Is belief enough to be saved?

[Frogster]

Excellent verse in 1 Timothy 1:8-11. Very fitting for thread.

yeah, that was where paul was telling tim, get the law boys outta the church, the law was not for the just, but for the unsaved, that was the proper usage of law.

 

[Frogster]

It might be that our works will be judged. In fact, I am led to believe that they will be. However, this doesn't mean that they affect our salvation.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Excellent verse in 1 Timothy 1:8-11. Very fitting for thread.

I agree. I also mentioned this Bible passage in my post here, a page or so back in this thread.

 

[B-74]

Excellent verse in 1 Timothy 1:8-11. Very fitting for thread.

There is one part of that scripture that stands out. We see that works of the flesh are contrary to sound doctrine. Therefor we should flee from them and abstain from them. God is a jealous God also, we should not grieve His Spirit by doing works of the flesh

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[God's Word]

but when it is all said and done, the only we were were made holy, is to be taken out of unholy adam, and put into holy Jesus romans 5, all by his resurrection, that is the heart of romans 6, and in no way, can you put works in the resurrection power bro..

unless u can, i would like to hear it.

see what you do, is strain at extraneous text, text that indicates something, sure, who wants to steal? but the answer in the clear doctrine of rom 6. THE HOW of it all, was the cross and resurrection, and only that, he who died is free from sin 6;7, and that had nothing to do with any works, of any kind, by anyone.

prove me worng, using clear teaching, on the central issue, the cross.

no, we don't want to steal..duh....

can we get past that now? no, we don't want to steal...no...

Alas.

You're up to your old tricks.

I REPEATEDLY, PLAINLY state the differences between the works of the law and the good works that Christians are called unto and I REPEATEDLY, PLAINLY state that the works of the law HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH our regeneration or born again experience and you, in turn, can only REPEATEDLY APPLY totally different meanings to my words, thereby only arguing WITH YOURSELF.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Consider our conversation finished.

 

[Frogster]

Galatians 2:19-20: "19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:1-9: "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

Galatians 3:19-25: "19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

1 Timothy 1:8-11: "8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust."

Love it!

Paul wanted them to continue in faith, if they got under law, they would continue under law, they would not be circumcised for just one day, they would now be living under law all the time, indeed sanctifiaction by law was just as much a galatians issue, as justification was.

live by faith, all the time, or live by law all the time. Paul said he now LIVES by faith..every day

juxtaposition of faith life, vs law life. they are contrary..Practice faith, or practice law.


” 3;11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

 

[Frogster]

Alas.

You're up to your old tricks.

I REPEATEDLY, PLAINLY state the differences between the works of the law and the good works that Christians are called unto and I REPEATEDLY, PLAINLY state that the works of the law HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH our regeneration or born again experience and you, in turn, can only REPEATEDLY APPLY totally different meanings to my words, thereby only arguing WITH YOURSELF.

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Consider our conversation finished.

we know we do good works, but you're avoiding the issue, they don't sanctify or justify..

see ya...

 

[B-74]

There is one part of that scripture that stands out. We see that works of the flesh are contrary to sound doctrine. Therefor we should flee from them and abstain from them. God is a jealous God also, we should not grieve His Spirit by doing works of the flesh

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works .

This thread does move to fast, bump. I think this is important.

 

[God's Word]

we know we do good works, but you're avoiding the issue, they don't sanctify or justify..

see ya...

Your quarrel, as I've documented many times in the past, is with the likes of Paul, Peter, James and God Himself. Perhaps, you'll never recognize as much, but others hopefully will.

 

[someguy14]

The righteous are righteous by God alone. Led by The Spirit of God and obedient unto the will of God by the grace of God and in full agreeance with God, sealed with The Spirit of promise. All glory to God!

 

[Lion King]

What are works of the law? Circumcision or the law that defines Gods will? I would say if we are justified by works, then we are justified by doing all of Gods will. If that is, we are justified by any works at all. Surely no one can boast in anything, but there is no distinction between doing one good work and another, Gods will is Gods will, whether it be charity or abstinence. Both are love, love for God and man. But which commandment is the greatest? God commanded we love Him and our neighbor, so i would say all law hangs on the greatest commandment first, and the second greatest commandment last. IMO.

Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is what I classify as works of Law, brother:

-circumcision.
-keeping the Sabbath.
-eating "clean" meats only.

etc

..which are clearly different from the works of God.

 

[someguy14]

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Excellent verse also.
Faith and works go hand in hand.

 

[B-74]

Excellent verse also.
Faith and works go hand in hand.

Any thing good is a good work. Whether it be charity or abstinence from evil works of the flesh. Thanks bro.

 

[Lion King]

dude..was revelation teaching about the how of it all?

james meant it literally?

then scripture does not jive, because you can't post 1 verse from all of paul, where he was laying down doctrine, to prove your point, the best u can do is to strain at a verse that may indicate something, sure, we do good works, evil people do bad works, duh..but you got no red meat of any substance, to fuse works santification, or justification by works, when in fact, all paul wrote goes against this.

Give us clear doctrine from Paul...and do it contextually..

no, I did not steal a car today, but that is not why i was put into christ, romans 5-6.

In case, you didn't know Paul was speaking against the works of the Law, and not the works of God. Big difference!

By the way, I find it strange that you consider Paul's doctrine easy to understand, when it's quite in-fact the opposite. I do wonder why you solely rely on Paul? Why do you want Paul's teachings only? Is Matthew not "clear" enough for you?

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Love it!

Paul wanted them to continue in faith, if they got under law, they would continue under law, they would not be circumcised for just one day, they would now be living under law all the time, indeed sanctifiaction by law was just as much a galatians issue, as justification was.

live by faith, all the time, or live by law all the time. Paul said he now LIVES by faith..every day

juxtaposition of faith life, vs law life. they are contrary..Practice faith, or practice law.

” 3;11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

Romans 3:21-26: "21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through the shedding of His blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 He did it to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Romans 4:5: "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."

Romans 5:1-2: "1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."

Ephesians 2:8-10: "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Titus 3:4-7: " 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

 

[B-74]

This is what I classify as works of Law, brother:

-circumcision.
-keeping the Sabbath.
-eating "clean" meats only.

etc

..which are clearly different from the works of God.

I know and agree brother, but the word law is confusing because Gods will is also found in the law. When paul says we are not justified by law or works he's right, but we are not following Jesus who justifies us by His grace if we don't obey Gods will, if we don't follow Jesus we won't be saved. And some law is no longer Gods will, but some law is. Grace and law are not easily put into a box, there are a few things we must consider concerning Grace/faith/law/Gods will. We could keep things simple if we would not use this word law as much as we do. Its confusing, and we end up arguing over things we probably all agree on.

Mt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

 

[Lion King]

It might be that our works will be judged. In fact, I am led to believe that they will be. However, this doesn't mean that they affect our salvation.

Jesus Christ says otherwise...


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

 

[B-74]

In case, you didn't know Paul was speaking against the works of the Law, and not the works of God. Big difference!

By the way, I find it strange that you consider Paul's doctrine easy to understand, when it's quite in-fact the opposite. I do wonder why you solely rely on Paul? Why do you want Paul's teachings only? Is Matthew not "clear" enough for you?

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[Whisper of Hope]

The Law of God, the Moral Law, are the Ten Commandments, is it not?

John 1:17: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

 

[Frogster]

This thread does move to fast, bump. I think this is important.

does it say the works justify?