Is belief enough to be saved?

[B-74]

gee..abraham, the great abe, that paul used to ward off law, u can't give m 1 verse from Paul, using Abe, the man Paul used to ward off law and grace fusion? not 1?

here is a better head banger thingy too...

Sorry, i couldn't resist the revelation thing i did edit and i do apologize.

 

[Frogster]

Sorry, i couldn't resist, i did edit and i do apologize.

no need to be sorry, were just having a bit of fun, no big deal..

 

[Lion King]

Yes but perfection is not attainable in this life so there will always be infirmity.

Are you not contradicting yourself?

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

Perfection seems plausible from that passage you have just given me...All things are possible with the LORD. If The LORD perfected the faiths of all the righteous men and women of old, why can't He also do it to us?

Yes but look at what Paul tells us in Philippians 1:6

6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

God began the good work (faith) and will perfect that work until the day of Christ Jesus. We can not be univocal with Christ because we are still not perfect and can not be perfect in this life. We will sin and not love perfectly. In fact, it is impossible for us to love perfectly which is why the works that the Christian with saving faith does is the one prepared by God in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10). The works that we can not boast about. This why Jesus died on the cross, to secure for us an eternal life even while we are still sinners (Rom. 5:8). The assurance of salvation extends only to those with saving faith in Jesus Christ. The works that we do we do from salvation not for salvation.

As I stated earlier that's not how I define saving faith, brother. To me, what you call "saving faith" is simply faith that has already been perfected by works (love), and not one that hasn't yet.

With that said, I fully agree with you that He who began as good work in us, will perform it, till the day Jesus Christ returns. However, The Father can only perfect our faith if we remain in Him; that is to mean, if we do not stray from the path of righteousness.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. John 15:1-8

Remember that not a single one that the Father has given Jesus will be removed from His hand.

I understand what you mean, but only the LORD knows who are His. This is why Peter instructs us to make every effort to confirm our calling and election.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11

 

[B-74]

no need to be sorry, were just having a bit of fun, no big deal..

Cool.

 

[Frogster]

Cool.

here is a good one, if someone won't listen..hehehehe

 

[B-74]

here is a good one, if someone won't listen..hehehehe

I like the head banging one.

 

[Frogster]

I like the head banging one.

me too.

 

[Habakk]

no need to be sorry, were just having a bit of fun, no big deal..

Fun is good if it promotes a friendly discussion

 

[Frogster]

Fun is good if it promotes a friendly discussion

I agree, it adds to the same repetitive conversation.

 

[B-74]

I agree, it adds to the same repetitive conversation.

Agreement would be better though.

 

[Habakk]

I agree, it adds to the same repetitive conversation.

I’m beginning to realise that whatever thread I join in GT the subject matter always ends up as essentially Law v Grace in some form or other. Is this a law on the GT forum and how do we find grace to be free from the snare of this law?

 

[Hentenza]

Oooops...:o

Actually, my translation isn't missing anything. It was a typo on my part. I don't know about anybody else, but I type out all of my scriptural citations myself and don't cut & paste them from somewhere else. Sorry for the unintended omission. Good catch.

Ah! that explains it. No problem.

Incidentally, I did post the same verse in this thread two other times, earlier today. In fact, I also included the two preceding verses, as they don't hurt my position at all, but actually prove it. IOW, Paul clearly states that we're not saved by the works of the law and then tells us that we've been saved UNTO GOOD WORKS. I have no problem understanding that, as GOOD WORKS and "the works of the law" are not synonymous. Good luck trying to get Frogster to understand/admit that, though...

Ephesians 2:1-10 is not teaching about works of the law but works in general. Paul is not referring to works of the law in these verses.

 

[Frogster]

Call me an optimist...



YOU SAY that Abraham was justified when he believed, but James says contrary. According to scripture, which I'll place above your opinion (or even my own) any day, the scripture that says Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness was fulfilled when his faith wrought with his works or when he attempted to sacrifice Isaac in obedience to what God had commanded him. You're wrong. The scriptures are right. It's that simple.

Also, Paul could not only use Abraham in that context, but he did use Abraham in that context. Look, your problem is simple...

Anytime I or anybody else says "good works", you hear "works of the law". They're not the same thing. Deal with it. Paul preached good works TO EVERYBODY. Here it is, IN HIS OWN WORDS:

Acts 26:19-20

"Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: BUT SHEWED UNTO THEM OF DAMASCUS, AND AT JERUSALEM, AND THROUGHOUT ALL THE COASTS OF JUDEA, AND THEN TO THE GENTILES, THAT THEY SHOULD REPENT AND TURN TO GOD, AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE."

That's pretty simple, isn't it? Paul told both Jews and Gentiles to not only repent towards God, but also to DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE. He also said the following:

Ephesians 2:10

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them."

Are you against what GOD ordained? Incidentally, this "we" included both Jew (Paul and others) and Gentiles.

I Timothy 2:9-10

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array, But (which becometh women professing godliness) WITH GOOD WORKS."

Paul said that women who profess godliness should adorn themselves WITH GOOD WORKS. Do you agree or disagree?

I Timothy 5:9-10

"Let not a widow be taken in the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, WELL REPORTED OF FOR GOOD WORKS..."

Paul wouldn't even let a widow come under the church's care unless she was WELL REPORTED OF FOR GOOD WORKS. To listen to the nonsense that you and others keep on espousing, one would think that he would have told such widows that they were "bewitched" or something. Again, GOOD WORKS are NOT synonymous with "the works of the law"...if you believe Paul, that is.

I Timothy 6:17-18

"Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, THAT THEY BE RICH IN GOOD WORKS, ready to distribute, willing to communicate..."

When Paul charged those who are rich to BE RICH IN GOOD WORKS, was he bringing them back under the law? To listen to you (and some others) speak, that's what one would have to conclude. It's ridiculous.

II Timothy 3:16-17

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS."

The entirety of scripture was given that we might be THROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS. Seriously, can't you see how off your current position is? Again, GOOD WORKS are NOT synonymous with "the works of the law"...according to Paul.

Titus 1:16

"They profess that they know God, BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, AND UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Does this need commentary? Those who profess to know God and deny Him IN WORKS are abominable, disobedient and reprobate.

Titus 2:6-7

"Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. IN ALL THINGS SHEWING THYSELF A PATTERN OF GOOD WORKS: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity..."

Was Paul placing these young men "under the law"? Again, it's ridiculous.

I Timothy 2:11-15

"For THE GRACE OF GOD that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Did you see that? THE GRACE OF GOD THAT BRINGS SALVATION teaches us some things. One of the things that it teaches us is that Jesus gave Himself for us that we would be ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. Oh, dear. Poor, misguided Paul. "Fusing" grace and works, again. Well, let's hope that he made it...by the skin of his teeth.

Titus 3:8

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, THAT THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Paul said that such things ought to be affirmed constantly and, yet, you and others rail against such constantly. Someone is in grievous error and it is you.

Titus 3:14

"And let ours also learn TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful."

More of the same. Incidentally, all of these quotes from Timothy and Titus are in Paul's PASTORAL EPISTLES. Bad, bad Paul...corrupting the whole church.

Oh, well, as usual, I fully expect that you'll ignore all of these verses and just answer with some unrelated nonsense about "the works of the law". No worries. Somebody will get it.

Good night.

i love good works too, yes we all do, but not one verse here shows how we are justified by them.

Why did Paul use abraham in galatia, when the judaizers were trying to have then be under law for justification, and sanctification?

lets get to the meat, sure, we love good works..great..good..

but show me how they justify, as per the thread, it is faith alone, not works too.

 

[Frogster]

I’m beginning to realise that whatever thread I join in GT the subject matter always ends up as essentially Law v Grace in some form or other. Is this a law on the GT forum and how do we find grace to be free from the snare of this law?

well..generally it is the people who try to fuse law and grace, they show works verses, that sure, i agree, we want to do, but they use those to try to promote the fusion of law, and grace, acting like we are sanctified and justified by works. They never get to the root issue, where clear doctrine is being taught about grace, like Galatians or romans 5-7, that shows how it was just grace, and the cross, that justify, they just keep posting works verses, but those verses don't say we are justified by works, and the context of those verses aren't about that either.

Look at titus, sure, we do goos works, but look at the emphatic part, where Paul is quite clear on the how of it all. so yes, we want to do good works, but they don't justify, yet some post works verses, yet ignoring the clear emphatic how of it all, and it, justification is not by works, but grace. Faith alone. So while the epistle to Titus says we want to do good works, it is clear that we are saved by grace, and the fusionists, ignore that part.


3; 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Hentenza]

Are you not contradicting yourself?

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

Perfection seems plausible from that passage you have just given me...All things are possible with the LORD. If The LORD perfected the faiths of all the righteous men and women of old, why can't He also do it to us?

Nah, the verb ἐπιτελέσει is in the future indicative which means that the action is being performed until the day of Christ Jesus not that the perfection will be until the day of Christ Jesus. Basically Paul expressed conviction that the God who initiated the savific process would finish it.

As I stated earlier that's not how I define saving faith, brother. To me, what you call "saving faith" is simply faith that has already been perfected by works (love), and not one that hasn't yet.

What distinguishes saving faith from nominal faith in relation to works?

With that said, I fully agree with you that He who began as good work in us, will perform it, till the day Jesus Christ returns. However, The Father can only perfect our faith if we remain in Him; that is to mean, if we do not stray from the path of righteousness.

God begins the good work (salvation) and God will carry it to completion. All that the Father has given to Jesus will not be taken out of His hand. My point is that those that have saving faith will not die in disbelief. Some might even leave for a while but never permanently. As I said in another post, I can let go of Jesus hand but He will never let go of mine.

Eph. 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. John 15:1-8

Saving faith is a working faith. Of that there can be no argument, however, the point here is to make the difference between nominal faith and saving faith. Works are a natural result of saving faith and as I posited earlier, all Christians with saving faith have works. There is much to teach from John 15 and a full exegete would take pages.

I understand what you mean, but only the LORD knows who are His. This is why Peter instructs us to make every effort to confirm our calling and election.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11

Yep but even Paul knew who was written in the book of life.

 

[Frogster]

those who fuse law and grace, never talk about the how of it all verses, that are clear, they just post the byproduct of the saved, sure, we do good works, but in their posts, they make like the byproduct, is the means of the justification, and that is where they go wrong.

3 times, in one verse, not by works..3 times, yet they ignore that, as they fight faith alone.


16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


Yet, byproduct verses will still be posted, while they knowingly omit the "means" verses, the how of it all, and that is justified by faith alone.

 

[Habakk]

well..generally it is the people who try to fuse law and grace, they show works verses, that sure, i agree, we want to do, but they use those to try to promote the fusion of law, and grace, acting like we are sanctified and justified by works. They never get to the root issue, where clear doctrine is being taught about grace, like Galatians or romans 5-7, that shows how it was just grace, and the cross, that justify, they just keep posting works verses, but those verses don't say we are justified by works, and the context of those verses aren't about that either.

Look at titus, sure, we do goos works, but look at the emphatic part, where Paul is quite clear on the how of it all. so yes, we want to do good works, but they don't justify, yet some post works verses, yet ignoring the clear emphatic how of it all, and it, justification is not by works, but grace. Faith alone. So while the epistle to Titus says we want to do good works, it is clear that we are saved by grace, and the fusionists, ignore that part.


3; 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I agree we are not saved by our works neither is it possible for us to be saved by our works. We are saved through grace (unmerited favour) through faith. However we are saved by works, we are saved by the work of the cross through atonement. We accept God’s finished work in place of our unacceptable work. After we receive salvation the work of the cross continues to sanctify our old sinful nature and as a consequence we must exhibit works of salvation. As we are always able to exercise free will we need to give ourselves to do that work.

Therefore rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if you do these things, you shall never fall. 2 Peter 1:10

 

[Lindas Place]

You already have interpreted it, since you keep repeating to me what you think it MEANS (bold part).

Linda's Place: "..and you won't offer an interpretation as to how this man went to heaven with NO Works."

I have offered you numerous passages that fully state we will all be justified by works and not faith only, but you keep using that single passage from Paul, which to be honest, does not mean what you think it means.

I guess you don't believe it means what is say's and you don't know what it means.. so I'll move on the hundreds of other scriptures that say's we are not saved by works... maybe you will believe those... but if what you are saying is that you don't believe All scriptures, then please say so... because there would be no need for me to show them to you if you don't believe all of the bible is God word.

 

[Montalban]

If you believe, you will act upon it. Faith without works is useless.

Like the priest in the front of the temple boasting about how much good he was doing and he only gave a small portion of his money.

His 'works' were hollow

 

[Rick Otto]

I’m beginning to realise that whatever thread I join in GT the subject matter always ends up as essentially Law v Grace in some form or other. Is this a law on the GT forum and how do we find grace to be free from the snare of this law?

We have to follow Jesus & bear the reproach of being "outside the camp" (the religious establishment).
Heb13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. 10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.