Is belief enough to be saved?

[Thunder 88]

If you believe, you will act upon it. Faith without works is useless.

 

[Hentenza]

Who is saying that? Have we not all said salvation comes only by faith in Gods grace? Did not James, Paul and Jesus speak of good works? Why shouldn't we?

Because neither James nor Paul nor Jesus make works part of salvation. Works are result of salvation not a requirement for salvation. If you make it a requirement for salvation then yes, you are indeed throwing out grace in favor of works. Grace is free. No one can work for grace.

 

[B-74]

Because neither James nor Paul nor Jesus make works part of salvation. Works are result of salvation not a requirement for salvation. If you make it a requirement for salvation then yes, you are indeed throwing out grace in favor of works. Grace is free. No one can work for grace.

You guys are impossible to debate scriptures with. But i love you anyway.

 

[Hentenza]

If you believe, you will act upon it. Faith without works is useless.

Anyone can work but only those with faith can do the works of God prepared in advance for us so that we can't boast. Read Ephesians 2. Works are done from salvation not for salvation. All Christians have works. Some more, some less.

 

[Hentenza]

You guys are impossible. But i love you anyway.

Hey, the love of Christ conquers all.

 

[B-74]

Hey, the love of Christ conquers all.

 

[Habakk]

You pose a false dilemma. No one here is even hinting that "there is nothing left to do".

Eph. 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There is plenty to do but we do these works from salvation not for salvation since even the works that we do are not our own so that we can not boast.

Paul did works from salvation not for salvation. Paul had assurance of salvation.

2 Cor. 5
1 For we know that if [a]the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

7 for we walk by faith, not by [c]sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Notice the "We". Paul included.

Phil. 4:3
3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Paul knew that others with him were written in the book of life. Do you think that Paul did not know if His name was in the book of life?

Yes I know all that and no I'm not posing a false dilemma. I'm in fact posting perspective because the argument is becoming polarised and we are getting nowhere.

I was posting something that I think we can all agree on and hopefully bring some perspective to the discussion. However I think there is intent on the thread to just argue for arguments sake and this is when it becomes non-productive.

I’m not questioning the fact that that you can know that your salvation is secure or that Paul did not know his salvation was secure. However Predestination, Foreknowledge and Free Will is a big subject and I suspect that a large element of the discussion involves essentially Calvinistic doctrine principles. Anyway I don’t want to get into that argument of “once saved always saved.”

 

[Frogster]

Call me an optimist...



YOU SAY that Abraham was justified when he believed, but James says contrary. According to scripture, which I'll place above your opinion (or even my own) any day, the scripture that says Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness was fulfilled when his faith wrought with his works or when he attempted to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to what God had commanded him. You're wrong. The scriptures are right. It's that simple.

Also, Paul could not only use Abraham in that context, but he did use Abraham in that context. Look, your problem is simple...

Anytime I or anybody else says "good works", you hear "works of the law". They're not the same thing. Deal with it. Paul preached good works TO EVERYBODY. Here it is, IN HIS OWN WORDS:

Acts 26:19-20

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: BUT SHEWED UNTO THEM OF DAMASCUS, AND AT JERUSALEM, AND THROUGHOUT ALL THE COASTS OF JUDEA, AND THEN TO THE GENTILES, THAT THEY SHOULD REPENT AND TURN TO GOD, AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE."

That's pretty simple, isn't it? Paul told both Jews and Gentiles to not only repent towards God, but also to DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE. He also said the following:

Ephesians 2:10

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them."

Are you against what GOD ordained? Incidentally, this "we" included both Jew (Paul and others) and Gentiles.

I Timothy 2:9-10

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array, But (which becometh women professing godliness) WITH GOOD WORKS."

Paul said that women who profess godliness should adorn themselves WITH GOOD WORKS. Do you agree or disagree?

I Timothy 5:9-10

"Let not a widow be taken in the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, WELL REPORTED OF FOR GOOD WORKS..."

Paul wouldn't even let a widow come under the church's care unless she was WELL REPORTED OF FOR GOOD WORKS. To listen to the nonsense that you and others keep on espousing, one would think that he would have told such widows that they were "bewitched" or something. Again, GOOD WORKS are NOT synonymous with "the works of the law"...if you believe Paul, that is.

I Timothy 6:17-18

"Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, THAT THEY BE RICH IN GOOD WORKS, ready to distribute, willing to communicate..."

When Paul charged those who are rich to BE RICH IN GOOD WORKS, was he bringing them back under the law? To listen to you (and some others) speak, that's what one would have to conclude. It's ridiculous.

II Timothy 3:16-17

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS."

The entirety of scripture was given that we might be THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS. Seriously, can't you see how off your current position is? Again, GOOD WORKS are NOT synonymous with "the works of the law"...according to Paul.

Titus 1:16

"They profess that they know God, BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, AND UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Does this need commentary? Those who profess to know God and deny Him IN WORKS are abominable, disobedient and reprobate.

Titus 2:6-7

"Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. IN ALL THINGS SHEWING THYSELF A PATTERN OF GOOD WORKS: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity..."

Was Paul placing these young men "under the law"? Again, it's ridiculous.

I Timothy 2:11-15

"For THE GRACE OF GOD that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Did you see that? THE GRACE OF GOD THAT BRINGS SALVATION teaches us some things. One of the things that it teaches us is that Jesus gave Himself for us that we would be ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. Oh, dear. Poor, misguided Paul. "Fusing" grace and works, again. Well, let's hope that he made it...by the skin of his teeth.

Titus 3:8

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, THAT THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Paul said that such things ought to be affirmed constantly and, yet, you and others rail against such constantly. Someone is in grievous error and it is you.

Titus 3:14

"And let ours also learn TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."

More of the same. Incidentally, all of these quotes from Timothy and Titus are in Paul's PASTORAL EPISTLES. Bad, bad Paul...corrupting the whole church.

Oh, well, as usual, I fully expect that you'll ignore all of these verses and just answer with some unrelated nonsense about "the works of the law". No worries. Somebody will get it.

Good night.

no no ..Post just abrahamic scriptures, and paul. u r also wrong, it does not mention imputed righteosuness in gen 22. Does it?

lets see clear text, using abraham from Paul, shouldn't be too hard, romans 4, and 9, gal 3 and 4, i await.

 

[B-74]

no no ..Post just abrahamic scriptures, and paul. u r also wrong, it does not mention imputed righteosuness in gen 22. Does it?

lets see clear text, using abraham from Paul, shouldn't be too hard, romans 4, and 9, gal 3 and 4, i await.

banging head on wall...

 

[Frogster]

Call me an optimist...



YOU SAY that Abraham was justified when he believed, but James says contrary. According to scripture, which I'll place above your opinion (or even my own) any day, the scripture that says Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness was fulfilled when his faith wrought with his works or when he attempted to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to what God had commanded him. You're wrong. The scriptures are right. It's that simple.

Also, Paul could not only use Abraham in that context, but he did use Abraham in that context. Look, your problem is simple...

Anytime I or anybody else says "good works", you hear "works of the law". They're not the same thing. Deal with it. Paul preached good works TO EVERYBODY. Here it is, IN HIS OWN WORDS:

Acts 26:19-20

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: BUT SHEWED UNTO THEM OF DAMASCUS, AND AT JERUSALEM, AND THROUGHOUT ALL THE COASTS OF JUDEA, AND THEN TO THE GENTILES, THAT THEY SHOULD REPENT AND TURN TO GOD, AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE."

That's pretty simple, isn't it? Paul told both Jews and Gentiles to not only repent towards God, but also to DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE. He also said the following:

Ephesians 2:10

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them."

Are you against what GOD ordained? Incidentally, this "we" included both Jew (Paul and others) and Gentiles.

I Timothy 2:9-10

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array, But (which becometh women professing godliness) WITH GOOD WORKS."

Paul said that women who profess godliness should adorn themselves WITH GOOD WORKS. Do you agree or disagree?

I Timothy 5:9-10

"Let not a widow be taken in the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, WELL REPORTED OF FOR GOOD WORKS..."

Paul wouldn't even let a widow come under the church's care unless she was WELL REPORTED OF FOR GOOD WORKS. To listen to the nonsense that you and others keep on espousing, one would think that he would have told such widows that they were "bewitched" or something. Again, GOOD WORKS are NOT synonymous with "the works of the law"...if you believe Paul, that is.

I Timothy 6:17-18

"Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, THAT THEY BE RICH IN GOOD WORKS, ready to distribute, willing to communicate..."

When Paul charged those who are rich to BE RICH IN GOOD WORKS, was he bringing them back under the law? To listen to you (and some others) speak, that's what one would have to conclude. It's ridiculous.

II Timothy 3:16-17

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS."

The entirety of scripture was given that we might be THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS. Seriously, can't you see how off your current position is? Again, GOOD WORKS are NOT synonymous with "the works of the law"...according to Paul.

Titus 1:16

"They profess that they know God, BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, AND UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Does this need commentary? Those who profess to know God and deny Him IN WORKS are abominable, disobedient and reprobate.

Titus 2:6-7

"Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. IN ALL THINGS SHEWING THYSELF A PATTERN OF GOOD WORKS: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity..."

Was Paul placing these young men "under the law"? Again, it's ridiculous.

I Timothy 2:11-15

"For THE GRACE OF GOD that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Did you see that? THE GRACE OF GOD THAT BRINGS SALVATION teaches us some things. One of the things that it teaches us is that Jesus gave Himself for us that we would be ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. Oh, dear. Poor, misguided Paul. "Fusing" grace and works, again. Well, let's hope that he made it...by the skin of his teeth.

Titus 3:8

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, THAT THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Paul said that such things ought to be affirmed constantly and, yet, you and others rail against such constantly. Someone is in grievous error and it is you.

Titus 3:14

"And let ours also learn TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."

More of the same. Incidentally, all of these quotes from Timothy and Titus are in Paul's PASTORAL EPISTLES. Bad, bad Paul...corrupting the whole church.

Oh, well, as usual, I fully expect that you'll ignore all of these verses and just answer with some unrelated nonsense about "the works of the law". No worries. Somebody will get it.

Good night.

anyone can paste all over a page like this, but lets have a clear, coherent conversation using Paul, and Abe...

give me 1..1 pauline verse, with Abe, to push law life, and law and grace fusion. 1..

 

[Frogster]

banging head on wall...

post 1...maybe u and our other friend, wanna take on the frog, with paul and Abraham, on my side..

 

[B-74]

anyone can paste all over a page like this, but lets have a clear, coherent conversation using Paul, and Abe...

give me 1..1 pauline verse, with Abe, to push law life, and law and grace fusion. 1..

Never mind that was out of line, forgive me.

 

[God's Word]

Ephesians 2:10

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them."

Are you against what GOD ordained? Incidentally, this "we" included both Jew (Paul and others) and Gentiles.
​

Wait a minute. Which translation are you using? Your translation is missing προητοίμασεν which means before hand. The verse should read:

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Also, the two verses right before this one read:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [h]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Salvation is a gift. It is freely given. No one can work for salvation. Grace is not grace if one has to work for it.
​

Oooops...:o

Actually, my translation isn't missing anything. It was a typo on my part. I don't know about anybody else, but I type out all of my scriptural citations myself and don't cut & paste them from somewhere else. Sorry for the unintended omission. Good catch.

Incidentally, I did post the same verse in this thread two other times, earlier today. In fact, I also included the two preceding verses, as they don't hurt my position at all, but actually prove it. IOW, Paul clearly states that we're not saved by the works of the law and then tells us that we've been saved UNTO GOOD WORKS. I have no problem understanding that, as GOOD WORKS and "the works of the law" are not synonymous. Good luck trying to get Frogster to understand/admit that, though...

 

[Frogster]

What do you think of Revelation 16:13?

gee..abraham, the great abe, that paul used to ward off law, u can't give m 1 verse from Paul, using Abe, the man Paul used to ward off law and grace fusion? not 1?

here is a better head banger thingy too...

 

[God's Word]

Oh, well, as usual, I fully expect that you'll ignore all of these verses and just answer with some unrelated nonsense about "the works of the law". No worries. Somebody will get it.

Good night.

anyone can paste all over a page like this, but lets have a clear, coherent conversation using Paul, and Abe...

give me 1..1 pauline verse, with Abe, to push law life, and law and grace fusion. 1..

Thanks for proving me right.

 

[Wally Cleaver]

These people believed and were saved... we can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit just like they did, the moment we believe.

Meh.......I'm think'n no one is saved until their actually saved, ie. in heaven, and holy spirit is simply an understanding, and then doing of; Gods will, but you can mess it up...

 

[Frogster]

Thanks for proving me right.

post 1...just 1, from Paul using the father of faith.,,just 1 please.

 

[B-74]

post 1...maybe u and our other friend, wanna take on the frog, with paul and Abraham, on my side..

I have Jesus, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Timothy and Paul, Jude and David. You're out gunned my friend.

 

[Frogster]

Thanks for proving me right.

naa..i mentioned Abe, but u did not rebutt using abe, filling a page does not prove rebuttal, to our issue, which at the time, was abe.

 

[Frogster]

I have Jesus, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Timothy and Paul, Jude and David. You're out gunned my friend.

i am filled with an exceeding amount of fear and trembling, by your rebuttal...