Is belief in an eternal punishment in hell necessary?

[public hermit]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

 

[Brother-Mike]

My vote would be that BELIEF IN the eternal lake of fire wouldn't be a stumbling block for your own personal salvation presuming that that's the only point of discrepancy between you and the Bible. But of course the danger here would be "hey, if you're going to ignore that part of scripture, then why not others?" How would you know that your resting place of beliefs is still Christian?

 

[dqhall]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

A person can go through some hell on earth before death, like being paralyzed, dying of cancer, or suffering guilt and punishment from doing crimes.

Heaven can be found on earth too as Jesus taught them to pray, “On earth as it is in heaven.”

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the wheat was gathered and put into the barn while the weeds were burned, so as to not set seed. The wheat is likened to the righteous and the weeds are like those perpetrating sin.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.
Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?
I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.
Divine punishment? Is it needed?
This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

Only if a belief in scripture is necessary.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

It's something God does, we're expected to understand everything God does in order to be saved?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

A person can go through some hell on earth before death, like being paralyzed, dying of cancer, or suffering guilt and punishment from doing crimes.

Heaven can be found on earth too as Jesus taught them to pray, “On earth as it is in heaven.”

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the wheat was gathered and put into the barn while the weeds were burned, so as to not set seed. The wheat is likened to the righteous and the weeds are like those perpetrating sin.

How exactly is being punished for doing wrong equivalent to "hell"? I'm very curious to hear this.

 

[public hermit]

It's something God does, we're expected to understand everything God does in order to be saved?

Are you asking if we have to know everything God does to be saved? I certainly wouldn't think so. No one could be saved on that account.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

I don't think belief in a literal, eternal hell is necessary for salvation. After all, the scriptures state that faith is what saves, not knowledge.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are you asking if we have to know everything God does to be saved? I certainly wouldn't think so. No one could be saved on that account.

My point exactly, the "who then could be saved" passage came to remembrance when I was posting.

 

[public hermit]

I don't think belief in a literal, eternal hell is necessary for salvation. After all, the scriptures state that faith is what saves, not knowledge.

That makes sense, I think.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

yes, gnosis does not save.

 

[public hermit]

yes, gnosis does not save.

True, unless you're Clement of Alexandria.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

True, unless you're Clement of Alexandria.

Is that the clement of the secret gospel of mark text?

 

[public hermit]

Is that the clement of the secret gospel of mark text?

I'm not familiar with that reference, but he argued against gnosticism with the true "gnosis" based in faith in Christ (not esoteric knowledge). Of course, some would argue he was also a bit gnostic in his use of Greek philosophy.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm not familiar with that reference, but he argued against gnosticism with the true "gnosis" based in faith in Christ (not esoteric knowledge). Of course, some would argue he was also a bit gnostic in his use of Greek philosophy.

I guess that reference from the letters "what is falsely called knowledge (gnosis)" referred to the gnostics.

I think I read it online once, there's a good collection of early christian writings at this link: Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

 

[d taylor]

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​

The only condition given to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is faith/belief/trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

If one had to believe in other areas of truth, of The Bible, then many would be in trouble. Heck there is enough problem with just simple faith for Eternal Life salvation for many now.

But also the eventual destination of people who never received God's free gift of Eternal Life, the lake of fire. I believe is being mis-characterized as a place of torture for sin. I just have not seen that from The Bible. i do know these people are described as having their worm that never dies.

https://faithalone.org/blog/given-eternal-conscious-torment-is-gods-justice-ever-satisfied/

What Edward Fudge Can’t Believe about The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Water and Fire]

Not only is it not necessary, it will work against you being able to know God.

 

[Der Alte]

The only condition given to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is faith/belief/trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.
If one had to believe in other areas of truth, of The Bible, then many would be in trouble. Heck there is enough problem with just simple faith for Eternal Life salvation for many now.
But also the eventual destination of people who never received God's free gift of Eternal Life, the lake of fire. I believe is being mis-characterized as a place of torture for sin. I just have not seen that from The Bible. i do know these people are described as having their worm that never dies.
https://faithalone.org/blog/given-eternal-conscious-torment-is-gods-justice-ever-satisfied/
What Edward Fudge Can’t Believe about The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) – Grace Evangelical Society

Went to the Fudge link and immediately disagreed. Whatever the Lazarus and the rich man narrative is, it is not a parable.
The word "parable" is derived from the Greek word "parabole'" which literally means throw or place beside. Something unknown/not understood is explained/clarified by comparison with something known/understood.
Luke 16:19-31is not in the proper format of a parable.
For example, Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
There is no "X is like unto to Y" in Luke 16:19-31
This story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
17 times the writer identifies the parables.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, but it is not a parable.
…..All of the unquestioned parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name; Lazarus, otherwise unknown, Abraham and Moses.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus lied. Would Jesus use a false statement to make a point?
What most folks don’t know about the rich man, he violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

All of the ECF who quoted Luk 16:19-31 considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[wendykvw]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

The way some make it sound believing in eternal hell is the mark of a genuine follower of Christ. Yet Matthew 25:46 indicates the fruit of a genuine follower is love and compassion.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm primarily asking those who believe that some people will be punished in hell eternally.

Is the belief that eternal punishment in hell awaits some people necessary for salvation?

I created a similar thread on whether punishment, itself, was needed.

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

This is a different question. Is the belief needed for salvation? Feel free to explain yourself.

It's a little bit mixed, like you need to know what you're saved from I think, which is sin and the punishment for sin. But I don't necessarily think that it needs to be eternal hell to be saved, as long as you know you are a sinner, and sin has a punishment, and Christ took that punishment for you to pay for your sins.

If you don't believe in any sort of punishment, then what do you believe Christ died for? Why did Christ have to die to do it? You then start breaking down what Christ's atoning work was and you come out the other side with a different gospel, one that does not save.

As long as you can come to the conclusion that my sin, and your sin, has a punishment, that it is deserved, and Christ died, taking that punishment in your place, so that you can be forgiven and reconciled to God.. (and believing in the divinity of Christ, to know WHO paid for your sins), I think that covers the essential doctrine at least.
You do need a saving gospel, and to be saved you need to be saved FROM something.

 

[dqhall]

How exactly is being punished for doing wrong equivalent to "hell"? I'm very curious to hear this.

Some people were crucified for crimes they did. They may have died in agony not knowing a God of salvation.

A story by John Milton called “Paradise Lost,” is responsible for some of the ideology about hell as a place of eternal torture after death. It is not Biblical.

Years ago they gave mental patients high voltage shocks (electric shock therapy). They claimed patients were being cured. The electric shocks were torture, not a medical cure. It was like hell on earth for one separated from God.

Obesity increases risk of cancer. Obesity is a sin. People prayed for health and prosperity, then indulged in gluttony. Prayer without faith is ineffective. Cancer patients might think cancer is hell. They got medical bills and their bodies were devoured by malignancy. It is easy to lose hope in such a situation, unless one knows Jesus.