Is being Wiccan moral?

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I read them. They didn't. They simply said that those who engage in such acts will not be admitted to Heaven.

Exactly. This isn't moral by God's sayso.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

But does thinking that a person is moral (other than one thing they do because honestly doing one immoral thing doesn't exactly destroy one's record forever and it total) who happens to be a wiccan being disloyal to your God? Yes or no?

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

Jacob, I certainly see what you're saying; there are some who profess to be Christians and are not, there are new Christians who are yet unsanctified, and there are those who struggle with some besetting sin. I agree with you there.

What I'm shooting for is definition. To define what falls into what category. I'm showing that witchcraft is in itself very offensive to God, and therefore cannot be moral.

Prayers, peace and love to you, too!

Oh, I definitely did not take any offense at all. Please don't think I did. I know sometimes my words may come across like that.

I guess it's not in my nature to judge anyone's morality. And, as a former pagan, I have a different understanding of Wicca then most Christians. 'Spells' in Wicca, are in basis prayers. Yes, they are prayers to a different god, but they are still prayers.

As far as my thoughts on whether or not a Wiccan is moral, this is the dictionary definition of moral, which would indicate that a Wiccan could be moral. My only point was that morality is subjective to everyone's personal beliefs and opinions.

Hope I do not offend anyone.

Jacob

I forgot to add the definition.. hehe

mor·al ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (môr

l, m

r

-)
adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

 

[SquareC]

Exactly. This isn't moral by God's sayso.

Morality changes with the times and places it is practiced. What we consider moral now is not what was considered moral 2000 years ago. Look in your Bible and tell me you consider everything in it to be absolutely moral. Especially the Old Testament. Should we go out and stone an adulterer now? Enslave our neighbors?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

But does thinking that a person is moral (other than one thing they do because honestly doing one immoral thing doesn't exactly destroy one's record forever and it total) who happens to be a wiccan being disloyal to your God? Yes or no?

If you went to a restaurant, and the waitress flirted with your boyfriend and he flirted back, but he also opened the doors for you, paid for your meal, took you to see a movie, ran your errands for you, and brought you flowers, would he be a loyal boyfriend?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Oh, I definitely did not take any offense at all. Please don't think I did. I know sometimes my words may come across like that.

I guess it's not in my nature to judge anyone's morality. And, as a former pagan, I have a different understanding of Wicca then most Christians. 'Spells' in Wicca, are in basis prayers. Yes, they are prayers to a different god, but they are still prayers.

As far as my thoughts on whether or not a Wiccan is moral, this is the dictionary definition of moral, which would indicate that a Wiccan could be moral. My only point was that morality is subjective to everyone's personal beliefs and opinions.

Hope I do not offend anyone.

Jacob

I forgot to add the definition.. hehe

mor·al ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (môr

l, m

r

-)
adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

I see what you're saying, but then we have a dilemma. What if it is offensive to God? God will not let any false god steal His glory. Idolotry is extremely offensive to Him. If God determines this lifestyle immoral, then we too must view it as such.

I understand what you're saying about making determinations about other people's morality, but we have to if we're Christians. It's hard to say something we know isn't going to be popular. But when we hold fast to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and we trust in Him to be our Savior, we are bound by covenant to His household. We are not of this world any longer.

When we affirm what God affirms, and we stand fast to it, we bear fruit for the kingdom of God and are partaking in His purposes. People don't always like it, but in the end, some will hear. Some will be spared in the judgment. And that's the only thing that lasts forever. It's the only thing we get to keep.

Blessings to you.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Morality changes with the times and places it is practiced. What we consider moral now is not what was considered moral 2000 years ago. Look in your Bible and tell me you consider everything in it to be absolutely moral. Especially the Old Testament. Should we go out and stone an adulterer now? Enslave our neighbors?

Does morality change, or does the opinion of men change? First, we need to determine what the measure is by which we determine morality. Without this absolute truth, we can look at times when murder was prevalent and considered moral. But we know in our hearts this is wrong. Men can't determine morality-we don't have the right. God has planted morality in our hearts, but most people suppress the truth because it gets in the way of what they really want to do.

There are no inconsistencies in the OT, although it is certainly a far more perfect manifestation of loving our neigbor as ourselves, the second part of the law, to abolish slavery. But do you feel it is in the hearts of men to abolish slavery? I know that all grace comes from God. Now one might be a saving grace, another might be common grace. But all good comes from the throne of God. What God tolerates and what God loves are two very different things. God used slavery to punish nations that insisted in enslaving themselves to demonic forces through idolotry. It was an outward representation of a spiritual reality. And it was through slavery that God brought the truth to nations that did not know Him, when He sent His people off into slavery. So even in times of punishment, the grace of God was present. There are eternal purposes even for these deeply troubling human institutions. God had His purposes. But what God does and what we must do are likewise two very differnt things.

 

[tcampen]

Just as an aside, if true morality doesn't change, then was it wrong for Adam and Eve's children to commit incest with eachother? If it was wrong then, wasn't God setting them up since there was no way to procreate without being incestuous? And if it wasn't immoral then, but it is now, how can God's morality be unchanging?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Just as an aside, if true morality doesn't change, then was it wrong for Adam and Eve's children to commit incest with eachother? If it was wrong then, wasn't God setting them up since there was no way to procreate without being incestuous? And if it wasn't immoral then, but it is now, how can God's morality be unchanging?

That's actually a very good question. God does change rules and covenents. Notice how Jesus responded to the adulteress when a bunch men wnated to stone her. He released her.

We are under a different covenant now. And God chose to create two people and have the rest stem from there, I'm guessing so the whole world would be under the same conditions, but this God has not revealed. That last part I'm just speculating.

But God instituted the law against it later, but until there were enough people, he permitted it. So He can change the way He wants things done, as He did with ceremonial law, which was never moral law to begin with, but it was still a violation of the law to omit any part of it.

But the main point is, God has a right to do so. We don't. He is the authority by virtue of having created us.

Great question. You have a gifted intellect.

 

[gillfrost]

just to clarify...

Moral is truth, right and wrong, in the sense that there is one right and wrong whatever it may be.

Ethical is what is accepted by society to be somehow 'moral'

'Morality' is defined different by everyone
so It is impossible to determine one single moral truth

therefore, since the questian is whether or not Wiccan is moral is purely Academic. The moral base for Wiccan is different for each person.

By my own standards, Wiccan is immoral. But just like Homosexuality, one can only chose whether he thinks it is moral or not.

The only thing we can do is to strive to find the true path, the true moral "code." For many of use the journey for truth has lead us to Christainity.

 

[gillfrost]

Oh and God never changes his mind, people change their minds on what they think God designates as "Moral"

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

just to clarify...

Moral is truth, right and wrong, in the sense that there is one right and wrong whatever it may be.

Ethical is what is accepted by society to be somehow 'moral'

'Morality' is defined different by everyone
so It is impossible to determine one single moral truth

therefore, since the questian is whether or not Wiccan is moral is purely Academic. The moral base for Wiccan is different for each person.

By my own standards, Wiccan is immoral. But just like Homosexuality, one can only chose whether he thinks it is moral or not.

The only thing we can do is to strive to find the true path, the true moral "code." For many of use the journey for truth has lead us to Christainity.

I'm curious about the basis for your statement that morality is determined by each person. Then by this definition there is no such thing as morality, because everyone can do what they want.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Oh and God never changes his mind, people change their minds on what they think God designates as "Moral"

God changes the way He wants things done inder certain circumstances, like His change in covenant. His giving of the gospel to the Gentiles. Things like that. Study scripture. You'll see it. There's no change in perception-it

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Well... a thought on this: if God changes his mind from time to time and we haven't had one of his written works since the Bible - though over the many years some people have claimed he spoke to them - then how do you know that what's in the Bible is what God wants today?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

The Bible, in its original language (i.e. Hebrew) does refer to witches, necromancers, mediums, familiar spirits, etc. But, today's pagans hardly engage in the foul & loathsome rites (burning children to Molech, temple prostitution, etc.) of the ancient Canaanites, Moabites, etc. Also, in the Jewish view, the Torah's many pronouncements against witches, necromancers, etc. do not apply to non-Jews.

One of our Sages said that we must be very, very careful in rooting out sin and in touting virtue. We should root out sin in ourselves before looking to root it out in others & tout others' virtues before we tout our own.

While I don't know much about Wicca, I've met more than a few Wiccans on various interfaith boards & without any doubt, I have found them, as a group, to be the most tolerant, patient and unarrogant people I've met on these sites. No Wiccan has ever witnessed at me. No Wiccan has ever told me that I'm necessarily going to hell because I'm Jewish, i.e. not Wiccan. No Wiccan has ever patronized me or treated me as anything less than an equal. And some people dare to call them evil merely because their beliefs are different? As my people say, that's real chutzpah!

Be well!

ssv

 

[jetrich]

mor·al

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

I stated this earlier (Sept.) before all this erupted. It all stems from Conforming to standards of what is right of just in behavior. But whose standards??

Where exactly would a Christian's moral standard come from? The Bible. The Bible also teaches that narrow is the path of righteousness and wide is the path that leads to destruction (something like that). And that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no one gets to the father except through him.

I hold a Christian belief system and in doing so I cannot accept Wicca as a moral practice because it doesn't conform to the beliefs I hold. I've said before that morals are relative to the beliefs that a person holds.

Look at it from the Wiccan's point of view. A Wiccan would consider my stance immoral because I am not as tolerant as they are and I don't adhere to the belief of "if it doesn't hurt anybody else..."

Ergo, my previous point of what answer can you expect if you come to a Christian website and ask if Wicca is moral?

If a Christian truly holds to the teachings of the Bible and strives to grow in their Christian faith they can not and will not accept the liberalist teachings of a secular world.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Hi all!

The Bible, in its original language (i.e. Hebrew) does refer to witches, necromancers, mediums, familiar spirits, etc. But, today's pagans hardly engage in the foul & loathsome rites (burning children to Molech, temple prostitution, etc.) of the ancient Canaanites, Moabites, etc. Also, in the Jewish view, the Torah's many pronouncements against witches, necromancers, etc. do not apply to non-Jews.

One of our Sages said that we must be very, very careful in rooting out sin and in touting virtue. We should root out sin in ourselves before looking to root it out in others & tout others' virtues before we tout our own.

While I don't know much about Wicca, I've met more than a few Wiccans on various interfaith boards & without any doubt, I have found them, as a group, to be the most tolerant, patient and unarrogant people I've met on these sites. No Wiccan has ever witnessed at me. No Wiccan has ever told me that I'm necessarily going to hell because I'm Jewish, i.e. not Wiccan. No Wiccan has ever patronized me or treated me as anything less than an equal. And some people dare to call them evil merely because their beliefs are different? As my people say, that's real chutzpah!

Be well!

ssv

So are you saying that God allows people who are not Jewish to worship false Gods? In making the statements above you're misrepresenting the word of God and condemning Him! That's what my God would call real chutzpah! In any army, it is treason to fraternize with the enemy. It leads to a court martial. Are you suggesting that Christians should cozy up to God's enemies and try to be liked and admired by them because they're afraid of persecution? That they should value their comfort more than they do their God? That they should listen to the left pounding their Godforsaken pulpit of tolernace, with tolerance for everyone but for Christians? That we should become gods unto ourselves? God forbid, we will not surround ourselves with teachers telling what itching ears want to hear. Believe it or not, God does have people in this country who will remain true to Him. Those whom God has chosen will be faithful to God. We are called to be in the world but not of it.

 

[ajna]

This is a reply to all of you who keep talking about what God wants and what He condemns or does not condemn.
I don't know if you realized this, but God is not a person, His intentions are not known to mortals. How can any of you presume to know what he wants and will or will not condemn. Even the idea that this tread is up here serves as proof that we, as humans, are imperfect.
For some reason you don't have enough to discuss you decide to pick on people who are different from you?
If any of you have read the original texts, all the original texts considered by Constantine, in the original languages, I appologize and I ask you rather than to condemn others, to ponder your own mindset and, if you still think many of them evil, to find it in your heart to let it go.
Whether or not someone practices something you don't approve of, or even things you do approve of, is none of your business unless you are the someone.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

God makes it our business to proclaim the truth. Yes, I know we're in a culture where we are expected to forsake this calling and every attempt is being made to silence Christianity, but we're called to be loyal to God, not man. We do the job we're called to do. And telling the truth even when the culture is trying to assert authority over Christians and our God alike, is what we're called to do. It's not loving someone to allow them to silence God's voice in our culture when we're called to give the truth. False teachings aren't going to do anyone any good.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Whitehorse posted:

So are you saying that God allows people who are not Jewish to worship false Gods?

Judaism most definitely does NOT believe that it's "our way or the highway to hell" (i.e. We don't believe that all non-Jews will go to hell). Our Sages say that, "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come." We believe that whereas there are 613 precepts/commandments in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy; our most basic scripture) that are incumbent/binding on Jews, there are only 7 that are binding on non-Jews. Using the traditional methods of Jewish Biblical exegesis, our Sages infer these 7 precepts from Genesis 9:1-17 & believe that God gave them to Noah & his sons. Since Noah & sons were not Jewish, we refer to these 7 precepts as the 7 Noahide Precepts. The 7 are: 1) To establish courts of justice; 2) No blasphemy; 3) No idolatry; 4) No incest/adultery; 5) Do not shed blood; 6) Do not steal & 7) Do not cut meat from a living animal. ("Bnai Noach" means "Children of Noah" in Hebrew and refers to those non-Jews who abide by the 7 precepts. See http://www.noach.com/links.html for some interesting links.)

Thus, in our view & understanding, if a non-Jew wants to pray to Odin/Zeus/etc., he/she is not doing anything wrong.

In making the statements above you're misrepresenting the word of God and condemning Him!

Maybe according to certain Christians, but not according to the traditional (i.ew. orthodox) way of looking at it.

In any army, it is treason to fraternize with the enemy.

"Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us all?" [Malachi 2:10]

Are you suggesting that Christians should cozy up to God's enemies and try to be liked and admired by them because they're afraid of persecution?

What Christians do us up to them. Keep in mind that "Ignorance and intolerance are the Devil's footmen."

That they should listen to the left pounding their Godforsaken pulpit of tolernace, with tolerance for everyone but for Christians? That we should become gods unto ourselves? God forbid, we will not surround ourselves with teachers telling what itching ears want to hear.

As a fairly conservative Republican, I'm afraid I don't have the slightest idea as to what you're talking about here!

Believe it or not, God does have people in this country who will remain true to Him.

And the Devil take the rest? Is anyone who does not believe as you do necessarily not of God's people?

Our 18th century Sage, Rabbi Menachem Mendl of Kotzk says: "Just as we accept that our neighbors face does not resemble ours, so too must we accept that his views do not resemble ours."

Be well!

ssv