Is belief in an eternal punishment in hell necessary?

[Saint Steven]

The scriptures are not an opinion, they are not subjective...

Well they certainly are interpretive, which is an opinion. Even Jesus knew this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps that person was thinking about what was actually written in the scriptures. It’s not hard to come to that conclusion when you read what was actually written.

Have you read the actual manuscripts? All we have are biased translations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Our Father seeks every last one of us. He is the Great Shepherd reaching to every lost one of us.

His love has NO limits.

That’s not at all scriptural.

““Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

 

[Saint Steven]

What I talked about is what he revealed in the scripture: "where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’"

I imagine you haven't seen this yet.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well they certainly are interpretive, which is an opinion. Even Jesus knew this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

You’ve already presented that error and I already proved to you from the same passage that your wrong.

“And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Interpretation is irrelevant because there’s still only one truth. This isn’t even a matter of interpretation it’s a matter of putting human sentiment over the word of God. That’s always been the biggest problem with universalism because it’s based on human sentiment not scripture.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus laid out the details plainly in Matthew 25:46, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The righteous, that is the righteous in Jesus, will go to eternal life while the others will go into eternal punishment. Where the unbelievers go at the end is both described as eternal and punishment, a direct contrast to the believer's eternal life.

This is highly controversial. I guess we are in the right section of the forum to discuss it. - LOL
See my previous post to you and also consider this alternative translation.
Note: One age proceeds the next. Also see Mark 10:30

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[didactics]

The blasphemy of the Spirit occurs when one attributes to our God that which does not originate in Him. Discipleship asks Jesus how to pray, and the Master responds "our Father..." ABBA is not our Judge primarily, He is our Father who so dearly loves us!

ABBA FATHER

To address the Father is an affectionate way one relates to God. But, who was it that gave all authority to Jesus “over all flesh, that to all whom […] given Him, He may give eternal life.” (Jn 17:2)? Answer: the Father.


Are you saying “the blasphemy against the Spirit” means holding to the view of ECT (Mt 12:31 32)? What do you make of the unforgivable sin as a UR proponent?

 

[Fervent]

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

No, they don't. They use a related word, aion, but the usage of aion is distinct from the usage of aionios.

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

This is highly controversial. I guess we are in the right section of the forum to discuss it. - LOL
See my previous post to you and also consider this alternative translation.
Note: One age proceeds the next. Also see Mark 10:30

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

If what you were saying is true their worms would die and the fires would be quenched, but that is not what the Lord says.

Mark 9:47-48

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’"

 

[Saint Steven]

Interpretation is irrelevant because there’s still only one truth. This isn’t even a matter of interpretation it’s a matter of putting human sentiment over the word of God. That’s always been the biggest problem with universalism because it’s based on human sentiment not scripture.

There is no interpretive or doctrinal consensus. Should we dismiss everyone whose doctrines don't align with ours?

It's easy to spot a religious cult. They meet in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same way about you. What is accomplished with that mindset?

 

[Saint Steven]

If what you were saying is true their worms would die and the fires would be quenched...

That's the common view.
But this describes the worms and fire, not the duration or situation.
You are familiar with this?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I imagine you haven't seen this yet.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

It’s a good thing that we don’t have to rely solely on the definition of the words aion and aionios since the condemnation has been referred to in the scriptures so many times in so many different ways that don’t use these two words.

““Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I noticed you included Matthew 12:32 which was a mistake because Luke 12:10 gives a parallel of the same message without using aion.

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Luke 12:10 simply says it will not be forgiven period. This supports the interpretation that it is an eternal sin that it will not be forgiven in this age or in the next age, or in any age. Your interpretation implies that it will eventually be forgiven which contradicts Luke 12:10 that says it will not. The other parallels also say it will not be forgiven and that it will never be forgiven and your misinterpretation of the words aion and aionios doesn’t change that fact.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is no interpretive or doctrinal consensus. Should we dismiss everyone whose doctrines don't align with ours?

It's easy to spot a religious cult. They meet in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same way about you. What is accomplished with that mindset?

Yes we should dismiss every heresy that doesn’t line up with scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's the common view.
But this describes the worms and fire, not the duration or situation.
You are familiar with this?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This only pertains to people who are “building on the foundation of Christ”. This doesn’t pertain to unbelievers.

 

[didactics]

Nothing in the Master's words are regarding the wicked. The entire context is directed to pure virgins who are not prepared for the Bridegroom with oil in their lamps. The two animals presented are both clean animals, not one clean & the other unclean. These are servants of of the Master who are coming up short & ending for aionios correction!

The foundation for everlasting punishment =

1. I was hungry & you gave me no meat.

2. I was thirsty & you gave me no drink.

3. I was a stranger & you took me not in.

4. I was naked & you clothed me not.

5. I was sick & you did not visit me.

6. I was in prison & you did not minister to me.

The five virgins were foolish. Does this not display their impurity of heart? Is not a married man able to be pure by contrast? There is nothing unique about being a virgin if they can’t ever be criticized. Certainly the point of the story was to criticize half the virgins. What is the conclusion: the bridegroom does not know them. I think it’s pretty obvious from the story that it was too late for them. Nothing in that story correlates with the ideas of universal salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is highly controversial. I guess we are in the right section of the forum to discuss it. - LOL
See my previous post to you and also consider this alternative translation.
Note: One age proceeds the next. Also see Mark 10:30

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

“For the Son of Man is going away just as it is written about Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭14‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

That's the common view.
But this describes the worms and fire, not the duration or situation.
You are familiar with this?

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The worms and fire are the situation, and they are described as unperishing and unquenching. Both the situation and duration is described.

The flames aren't talking about the flames of hell, but rather God's punishments which are a mercy to Christians. Look here.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32

"Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

If we judged ourselves properly and what we built in Christ survives, we will receive a reward. However, if we do not judge ourselves properly and what we build in Christ does not survive, we come under judgement of God's wrath. However, that judgment is discipline, so it is flames that one escapes through. They are flames that prevent Christians from being condemned with the world.

 

[didactics]

The worms and fire are the situation, and they are described as unperishing and unquenching. Both the situation and duration is described.

The flames aren't talking about the flames of hell, but rather God's punishments which are a mercy to Christians. Look here.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32

"Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

If we judged ourselves properly and what we built in Christ survives, we will receive a reward. However, if we do not judge ourselves properly and what we build in Christ does not survive, we come under judgement of God's wrath. However, that judgment is discipline, so it is flames that one escapes through. They are flames that prevent Christians from being condemned with the world.

You should consider 2Co 5:10 as “judgement seat” is translated from the Gr. word bēma—an elevated platform where victorious athletes went to receive their crowns (a wreath of greenery). The term can also be used to refer to the place of judging, as when Jesus stood before Pontius Pilate (Mt 27:19; Jn 19:13). The reference here must be from the athletic analogy. For the Christian, their judgement of sins took place at the cross (Eph 1:7).

 

[Der Alte]

This is highly controversial. I guess we are in the right section of the forum to discuss it. - LOL
See my previous post to you and also consider this alternative translation.
Note: One age proceeds the next. Also see Mark 10:30
Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

....

Problem #1 Robert Young was self-taught in Hebrew and Greek and his YLT is fraught with errors.
Problem #2 "aionios" is an adjective it cannot be translated as the noun "age."

 

[UsernamedNamedUser]

You should consider 2Co 5:10 as “judgement seat” is translated from the Gr. word bēma—an elevated platform where victorious athletes went to receive their crowns (a wreath of greenery). The term can also be used to refer to the place of judging, as when Jesus stood before Pontius Pilate (Mt 27:19; Jn 19:13). The reference here must be from the athletic analogy. For the Christian, their judgement of sins took place at the cross (Eph 1:7).

Again, two different types of judgements. The is the final judgement and disciplines. There is a final day where all Christians will be judged and deemed as righteous through Christ. Then there are diciplines.

"Now if we judged ourselves properly, we would not come under judgment. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

As the verse says, if we judge ourselves properly we will not come under God's scrutiny. However, if we do not judge ourselves properly sometimes the Lord will discipline us so that we are not judged with this world.