Is being Wiccan moral?

[ajna]

God condemned the worship of gods, which were nothing more than chiseled wood and stone, fashioned as it pleased man to create. You cannot have God saying there is no other, and other. It is a logical impossibility. A clear contradiction.

I never once said there were "other gods". I said that you cannot limit God by number. In the Bible God is one and the trinity at the same time. This is the same concept. Once again I must reiterate (sp?) that God is not limitable to your standards of number, mass, or gender. God is I AM, not I am only...

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

First, I'd need to see the basis of this argument. By this reasoning anyone could hold up a paper cup and say this is a worshipable entity, a manifestation of God. In fact, I had someone from India do and say precisely that.

Moreover, the trinity isn't the same. It's three distinct personalities int eh Godhead which God Himself revealed.

Secondly, what are you going to do with those verses, then? Jesus says He is the only way, and you're saying any way but Him equals Him only? This doesn't make any logical sense. I don't think that was the spirit of the exiles, do you? What is the First Commandment, and how do you fit this into your perspective?

 

[ajna]

First, I'd need to see the basis of this argument. By this reasoning anyone could hold up a paper cup and say this is a worshipable entity, a manifestation of God. In fact, I had someone from India do and say precisely that.

Moreover, the trinity isn't the same. It's three distinct personalities int eh Godhead which God Himself revealed.

Secondly, what are you going to do with those verses, then? Jesus says He is the only way, and you're saying any way but Him equals Him only? This doesn't make any logical sense. I don't think that was the spirit of the exiles, do you? What is the First Commandment, and how do you fit this into your perspective?

I, unfortunately, cannot respond to any of this. I knew that if I tried to help you see the errors of your circular reasoning that I would be pulled down as well.
I have said what I have said in the most basic way I can say it and if I try anymore it will only get more complex. I hope you at least find forgiveness in your heart for those you condemn.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Feel free to enlighten me. Don't worry about things getting complex. God's wisdom, knowledge, and written word are up to the challenge. I trust He'll have an answer for you.

I don't condemn anyone-that isn't my job, and I have no desire to do it, either. You can't love anyone without giving them the truth about God and the future. There's healing in the truth. And that comes from the throneroom of Heaven as well. If you think about it, there's nothing on this earth that can satisfy, even though people try to find happiness in filling up with things that are mere trinkets. We all know what a waste that is. It's all vain, isn't it? God is the only thing worth seeking. Frankly, I'd rather walk with Him and see what He has to say.

Blessings to you.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

P.S. What I do see is a lot of condemning of Christians.

 

[dlamberth]

Secondly, what are you going to do with those verses, then? Jesus says He is the only way,

I’m going to take that verses literally and crawl into the skin of Jesus and while one with Christ, experience that point of focus that Jesus prayed to and worshipped, as Jesus Himself experienced it. Than I’m going to take that experience, as experienced through Jesus and compare it to the experiences of the God Head as known and experienced within other spiritual traditions. This is where I believe one finds that we worship and pray to the same God.



..

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So what is the meaning of the first commandment, then?

 

[dlamberth]

So what is the meaning of the first commandment, then?

There are mulitple answers..Don't make gods of tv's movie stars, cars, george bush, money, ect, ect.

If that whom Jesus worshipped and prayed to is the same as that whom others of others spiritual traditions worshipped and prayed to, including the pre-Jews whom the 10 commandment was handed to, than it's the same God...and no problem with the 1st Commandment.



...

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee...

SquareC posted:

Well said, sss!

Thank you! How was your Samhain? Good, I hope! (I like your signature!)

Whitehorse posted:

The problem is, you're appealing to a sect, and to your sages, but not to God Himself...It is God's view and understanding that are the concern, not that of any sages...Then I'd get to know scripture very, very well, and understand the heart of God, not those of your sages.

Please do not be so cavalier as to dismiss my faith as a mere "sect" simply because I do not share your faith. We rely on our Sages to faithfully interpret & understand the words of God Himself, as He has communicated His words to us in the Torah & the rest of the Tanakh; we believe that our Sages are thereby exercising the authority that the Torah has specifically delegated to them. You can respect the beliefs of others even if you do not share them.

As to your interpretation of Isaiah 42:6-8...

So here we have a promise that God will make a covenant with the Gentiles.

We discern no such promise here. We believe that God's covenant with non-Jews was made with Noah & his sons as I mentioned in my previous post; see http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm . I don't see how these verses from Isaiah contradict what we believe about the 7 precepts God gave to Noah & his sons.

Are you implying that God has no enemies?

No, of course not. But since only God knows what is in our hearts, minds & souls, such as we ought not to dare to presume to believe that we cab read God's mind (so to speak) & know what is written in His account books (so to speak). To me, this is a shocking combination of pride, arrogance, and vanity that any God-fearing person should shy away from.

since you used scripture: if we all have the same father, we will all be judged by the same and are subject to the same rules, aren't we?

As I noted in my previous post, we believe that whereas there are 613 precepts in the Torah which are binding on all Jews, there are only 7 which are binding on non-Jews.

What makes a person an enemy of God is whther or not s/he obeys God and submits to His authority and will.

Correct, but I will leave it up to God to decide who His enemies are & who is a rebel against His will.

Then I'd get to know scripture very, very well, and understand the heart of God, not those of your sages.

I study the scriptures every day. When I want to know what this or that word/verse/chapter means, I rely on the teachings of our Sages (see above) & not what you might say.

People get angry at Christians because Christians submit to God's will while others want to make their own rules.

1) I certainly am not angry at all "Christians"!

2) As a[n orthodox] Jew, I certainly do not make up my own rules! My very existence as a Jew is based on obeying God's rules (see Deuteronomy 32:46-47).

...seek God's will as it is revealed in His full scriptures, OT and NT.

We believe that "His full scriptures" consist of the 39 books of the Tanakh.

Blessings to you.

Thank you! I need all the help I can get!

"...Jehovah?"

While we believe that the knowledge of the correct pronunciation of the 4-Letter Name of God has been temporarily lost, transliterating it as "Jehovah" is certainly wrong.

Moreover, the trinity isn't the same. It's three distinct personalities int eh Godhead which God Himself revealed.

See http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1119431&highlight=trinity#post1119431 for our view.

As a[n orthodox] Jew, I acknowledge that a Wiccan's beliefs have as much meaning for him/her as my Jewish beliefs have for me & as Whitehorse's do for him/her. We wil, I suppose, have to (amicably, I hope) most of our disagreements under "Agree-to-disagree" & leave it at that.

Be well!

ssv

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

It is a largely accepted precept of paganism that all gods are one god Whitehorse. We believe that in the end you and I are both connecting with the One Creator.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Right, but I'm pointing out the logical impossibility of this belief.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Okay... I'm not seeing anything on earth that can prove or disprove the logical impossiblities of dieties...

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Hi all!

Whitehorse posted:



Please do not be so cavalier as to dismiss my faith as a mere "sect" simply because I do not share your faith. We rely on our Sages to faithfully interpret & understand the words of God Himself, as He has communicated His words to us in the Torah & the rest of the Tanakh; we believe that our Sages are thereby exercising the authority that the Torah has specifically delegated to them. You can respect the beliefs of others even if you do not share them.

As to your interpretation of Isaiah 42:6-8...



We discern no such promise here. We believe that God's covenant with non-Jews was made with Noah & his sons as I mentioned in my previous post; see http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm . I don't see how these verses from Isaiah contradict what we believe about the 7 precepts God gave to Noah & his sons.

Because this was actually a prophecy about Christ. So you will notice now that the Gentiles have Yahweh. This did not come about through Noah. It came about through Jesus Christ. The curtain in the temple was rent at Jesus's death. What does this mean?

No, of course not. But since only God knows what is in our hearts, minds & souls, such as we ought not to dare to presume to believe that we cab read God's mind (so to speak) & know what is written in His account books (so to speak). To me, this is a shocking combination of pride, arrogance, and vanity that any God-fearing person should shy away from.



As I noted in my previous post, we believe that whereas there are 613 precepts in the Torah which are binding on all Jews, there are only 7 which are binding on non-Jews.

It isn't vanity to express God's written word. It's our duty! And I think it's arrogant to go to men rather than the Holy Spirit. Moreover, I think it is wrong to preach that what is offensive to God is okay because it is a human decision! Pleas point out to me where this is written! None of us have that kind of authority! Look at what the nation of Israel suffered because of idolotry. Is it loving to approve of someone to offending God the same way and incurring God's wrath? They may like it now, but in the end, they'll regret it.

I study the scriptures every day. When I want to know what this or that word/verse/chapter means, I rely on the teachings of our Sages (see above) & not what you might say.



1) I certainly am not angry at all "Christians"!

2) As a[n orthodox] Jew, I certainly do not make up my own rules! My very existence as a Jew is based on obeying God's rules (see Deuteronomy 32:46-47).



We believe that "His full scriptures" consist of the 39 books of the Tanakh.



Thank you! I need all the help I can get!

"...Jehovah?"

While we believe that the knowledge of the correct pronunciation of the 4-Letter Name of God has been temporarily lost, transliterating it as "Jehovah" is certainly wrong.



See http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1119431&highlight=trinity#post1119431 for our view.

As a[n orthodox] Jew, I acknowledge that a Wiccan's beliefs have as much meaning for him/her as my Jewish beliefs have for me & as Whitehorse's do for him/her. We wil, I suppose, have to (amicably, I hope) most of our disagreements under "Agree-to-disagree" & leave it at that.

Be well!

ssv

Of course I do what God has called me to do. Just to point out, I don't condemn those who don't believe like I do. There but for the grace of God go I. But I think everyone deserves to know the truth when they're making these decisions. It may be pleasant to find agreement, but feelings change with the winds of circumstance-they're deceptive. Forever is an awfully long time to feel regret and pain. What kind of Christian would I be to know the truth and allow others to walk off into a spiritual snare without any attempt to show them the truth?

 

[dlamberth]

What kind of Christian would I be to know the truth and allow others to walk off into a spiritual snare without any attempt to show them the truth?

Sorry, every time I come across this statement I just don't know how to deal with it. Please understand, I'm focusing upon the statement, not who wrote it.

I hear this statement, what comes across to me is arrogance and self-righteousness of the highest kind. When after hearing or reading that statement, I immediately go into a place where I’m saying to myself, “that person doesn’t have a clue of where I’m at with my Beloved, not a clue, yet they are claiming higher Truth”.

After reaching that inner place of astonishment, anything that is said or I read afterwards comes across to me with a huge amount of skepticism or I honestly kind of shut myself down to anything else said after that.

..

 

[dlamberth]

Right, but I'm pointing out the logical impossibility of this belief.

Somehow, Love, which is the central point of focus of lovers for their beloved, just plain flunks any test of logic. It's just as true for the lovers of God, regardless of their spiritual tradition.

..

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Sorry, every time I come across this statement I just don't know how to deal with it. Please understand, I'm focusing upon the statement, not who wrote it.

I hear this statement, what comes across to me is arrogance and self-righteousness of the highest kind. When after hearing or reading that statement, I immediately go into a place where I’m saying to myself, “that person doesn’t have a clue of where I’m at with my Beloved, not a clue, yet they are claiming higher Truth”.

After reaching that inner place of astonishment, anything that is said or I read afterwards comes across to me with a huge amount of skepticism or I honestly kind of shut myself down to anything else said after that.

..

I think the arrogance comes from not understanding that we do not have a right to invent our own realities. I think there's arrogance in coming into a Christian community and saying Christian beliefs are arrogant, bigotted, ridiculous-this is arrogant. Telling God to take a back seat to personal beliefs, this is arrogant. To be more concerned with whether someone else is personally right rather than whether an ideology is going to cause harm, that is self-serving to the core, and loaded to the gills with envy as well. That's about pride, not truth.

This is not love. Christianity is about love. Not a reflection any particular person, but on the concept of going to places where people think differently and telling them to get into their place. That I have a problem with. Christian bashing, I have a problem with. If it's uncomfortable, why would anyone want to hang out with people who think the things that are so objectionable. One can only presume it's to cause aggravation.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Or to try to make a connection so that the people of both religions wouldn't have to feel so uncomfortable around eachother. Why do you assume the worst of everyone's motives but your own?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Whitehorse posted:

Because this was actually a prophecy about Christ.

Sez who? We don't believe that it is!

The curtain in the temple was rent at Jesus's death.

Sez who? We don't believe that it did; none of our sources mention that such an event ever ocurred!

It isn't vanity to express God's written word. It's our duty!...What kind of Christian would I be to know the truth and allow others to walk off into a spiritual snare without any attempt to show them the truth?

Correct. But it expressing one's views about God's written word is best done tactfully, thoughtfully & diplomatically. Stephen Crane wrote "The livid lighnings flashed in the clouds":

The livid lightnings flashed in the clouds;
The leaden thunders crashed.
A worshipper raised his arm.
"Hearken! Hearken! The voice of God!"

"Not so," said a man.
"The voice of God whispers in the heart
So softly
That the soul pauses,
Making no noise,
And strives for these melodies,
Distant, sighing, like faintest breath,
And all the being is still to hear."

See I Kings 19. In the end, God was not in the wind, the earthquake or the fire. He was in the still, small, voice.

Whitehorse, I don't doubt your sincerity but, as per what I've just said, I think that you'll serve your own cause better by being less strident & shrill.

And I think it's arrogant to go to men rather than the Holy Spirit.

How can I make this clearer? For us, our Sages are the ones who are authorized to interpret what God wants from us, as per what He has said in the scriptures. We are not "going" to mere "men", but learning from those whom God Himself has authorized (see Deuteronomy 17:8-11, see Nehemiah 8:7-8) to interpret His words!

Look at what the nation of Israel suffered because of idolotry. Is it loving to approve of someone to offending God the same way and incurring God's wrath?

There's a world of difference between today's Wiccans & the ancient Canaanites, with their foul & loathsome rites! Have you ever known a Wiccan to burn a child to Molech? Paganism does not necessarily equal idolatry!

Be well!

ssv

 

[SquareC]

Thank you! How was your Samhain? Good, I hope! (I like your signature!)

You're welcome! Samhain was beautiful, a glorious night of prayer and remembrance. Thank you!