever. Does it?


You seem to believe that God selects some people for salvation and holds His grace from the rest/majority of people!


One group will go to punishment in the age to come. Another group will go to life in the age to come. The word aionios does not mean everlasting/unending.


This is poor theology. God loved the whole world and Christ died specifically for sinners.

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

Rom 5:8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.


The goats deserved just punishment. God is just, would you say? Should they be vaporized, annihilated?

Anyone who ends up before God on Judgment day and still thinks that Radical Evil and/or Sin is a good thing should probably ... ... ... !

 

[Andrewn]

Mark 9:47-48 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’"

If this statement is meant literally then you should pluck your eye.

The worms and fire are the situation, and they are described as unperishing and unquenching. Both the situation and duration is described.

Yes, but Jean Doe is not necessary in the furnace.

I mean sometimes Christians do things that put them under the wrath of God. Now is this the same wrath that leads to the damnation of the wicked? No, but it is a wrath that requires discipline to be enacted.

Are you saying that Christians are punished in this life or in Purgatory?

Do they come under God's wrath? Yes, but not the same wrath that God judges the world out of. God is angry with the Christian, so he diciplines them. This discipline is a mercy though since it prevents them from being judged with the world. Then there is another wrath that God judges the world out of, and out of that comes eternal damnation.

What a horrible picture of God. Are you a Calvinist? Do you actually teach this to unbelievers?

 

[Andrewn]

Are you saying “the blasphemy against the Spirit” means holding to the view of ECT (Mt 12:31 32)?

No, but the view that God tortures the majority of people forever is a serious misunderstanding of God's loving nature.

What do you make of the unforgivable sin as a UR proponent?

"Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was not unforgivable in the sense that God refused to forgive those who repented of it, but because in persisting in this sin they cut themselves off from the possibility of forgiveness."

What Is the Unforgivable Sin?

I suppose I cannot be the only pastor who has often been asked by his parishioners what the unforgivable sin is that Christ mentioned in the Gospel. Admittedly it can sound a bit alarming, especially to tender consciences. Christ said that “every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the...

www.oca.org

There is nothing unique about being a virgin if they can’t ever be criticized. Certainly the point of the story was to criticize half the virgins. What is the conclusion: the bridegroom does not know them. I think it’s pretty obvious from the story that it was too late for them. Nothing in that story correlates with the ideas of universal salvation.

"St. Seraphim of Sarov's interpretation of this parable occurs in his famous conversation called "Acquisition of the Holy Spirit" in which he said, "Some say that the lack of oil in the lamps of the foolish virgins means a lack of good deeds in their lifetime. Such an interpretation is not quite correct. Why should they be lacking in good deeds, if they are called virgins, even though foolish ones? Virginity is the supreme virtue, an angelic state, and it could take the place of all other good works. I think that what they were lacking was the grace of the All-Holy Spirit of God. These virgins practiced the virtues, but in their spiritual ignorance, they supposed that the Christian life consisted merely in doing good works. By doing a good deed they thought they were doing the work of God, but they cared little whether they acquired the grace of God's Spirit."

Parable of the Ten Virgins - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Fervent]

No, but the view that God tortures the majority of people forever is a serious misunderstanding of God's loving nature.

Of note is that God as torturer is not the only view of ECT, for example the Orthodox hold to an eternal suffering of the wicked but it is because the wicked respond to the presence of a Holy God with pain and agony. Just as the same water that hardens the egg softens the potato, so too does the same Holy Fire bring pleasure to the saved and perdition to the damned.

 

[FineLinen]

Matthew 25:46, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

God loves the righteous a lot indeed. He even prepared an eternal place for them.

As for the unbelievers, of course his patience has limits. That's why it's eternal punishment, because at that point he is done with them.

The entire context of Matthew 25 has nothing to do with the wicked. It is directed towards Yah's followers.

God is never done with us, His patience exceeds our deepest depth of despair!

God = Source, Guide & Goal of ta pante.

 

[Der Alte]

No, but the view that God tortures the majority of people forever is a serious misunderstanding of God's loving nature. ...

How do you understand/interpret Matt 25:46?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT, 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning/no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Not sure I can agree with that. Maybe you need to define what you mean by "conscience"?
How would the Spirit convict us of sin if we have no working conscience?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Scripture says:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Is this how we measure God's morality?

 

[Halbhh]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

Generally knowledge of various kinds isn't a requirement, but the way given by Christ to us to...'know God', that is to believe in Him -- to have faith in Christ -- and to love God. And, 'God is love' we read in 1rst John.

It's almost just a side note, but it can be important for some to learn that are troubled about it:

The individuals who refuse to love others -- those in unrepentant sins (sins are to intentionally harm others or to refuse to love them) -- are mercifully allowed to 'perish' in the 'second death' which will 'destroy body and soul', and that is an eternal punishment, because it's forever, irreversible. They cease to exist and won't come back.