Is being Wiccan moral?

[SquareC]

Well said, sss!

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Hi all!
Judaism most definitely does NOT believe that it's "our way or the highway to hell" (i.e. We don't believe that all non-Jews will go to hell). Our Sages say that, "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come." We believe that whereas there are 613 precepts/commandments in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy; our most basic scripture) that are incumbent/binding on Jews, there are only 7 that are binding on non-Jews. [/i]

The problem is, you're appealing to a sect, and to your sages, but not to God Himself. Take a look at this verse:

Isaiah 42:6-8

42:6I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

42:7To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

So here we have a promise that God will make a covenant with the Gentiles. Here we see that these Gentiles are worshipping other gods, and God refers to this as blindness. He says that He will not yield His glory to another. Makes, sense, right? That's why it is so important to really grasp principle behind this. God is offended by people robbing Him of His glory, Jew or Gentile. So that would firmly disprove this:

Thus, in our view & understanding, if a non-Jew wants to pray to Odin/Zeus/etc., he/she is not doing anything wrong.

It is God's view and understanding that are the concern, not that of any sages. For they too will answer to Him.

"Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us all?" [Malachi 2:10]

Are you implying that God has no enemies? But I will say this, since you used scripture: if we all have the same father, we will all be judged by the same and are subject to the same rules, aren't we? What makes a person an enemy of God is whther or not s/he obeys God and submits to His authority and will. Not popular concepts with men who want to be the creator. We don't have that right.

What Christians do us up to them. Keep in mind that "Ignorance and intolerance are the Devil's footmen."

Then I'd get to know scripture very, very well, and understand the heart of God, not those of your sages. For they too are men who will be brought into account and be judged by God for their teachings.

As a fairly conservative Republican, I'm afraid I don't have the slightest idea as to what you're talking about here!

Be that as it may in other areas of your philosophy, for we have not discussed these yet, this part at least is inconsistent.

And the Devil take the rest? Is anyone who does not believe as you do necessarily not of God's people?

Our 18th century Sage, Rabbi Menachem Mendl of Kotzk says: "Just as we accept that our neighbors face does not resemble ours, so too must we accept that his views do not resemble ours."

Be well!

ssv

Here is the key that is so neccessary to understand: People get angry at Christians because Christians submit to God's will while others want to make their own rules. It's not what we teach that people disagree with, it's the nonChristian's desire to usurp God's authority so they can be gods unto themselves. Make their own rules. Choose gods, which actually puts them in authority over those gods. But God doesn't put up with that. We are not gods. God is God, we are not. As Christians, we're saying it isn't about man. It is about God. Forsake the thoughts of men and turn to the thoughts of God Himself. Take no man's word for anything-but seek God's will as it is revealed in His full scriptures, OT and NT.

Blessings to you.
Whitehorse

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

People get angry at christians because they are hypocrites when they say that their god is all loving inhailing and that he will punish all who do not obey him exhailing.

 

[Havoc]

Whitehorse:

So you begin by telling him that he doesn't know his own God, and end by telling the whole world what we think and why we don't like Christians. Awfully presumptuous of you. Hardly surprising though.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So am I wrong? AAnd anyway, what you call presumptuous is based on this ideology that men have a right to choose their creator. You have never once answered to this although it has been presented many times. Moreover, the scripture I used whas Isaiah, which and Jew must claim as his/her own. Otherwise it isn't Judaism.

 

[SquareC]

So am I wrong? AAnd anyway, what you call presumptuous is based on this ideology that men have a right to choose their creator. You have never once answered to this although it has been presented many times. Moreover, the scripture I used whas Isaiah, which and Jew must claim as his/her own. Otherwise it isn't Judaism.

I did not choose my creator. I choose the fashion in which I worship that creator. I choose the belief that fills me with love and joy in creation. Of course, by your logic, the only people with the right to choose are those choosing Christianity. Everyone else must be wrong, because they don't agree with you. That seems extremely presumptuous to me.

 

[ajna]

So am I wrong? AAnd anyway, what you call presumptuous is based on this ideology that men have a right to choose their creator. You have never once answered to this although it has been presented many times. Moreover, the scripture I used whas Isaiah, which and Jew must claim as his/her own. Otherwise it isn't Judaism.

How can people choose their creator if there is only one?

 

[Havoc]

So am I wrong? AAnd anyway, what you call presumptuous is based on this ideology that men have a right to choose their creator. You have never once answered to this although it has been presented many times. Moreover, the scripture I used whas Isaiah, which and Jew must claim as his/her own. Otherwise it isn't Judaism.

I have answered the question, many times. You just don't seem to like the answer so you keep saying I havn't answered it.

Each of us that have a belief in the Divine choose how we will worship, or not worship the Divine.

The presumption you have is that it must conform to your perception of the Divine or it is wrong. Further you presume to know what each of us thinks and how we feel about these things. You further presume to know what I believe about "creation" and that I consider it a right to choose a creator. In that you most certainly are wrong. You further presume that you are in sole possession of absolute truth. There is no reason for anyone to believe you are right about that. You presume to instruct a Jew on the matter of Judaism.

That is why I consider you somewhat presumptuous.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I did not choose my creator. I choose the fashion in which I worship that creator. I choose the belief that fills me with love and joy in creation. Of course, by your logic, the only people with the right to choose are those choosing Christianity. Everyone else must be wrong, because they don't agree with you. That seems extremely presumptuous to me.

Okay! Now we're getting somewhere. Do you worship Jehovah?

 

[SquareC]

Okay! Now we're getting somewhere. Do you worship Jehovah?

I do not. I am Wiccan, and have been for 17 years. I worship the Lady and Lord.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I have answered the question, many times. You just don't seem to like the answer so you keep saying I havn't answered it.

Each of us that have a belief in the Divine choose how we will worship, or not worship the Divine.

So, you're worshipping a differnt God. There is no vague divine. Either one GOd is God, or this isn't so. We're worshipping differnt entities. THis is choosing a creator. Jehovah says these are no gods at all, that He alone is God. SO you cannot have these ideas together-either He is, or He is not, and you're saying He is not. Because if you said He was, then why don't you believe what He says about Himself?

The presumption you have is that it must conform to your perception of the Divine or it is wrong. Further you presume to know what each of us thinks and how we feel about these things. You further presume to know what I believe about "creation" and that I consider it a right to choose a creator. In that you most certainly are wrong. You further presume that you are in sole possession of absolute truth. There is no reason for anyone to believe you are right about that. You presume to instruct a Jew on the matter of Judaism.

I'm not presuming anything about what she things-she revealed it already. And I'm using her own scriptures. THere's no presumption here. Besides, your opinion of what is presumptuous is in denying your perceived right to make the rules when I'm appealing entirely to the God who created you. I find you terribly presumptuous. THe most you can say is that humans are offended, and that's whay I'm presumptuous. The rest I've disproven already. I'm saying that you're presumptuous for offending God.
Someone must not like what I'm saying, because I'm getting some terrible interfereance here which is the reason for all these typos. It must be hitting home with someone.

 

[ajna]

Okay now I am getting frustrated because no one is listening to me. There is one and many diety(s). Why can't you comprehend that you are worshipping the same creator(s).
I have put it this way before...
One person is in the United States and the other person is in Europe. One thinks it is one time and the other thinks it is another. The fact is, it is both times because it is the same moment. Perhaps you won't understand that either...
Perhaps just serving and worshipping the higher being isn't enough for you you have to beat eachother up over opinions. And that is all this is, opinion. How you will worship is your opinion. Can't you see that fighting does not make Allah, Addonai, Jehova, The Lord/Lady, etc. happy.
The Bible says that God is called by many names. Neo-wicca claims The Lord and Lady can be found in nature, in existance. God calls himself the great I Am. If God Is, and the Lord and Lady Are as well can it not be assumed that the same loving deity(s) are, indeed, the same?
Whitehorse said that "THis is choosing a creator. Jehovah says these are no gods at all, that He alone is God." I pose the question that is He alone is God, why do you keep coming up with these imaginary rivals for Him? If you believe there are no other gods why do you claim that this person is worshipping another god? He is one and all, She is one and all, this whole debate is over what genetalia should be deemed worthy of God...
This is silly. Stop the petty bickering online and go outside and revel in the wonder of what has been created for you.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

It's impossible for everyone to be wirshipping one creator, especially those that worship all these different dieties. If one person worships fifteen dieties, or many more if you're talking about India, and Jehovah says He alone is God, there is a contradiction here. If Jesus says no one comes to the Father except through Him, He isn't going to change His mind about that. It's contradictory-a logical impossibility.

Anyway, our first priority shouldn't be to affirm each other in dangerous errors. Genuine, Christlike love will preserve and protect the individual, not cater to his/her emotions while s/he does self-destructive things by incurring God's displeasure.

But I do appreciate your desire for peace. I love peace, too. But right now it's the eternal peace that has to be the focus, and that means we don't always agree here.

 

[Havoc]

I'm listening ajna.

Don't expect Whitehorse to though. It should be clear by now to anyone reading his posts that he's not interested in debate or discussion. He's only interested in telling people how wrong they are and trying to get them to admit that he has absolute truth.

It's rather sad really.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

There ya go, Havoc! If you don't have any answers for the questions presented, make a sweeping statement against me in hopes no one will continue the debate and you won't have to answer the questions.

Anyway, where were we. Oh, yes-we were awaiting this startling evidence that proves that ritual abuse is a nonentity.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Again, your focus is on who has the truth. Human beings are the glass ceiling of postmodernism.

In order to find the truth, one has to determine the source of truth. Obviously a temporal human cannot be the source of wisdom on the eternal, and I think that's where you're having a problem finding the truth. You want to choose it. But if you're honest, you'll recognize we do not have this power. I'm sorry if it bothers you that there is truth and you chose something different because what was true was displeasing to you.

But to find truth, the question must remain, "What is the truth?" Not, "Can I have my cake and eat it too, choosing what I want to be truth and somehow by my choice make it so?"

For the many times you've tried to make me appear arrogant, I must remind you that submission to God and faithfulness to the Creator is not arrogance. Trying to usurp authority over God to put Him in submission to the human will, on the other hand-this may rightfully be deemed so.

And this is the question that plagues us. How can a new religion have truth about things eternal? How can man be the judge of the Divine? By choosing a diety or five or ten, one puts himself in authority over the deity by becoming the choosing sovereign. No one chooses Christianity because it suits them, but rather they receive it because God has revealed to them that it is true.

But if you still require evidence that God, the true sovereign, gives to those who seek Him, I have a feeling God will grant you your wish for the sake of His name. But that would be His choice, if He desires to do this. If you really want eveidence, why don't you ask Him if it is true?

 

[ajna]

It's impossible for everyone to be wirshipping one creator, especially those that worship all these different dieties. If one person worships fifteen dieties, or many more if you're talking about India, and Jehovah says He alone is God, there is a contradiction here. If Jesus says no one comes to the Father except through Him, He isn't going to change His mind about that. It's contradictory-a logical impossibility.

Anyway, our first priority shouldn't be to affirm each other in dangerous errors. Genuine, Christlike love will preserve and protect the individual, not cater to his/her emotions while s/he does self-destructive things by incurring God's displeasure.

But I do appreciate your desire for peace. I love peace, too. But right now it's the eternal peace that has to be the focus, and that means we don't always agree here.

But don't you think that maybe, just maybe, number is a mortal thing. That God is one and many at the same time and that we limit God by assigning God with a gender and a number?

 

[dlamberth]

So, you're worshipping a differnt God. There is no vague divine. Either one GOd is God, or this isn't so. We're worshipping differnt entities. THis is choosing a creator. Jehovah says these are no gods at all, that He alone is God. SO you cannot have these ideas together-either He is, or He is not, and you're saying He is not. Because if you said He was, then why don't you believe what He says about Himself?

If you don't mind, I'm going to weigh in on this discussion because where someone say's we are worshipping different entities, I'd say that perhaps we are worshipping the same entity, but through a different venue’s

Here's the first part of why. The reason why "I" don't worship Jesus is because when I put myself into Jesus and worship and pray to that whom Jesus worshipped and prayed to, I find a point of focus that is the absolute Oneness of All. That's where I direct my prayer towards. When I place myself into the shoes of Abraham and Mohammed, and worship and pray to that whom they to, I find the same focus on the same absolute Oneness of All that Jesus worshipped and prayed to. So to me this clearly shows, by direct experience, that the same entity is worshipped and prayed to via different venue’s.

Here's the second part of why. There is no way that I can separate my Beloved from life and it’s very own Creation. To me, the ONLY Holy Text directly written by the very hand of God can be found ONLY with in my Beloved’s Creation. People who follow the Wicca way read this Holy Text found in Creation. If they were to follow the it to the point of focus, one would find they were praying to and worshipping the same entity as are the Christians, Jews and Muslims, at least as I have come to know and experience it.

It’s kind a tough to explain, but I hope your able to see the connections. The final proof, to me, is the absolute truth of the direct experience of Love that each brings to the table. As experienced, it’s not a different love. They all touch the same love and compassion as experience within the entity they worship and pray to.

I could go on and on, but this is long enough.


…

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

But don't you think that maybe, just maybe, number is a mortal thing. That God is one and many at the same time and that we limit God by assigning God with a gender and a number?

God condemned the worship of gods, which were nothing more than chiseled wood and stone, fashioned as it pleased man to create. You cannot have God saying there is no other, and other. It is a logical impossibility. A clear contradiction.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

If you don't mind, I'm going to weigh in on this discussion because where someone say's we are worshipping different entities, I'd say that perhaps we are worshipping the same entity, but through a different venue’s

Hi! Welcome to the discssion!

Here's the first part of why. The reason why "I" don't worship Jesus is because when I put myself into Jesus and worship and pray to that whom Jesus worshipped and prayed to, I find a point of focus that is the absolute Oneness of All. That's where I direct my prayer towards. When I place myself into the shoes of Abraham and Mohammed, and worship and pray to that whom they to, I find the same focus on the same absolute Oneness of All that Jesus worshipped and prayed to.

Here is what Jesus has to say about it: John 14:6

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So we can see from this that we cannot have another way and be in agreement with Jesus. No one can have His objectives who does not have Him.

It is likewise written in Isaiah 42:8:

42:8I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Consider this, if you will. At the moment Jesus died, the curtain in the temple that separated the holy of holies from the rest of the temple was ripped, top tp bottom. What would this signify to you?

Matthew 27:50-51

27:50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

27:51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

So to me this clearly shows, by direct experience, that the same entity is worshipped and prayed to via different venue’s.

Yet logic testifies that this cannot be so. You cannot have an exclusive God by means of that other gods. It's is an impossibility.

Moreover, the objective of choosing a religion is to be the one doing the choosing, to be in authority over God. And we know from our powerlessness, our temporality that this cannot be.

Here's the second part of why. There is no way that I can separate my Beloved from life and it’s very own Creation. To me, the ONLY Holy Text directly written by the very hand of God can be found ONLY with in my Beloved’s Creation. People who follow the Wicca way read this Holy Text found in Creation. If they were to follow the it to the point of focus, one would find they were praying to and worshipping the same entity as are the Christians, Jews and Muslims, at least as I have come to know and experience it.

This would mean you were making a choice according to what you love. That would place the human being in authority. The eternal cannot be found amongst the temporal. The eternal God created the temporal for His use. Any time someone uses an entity, that entity may exist, but he is not Jehovah. Jehovah does not yield His glory to another. So if you divine things, or cast spells, hexes or charms or invoke, or in any other way use spirits, this alone testifies that this is not God. This entity has yielded himself to you. God will never do that. God is kind and makes provision in His providence. But He is in charge.

Moreover, anytime a person seeks anything other than truth, s/he doesn't get truth, but that which was sought. This includes personal sovereignty. Fellowship with the world. Temporal desires. Earthly anything. Self glory. Riches.

God provides what we need and He provides for our wishes (in His will, and those which are not destructive) if we seek Him. Anything else cannot satisfy, even if a person gains them. These things are not truth. Seeking them will not lead to truth.

I'm not saying this to you, but as a general truth that fits in with the discussion.

It’s kind a tough to explain, but I hope your able to see the connections. The final proof, to me, is the absolute truth of the direct experience of Love that each brings to the table. As experienced, it’s not a different love. They all touch the same love and compassion as experience within the entity they worship and pray to.

I'm glad you would like to see more love and compassion in the world. Me too. But the only true love is that which is grounded in truth, and that is why the truth must always be disseminated.

Blessings to you.