Is belief enough to be saved?

[B-74]

The Law of God, the Moral Law, are the Ten Commandments, is it not?

John 1:17: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Yes, but there are differences in how many of the pharisees understood the 10 and how Jesus and Paul taught them.

 

[Frogster]

In case, you didn't know Paul was speaking against the works of the Law, and not the works of God. Big difference!

By the way, I find it strange that you consider Paul's doctrine easy to understand, when it's quite in-fact the opposite. I do wonder why you solely rely on Paul? Why do you want Paul's teachings only? Is Matthew not "clear" enough for you?

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

how hard is paul to understand?


2 cor 1:13 For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and understand and I hope you will fully understand—

besides, the people that peter spoke of weren't the christians ther...wow..dude...

 

[Frogster]

Romans 3:21-26: "21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of His blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 He did it to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Romans 4:5: "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."

Romans 5:1-2: "1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."

Ephesians 2:8-10: "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Titus 3:4-7: " 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

amen, keep posting em!

 

[Lion King]

I know and agree brother, but the word law is confusing because Gods will is also found in the law. When paul says we are not justified by law or works he's right, but we are not following Jesus who justifies us by His grace if we don't obey Gods will, if we don't follow Jesus we won't be saved. And some law is no longer Gods will, but some law is. Grace and law are not easily put into a box, there are a few things we must consider concerning Grace/faith/law/Gods will. We could keep things simple if we would not use this word law as much as we do. Its confusing, and we end up arguing over things we probably all agree on.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

If we do the work of God, we fulfil all the requirements of the Law. This is the will of the Father.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:28-29

 

[B-74]

does it say the works justify?

Did i say ever that it did? You seem stuck on that one thing as if that's all there is to the Gospel. I said if we want to be justified by faith then we must follow Christ, which means we must submit to and obey Gods will. That is what you don't teach bro, that's why i say you're not teaching the whole Gospel. We cant take Christs name in vain, we must follow Him and obey Gods will or our faith is dead and cannot save us.

 

[Frogster]

In case, you didn't know Paul was speaking against the works of the Law, and not the works of God. Big difference!

By the way, I find it strange that you consider Paul's doctrine easy to understand, when it's quite in-fact the opposite. I do wonder why you solely rely on Paul? Why do you want Paul's teachings only? Is Matthew not "clear" enough for you?

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

as far as paul or the gospels, jesus chose paul to elabroate on the how of it all, hence the part u can't rebutt, rom 5-6..

yes, we don't want to kill though, or worship little statues..

lets talk red meat..yes?

what set free from sin, the law or the cross?

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Yes, but there are differences in how many of the pharisees understood the 10 and how Jesus and Paul taught them.

Jesus said, "17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-20

What Law or the Prophets was He referring to? And how can our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?

 

[B-74]

John 1:17: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Jesus brought grace and truth. One without the other is not the Gospel

The pharisees didn't understand Gods law, nor did they ever keep it. They were hypocrites who only made it "appear" as if they did.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

amen, keep posting em!

I will.

 

[Frogster]

Jesus said, "17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:17-20

What Law or the Prophets was He referring to? And how can our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?

abraham was just, before the law by 430 years.. gal 3;17 love it...God bless.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

abraham was just, before the law by 430 years..

Very impressive.

 

[Frogster]

John 1:17: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

Jesus brought grace and truth. One without the other is not the Gospel

The pharisees didn't understand Gods law, nor did they ever keep it. They were hypocrites who only made it "appear" as if they did.

stretch on 1;17. it was a clear juxtaposition to law and grace there. why wouldn't the truth be under moses?

 

[Frogster]

Very impressive.

thanks, u too...

 

[B-74]

abraham was just, before the law by 430 years.. gal 3;17 love it...god bless.

Abe obeyed Gods will, whatever God said Abraham did. Again Jesus brought Grace and truth. Can we teach the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.





Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Lu 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

Lu 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

[God's Word]

abraham was just, before the law by 430 years..

He most certainly was and his justification was BY WORKS and not by faith alone.

James 2:21-24

"Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS was faith made perfect? AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY."

There it is, AGAIN, folks. Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT by faith only. In fact, the scripture which says that Abraham BELIEVED GOD was not fulfilled until his faith WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS. Were these works "the works of the law"? Nah, couldn't have been...the law came 430 years LATER.

Well, James said "seest thou how" and "ye see then how", but, alas, some will still shut their eyes to it. And so it goes...

Get ready for some more "magic wand", totally unrelated verses on "the works of the law". Trust me, they're coming...

Time to play with my children.

 

[Lindas Place]

Jesus Christ says otherwise...


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

God’s word does not end there… read on, Jesus did something that the scoffers will never believe… He died for our sins...

Acts 13:40-42
40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.”

Romans 4:4-8
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

 

[Frogster]

He most certainly was and his justification was BY WORKS and not by faith alone.

James 2:21-24

"Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS was faith made perfect? AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY."

There it is, AGAIN, folks. Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT by faith only. In fact, the scripture which says that Abraham BELIEVED GOD was not fulfilled until his faith WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS. Were these works "the works of the law"? Nah, couldn't have been...the law came 430 years LATER.

Well, James said "seest thou how" and "ye see then how", but, alas, some will still shut their eyes to it. And so it goes...

Get ready for some more "magic wand", totally unrelated verses on "the works of the law". Trust me, they're coming...

Time to play with my children.

then show me in the genesis account, where it says he was just by works, not blessed, but justified..as per the james account.

then you have to refute romans 4..good luck..

 

[Lion King]

abraham was just, before the law by 430 years.. gal 3;17 love it...God bless.

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

Just saying.

 

[Frogster]

He most certainly was and his justification was BY WORKS and not by faith alone.

James 2:21-24

"Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS was faith made perfect? AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY."

There it is, AGAIN, folks. Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT by faith only. In fact, the scripture which says that Abraham BELIEVED GOD was not fulfilled until his faith WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS. Were these works "the works of the law"? Nah, couldn't have been...the law came 430 years LATER.

Well, James said "seest thou how" and "ye see then how", but, alas, some will still shut their eyes to it. And so it goes...

Get ready for some more "magic wand", totally unrelated verses on "the works of the law". Trust me, they're coming...

Time to play with my children.

besides, when he beleived it was imputed. paul could not use Abe, and that gospel, and the rest of the context, if u r right.


gal 3;8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

 

[B-74]

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;