Is being Wiccan moral?

[SquareC]

I am confused about a few things, and pardon me, no offense intended, I find the idea of casting spells about as real as Lycanthopes. I hope that you are not offended by that, but the idea of casting spells doesn't seem real to me. Perhaps it is my concept of what is meant by 'casting spells'. My conception of 'spells' comes from my childhood - old ladies in black robes with pointed hats stirring a black cauldron chanting "boil, boil, ..." something. Black cats, magic wands, broom sticks, and such.

How can you remember 'the burning times' if Wicca is perhaps 50 - 60 years old?

No, I am not offended! At least in my own experience, spells are nothing like that! My own spells are directed prayers to the Goddess and God. There are rituals to follow, but they are more in the nature of what people find comfort in when speaking to or requesting help from their deity, many have different rituals or none.

Wicca, itself, is only around 50 years old, it is true. The religion it is based upon, the Old Religion, is many thousands of years old. That is what I mean when referencing the burning times, the ancient pagan ways which were almost driven out of existence. The reverence for the Lady and the Lord was kept alive only in hiding and terror of persecution. We are trying to "reconstruct" what our ancestors believed. Have I answered your questions?

 

[Blissman]

being wiccan is definitely not ok. it is a direct violation of the first commandment and puts into practice faith in something that is not God. It is blatantly obvious that it is sinnful to practice anything that doesnt solely glorify God.

An interesting question, Benjammin333, is if the sole critera for being Wiccan is
"Do no harm", and (paraphrased) "Do good", why would those 2 principles speak
against Christianity?

To put it another way, would, from the perspective of Christianity (and not from that of Wicca) could you be both a Christian and Wiccan?

I pose as a question from the point of veiw as Wiccan: Can you be Wiccan and Christian?

 

[SquareC]

An interesting question, Benjammin333, is if the sole critera for being Wiccan is
"Do no harm", and (paraphrased) "Do good", why would those 2 principles speak
against Christianity?

To put it another way, would, from the perspective of Christianity (and not from that of Wicca) could you be both a Christian and Wiccan?

I pose as a question from the point of veiw as Wiccan: Can you be Wiccan and Christian?

From the point of view of a Wiccan, I would think not. I worship the Lady & the Lord, I do not believe in heaven or hell, I do not believe in the concept of "sin" ... I don't see how one could be both, although it is not for me to judge the path of spirituality of another. I just don't see how someone could resolve the conflicts between the two religions enough to practice both wholeheartedly.

 

[Blissman]

No, I am not offended! At least in my own experience, spells are nothing like that! My own spells are directed prayers to the Goddess and God. There are rituals to follow, but they are more in the nature of what people find comfort in when speaking to or requesting help from their deity, many have different rituals or none.

Wicca, itself, is only around 50 years old, it is true. The religion it is based upon, the Old Religion, is many thousands of years old. That is what I mean when referencing the burning times, the ancient pagan ways which were almost driven out of existence. The reverence for the Lady and the Lord was kept alive only in hiding and terror of persecution. We are trying to "reconstruct" what our ancestors believed. Have I answered your questions?

Yes, thank you very much. I have a few more questions, one of which I ask because it is based on respect. As I had posted, I am a Unitarian Universalist. I am quite happy to be a Christian, a Jew, and many most faiths whom believe in one God, morals, laws or respect for God and for people, care, loving brotherhood, a respect for others, a belief that we are all born with a dignity, and that we should respect and celebrate each others dignity.
We should respect those whom we do not know to have acted in evil.
My point, Square C, is that inasmuch as I do not know you as a person, and know little about your faith, I want to respect you. Here then is my question.
Is there some phrase that you would like me to use in speaking to you? By that, I mean, you sign "Blessed Be!". Should I preface, or in some way address you that is, because of your faith, respectful? Is it proper to call you, "a Wiccan", or "Wiccan"? In your faith, from what I have been able to understand, there is both a male and a female God. Is this meant that God, in your faith, may be either a male a female, or without gonads, or rather, in your faith are there two Gods? Is your faith monotheistic? (That is, should it be so that in your faith that there is both a male and a female God, is this
view, in your faith, still monothiesm?)

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Square C- forgive my answering if it bothers you as the question was asked of you - but I already had this ready from posting on another thread and I thought it might be helpful here, Blessed Be:

To start: Diety. This is the Divine. It is the Faceless One with Many Faces. The Creator Energy. It would equate in power to your God. This Entity is genderless and fairly impersonal as we can not directly comprehend such an Entity. Wicca chooses to divide the Divine into a Male and Female duality. The Male is further divided into three aspects: The Hunter (youth, vitality, fertility, lusty urge to procreate and so on), The Father (akin to the concept of the God of the New Testement, protective, guiding, loving, providing and so on), and The Wise Man (maturity, grandfatherly, wise, knowing, and so on). These three aspects can (although they are not always) be divided further into individual gods. Thor would be a Hunter-god or possibly a Father-god depending on the mythology one follows. Zeus would be a Father-god. Hades would be more of the Wiseman-god as might be Apollo despite the fact that he is a younger god. The Female aspect is also divided into three: The Maiden (youth, virginity often, purity always, independance, strength (sometimes even a masucline strength), and so on), the Mother (nurturing, loving, protective, sometimes aggressive in the protection of her children, akin to Mary as the Catholics view her sometimes, and so on), and the Crone (wise, 'hag' though she may be beautiful, renewed independance from men, no longer able to bear children she yet holds the keys to life and death as she has given life and now brings death, divination is generally her purview, and so on). These too can be divided further into individual goddesses. Athena is a Maiden goddess because of her purity and her independance, Artemis is also considered a Maiden-goddess. Hera is a Crone-goddess despite her age and beauty much of the time as is Hectate. Gaia, Brigid, Demeter, these are all Mother-goddesses (of which there are many).

That's a view of the Divine from a wiccan/pagan standpoint. Often a wiccan will follow the Lord and Lady (the Male and Female) without further distillation, but others have specific pantheons to which they subscribe and are more attuned with. These could be Greek, Egyptian, Celtic, Welsh, Native American even.

The main point of all this division is to become closer to Deity by aspecting Deity to a point where you can understand and form a relationship with part of Diety and thereby all of Deity in part.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Yes, thank you very much. I have a few more questions, one of which I ask because it is based on respect. As I had posted, I am a Unitarian Universalist. I am quite happy to be a Christian, a Jew, and many most faiths whom believe in one God,

Well, Unitarianism isn't Christianity. THere are a whole host of beliefs that would separate the two, just for the purpose of classification.

 

[Havoc]

There are many Unitarians who are Christian. Unitarian is a philosophy of believeing what you believe, and celebrating that there are beliefs different than yours.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

There are many Unitarians who are Christian. Unitarian is a philosophy of believeing what you believe, and celebrating that there are beliefs different than yours.

I do understand what you're getting at, but this doctrine is in direct opposition to the Christian doctrine of divine exclusivity. This is the single most basic doctrine of Christianity. You cannot be a Christian and ascribe any religion or God than Jehovah.

 

[Blissman]

It would be immoral of me to lie to you just to make you happy. Take a gander at God's word in my post above. And I hope you would not have wiccans denied an uncomfortable truth at the expense of their souls. I cannot and will not do this.

Excuse me, please, Whitehorse. I believe that here you may have erred. You had said,

"I hope you would not have wiccans denied an uncomfortable truth at the expense of their souls. I cannot and will not do this."

Respectfully, You can not do this? You cannot deny Wiccans an uncomfortable truth? (You) cannot do this?

Whitehorse, you are speaking as if your voice was that of the authority of The Lord Himself! Please, as you are not Him, do not speak as if His voice.

Thank You.

 

[Blissman]

I do understand what you're getting at, but this doctrine is in direct opposition to the Christian doctrine of divine exclusivity. This is the single most basic doctrine of Christianity. You cannot be a Christian and ascribe any religion or God than Jehovah.

Respectfuly, Whitehorse, you do not speak for Christianity itself, only Jesus could speak so. It would be poisonous if we all spoke as if we alone knew the
truth. We are only mortals with each our own opinions, ideas, questions, and hopes. We can ask The Lord, and we can exchange ideas and ponder, but no one here defines the whole faith.

I would rather have Jesus judge me, my faith, it's validity to Christianity than any one person here, including myself. As long as we are mortal we will always be fools who seek to know the truth. We will never be certain that which we have grasped and hold as dear, may in fact, less than air. It is our joy that we shall forever try to grasp. We roam around, certain, and uncertain, bumping in to truths, mirrors, and mirages. We have each other,
we have our wits, and we have our witlessness.

What is wonderful about this forum is that so many souls have come togeather to share our wonder, our joy, and our confusion.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Excuse me, please, Whitehorse. I believe that here you may have erred. You had said,

"I hope you would not have wiccans denied an uncomfortable truth at the expense of their souls. I cannot and will not do this."

Respectfully, You can not do this? You cannot deny Wiccans an uncomfortable truth? (You) cannot do this?

Whitehorse, you are speaking as if your voice was that of the authority of The Lord Himself! Please, as you are not Him, do not speak as if His voice.

Thank You.

have His word and His instructions. No one, including you, has the authority to override those instructions. I'd be happy to hear the basis of your statements.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Respectfuly, Whitehorse, you do not speak for Christianity itself, only Jesus could speak so. It would be poisonous if we all spoke as if we alone knew the
truth. We are only mortals with each our own opinions, ideas, questions, and hopes. We can ask The Lord, and we can exchange ideas and ponder, but no one here defines the whole faith.

I would rather have Jesus judge me, my faith, it's validity to Christianity than any one person here, including myself. As long as we are mortal we will always be fools who seek to know the truth. We will never be certain that which we have grasped and hold as dear, may in fact, less than air. It is our joy that we shall forever try to grasp. We roam around, certain, and uncertain, bumping in to truths, mirrors, and mirages. We have each other,
we have our wits, and we have our witlessness.

What is wonderful about this forum is that so many souls have come togeather to share our wonder, our joy, and our confusion.

THis denies two things: God's revealed word, and His Holy Spirit. If you say the fruit of those things is confusion and foolishness, you do not judge me, but God. Is it not truly your own authority you feel is lessened by these things?

 

[Havoc]

I do understand what you're getting at, but this doctrine is in direct opposition to the Christian doctrine of divine exclusivity. This is the single most basic doctrine of Christianity. You cannot be a Christian and ascribe any religion or God than Jehovah.

So you say. There are a multitude of Christians who would disagree with you. Some of the most tolerant and least judgemental Christians I know are Liberal Christians, most of whom believe you should show the same respect toward other peoples beliefs you would have them show yours.

Remember, Evangelical Christians number only about 12% of all Christians. Your opinions are the minority. Should I listen to a vocal and prejudiced minority, or the more Christ-like majority on the subject of what is a "true" Christian?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So you say. There are a multitude of Christians who would disagree with you. Some of the most tolerant and least judgemental Christians I know are Liberal Christians, most of whom believe you should show the same respect toward other peoples beliefs you would have them show yours.

Remember, Evangelical Christians number only about 12% of all Christians. Your opinions are the minority. Should I listen to a vocal and prejudiced minority, or the more Christ-like majority on the subject of what is a "true" Christian?

As long as anyone thinks man knows more about God than God, this is where they'll be looking. But it won't lead them to the truth.

Minority? You bet it's the minority: The Bible says that *very* few will ever find the kingdom of God. And it's true, isn't it. Because the truth about the vast majority of people is that they do not want to be ruled by God. They want to make their own rules. That's why they continually bypass the subject of authority...which is the very reason their arguments cannot stand. They select religion according to what they feel suits them. Of course, it won't lead to the truth.

But, most people don't want the truth.

 

[Blissman]

have His word and His instructions. No one, including you, has the authority to override those instructions. I'd be happy to hear the basis of your statements.

Prove to me that you have His word, and I not. Does God speak to you any differently than He does to me? You may believe that it is you to whom God speaks truth, and not anyone else. That you may believe it does not mean that it is true. You, and I, are both mortals. You have been arguing that what is in fact your opinion is not an opinion, but (one would presume) from God's mouth to your ears. Sir, you have no pipleine to the Lord. (Nor do I). What you speak, argue, and proffer as an interpretation is not THE interpretation, any more than would mine, nor anyone else here on the BBS. This is why I say that we are "confused". As long as we are mortal men, we can seek the truth. But that does not mean that that what we believe to be the truth, IS the truth. I respect you as a person, and your opinion, sir, but I do not find that you have any authority greater than anyone else (nor less, of course). You can not judge others, sir, as if you were divine. Like myself, you seek to know God's truth, and you hold principles. I would believe that God expects man to find the Truth, and that we, man, to hold principles (more so, perhaps, we should hold ourselves to conduct our own lives properly).

Centuries ago, Galileo was placed on trial by the Church, for teaching that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and that the Earth was but one of many planets which revolved around the Sun. He had pleaded, "I beseech you sir,
from the bowels of Christ, to think it possible that you may be wrong."

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Prove to me that you have His word, and I not. Does God speak to you any differently than He does to me? You may believe that it is you to whom God speaks truth, and not anyone else. That you may believe it does not mean that it is true. You, and I, are both mortals. You have been arguing that what is in fact your opinion is not an opinion, but (one would presume) from God's mouth to your ears. Sir, you have no pipleine to the Lord. (Nor do I). What you speak, argue, and proffer as an interpretation is not THE interpretation, any more than would mine, nor anyone else here on the BBS. This is why I say that we are "confused". As long as we are mortal men, we can seek the truth. But that does not mean that that what we believe to be the truth, IS the truth. I respect you as a person, and your opinion, sir, but I do not find that you have any authority greater than anyone else (nor less, of course). You can not judge others, sir, as if you were divine. Like myself, you seek to know God's truth, and you hold principles. I would believe that God expects man to find the Truth, and that we, man, to hold principles (more so, perhaps, we should hold ourselves to conduct our own lives properly).

Centuries ago, Galileo was placed on trial by the Church, for teaching that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and that the Earth was but one of many planets which revolved around the Sun. He had pleaded, "I beseech you sir,
from the bowels of Christ, to think it possible that you may be wrong."

I'm ever so glad you mentioned Galileo. I invite you to consider that putting on a robe does not make someone a servant of Christ. Profession does not make someone a servant of Christ. Giving tithe or caring for the poor does not make someone a servant of Christ. But before I ask you how you arrive at truth, I would encourage you to consider this: it *is* the sun at the center. A heliocentric universe. Yet the church argued for an earth-centered universe. What do you suppose is the significance of this?

And you'll notice it is the sun in the center. Very appropriate, from a genuinely Christian standpoint. But why was it ivery mportant to powerful men, that the earth be in the center? And why were they angry enough to kill?

As for interpretation, most people say this when they want to make scripture into what they want it to be. I invite you to weigh this truth in connection with the Galileo discovery.

...And you'll notice that it is the sun, not the earth, in the middle. The same is true with the rest of truth as well. The earth is just one of a few other planets.

 

[Blissman]

I'm ever so glad you mentioned Galileo. I invite you to consider that putting on a robe does not make someone a servant of Christ. Profession does not make someone a servant of Christ. Giving tithe or caring for the poor does not make someone a servant of Christ. But before I ask you how you arrive at truth, I would encourage you to consider this: it *is* the sun at the center. A heliocentric universe. Yet the church argued for an earth-centered universe. What do you suppose is the significance of this?

And you'll notice it is the sun in the center. Very appropriate, from a genuinely Christian standpoint. But why was it ivery mportant to powerful men, that the earth be in the center? And why were they angry enough to kill?

As for interpretation, most people say this when they want to make scripture into what they want it to be. I invite you to weigh this truth in connection with the Galileo discovery.

...And you'll notice that it is the sun, not the earth, in the middle. The same is true with the rest of truth as well. The earth is just one of a few other planets.

Thank you, Whitehorse. I believe that was the issue in it's day (and perhaps in some parts the world, it may include 'today'), although it is not a helio or solar centrist argument, but rather the threat that there is no anthorpocentrism. (Or more so, perhaps a threat to autoanthropentism). Outside of any discussions that might ordinarily take place in this forum, is that perhaps we still need to believe that we are the center of the universe. If you look in our sceince fiction, you could ask, "Why do 'little green men in flying saucers' with technology so advance that they can 'fly' anywhere in the universe would want to come here"? What is so special about us? Out of the upmteen zillion planets, moons, etc., in the entire universe, why does (supposedly) everthing want to come here? Is it the Pizza? Perhaps it's chocolate. It is our entertaiment, our dream, it is our ego.
I think that we are still autoanthropocentric. The question perhaps is, does it dominate us? It is easy for anyone to see this in others, especially when there is a conflict, real or ideological. I could sit here all day (for what good it would do) and say that most of the people in the Middle East have become insane with self-rightousness, and are hell-bent on proving it.
Faith, morals, morality, judgement, and a lessening of judgemements are on the same side of the same sharp edge of the same sword. On the one hand, without any values, without any resolve to live by those values, it would leave one to a moral sewer. On the other hand, looking at the Middle East for
guidance, we can see what happens when men are certain that they alone are the morality, that their own voice is THE voice. You could end up in the same moral sewer.
Which end is right, the ever dull end, or the end which is so sharp that you cannot avoid stabbing yourself?
If you use history as a measure, we (man in general) has failed too many times to grasp that sword, and to flail it in the air towards everyone else.
I don't claim to know the answer. I have yet to see that anyone who has claimed that they have "THE" answer to be any better or wiser than anyone whom they claim to lead.
I can, as no doubt you, will try to live, try, and hope that they are wiser than they had thought, and not they are so wise.
As for myself, sir, I believe that the best way to make the world a moral place, is for me to act as best as I can judge, and accept with grace the opinions of others - including those who do not think the same as me.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Thank you, Whitehorse. I believe that was the issue in it's day (and perhaps in some parts the world, it may include 'today'), although it is not a helio or solar centrist argument, but rather the threat that there is no anthorpocentrism. (Or more so, perhaps a threat to autoanthropentism). Outside of any discussions that might ordinarily take place in this forum, is that perhaps we still need to believe that we are the center of the universe. If you look in our sceince fiction, you could ask, "Why do 'little green men in flying saucers' with technology so advance that they can 'fly' anywhere in the universe would want to come here"? What is so special about us? Out of the upmteen zillion planets, moons, etc., in the entire universe, why does (supposedly) everthing want to come here? Is it the Pizza? Perhaps it's chocolate. It is our entertaiment, our dream, it is our ego.
I think that we are still autoanthropocentric.

Yes!!! Amen! This is great. This is the first time someone has actually answered this question.

The question perhaps is, does it dominate us? It is easy for anyone to see this in others, especially when there is a conflict, real or ideological. I could sit here all day (for what good it would do) and say that most of the people in the Middle East have become insane with self-rightousness, and are hell-bent on proving it.
Faith, morals, morality, judgement, and a lessening of judgemements are on the same side of the same sharp edge of the same sword. On the one hand, without any values, without any resolve to live by those values, it would leave one to a moral sewer. On the other hand, looking at the Middle East for
guidance, we can see what happens when men are certain that they alone are the morality, that their own voice is THE voice. You could end up in the same moral sewer.

This is so great! Like you say, the difference is where the authority is. And in a world driven by a geocentric philosophy, that would give the authority to fallen man. Religions made by man are designed to obtain for him what he desires. But a God-centered faith is designed to give God what He wants. And since He is without sin, that means it's good for us, too. So we have an old church, over-run with sinful men who craved power, we have the corruption that implies, and we have a geocentric view of the universe. All of these are consistent.

Which end is right, the ever dull end, or the end which is so sharp that you cannot avoid stabbing yourself?
If you use history as a measure, we (man in general) has failed too many times to grasp that sword, and to flail it in the air towards everyone else.
I don't claim to know the answer. I have yet to see that anyone who has claimed that they have "THE" answer to be any better or wiser than anyone whom they claim to lead.
I can, as no doubt you, will try to live, try, and hope that they are wiser than they had thought, and not they are so wise.
As for myself, sir, I believe that the best way to make the world a moral place, is for me to act as best as I can judge, and accept with grace the opinions of others - including those who do not think the same as me.

But God does have the answer. He has the right to authorize people to have it as well. We all fail in many ways, true. And we have to look inside ourselves before judging others. But to a man's own Master he stands or falls.

So, God has to be God. And we are not. This solar system is heliocentric, not geocentric. And I think true wisdom is in seeking God. He alone can determine truth, and He has the authority to call people and send them to do His work. In my heart, I know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding [Job 28:28].

 

[Blissman]

But God does have the answer. He has the right to authorize people to have it as well. We all fail in many ways, true. And we have to look inside ourselves before judging others. But to a man's own Master he stands or falls.


So, God has to be God. And we are not. This solar system is heliocentric, not geocentric. And I think true wisdom is in seeking God. He alone can determine truth, and He has the authority to call people and send them to do His work. In my heart, I know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding [Job 28:28].

I agree with you, Whitehorse. Always, we must doubt enough so that we do not become blind with our own glory, nor blind that we do not see our own imperfections. We seek wisdom, we seek truth, and we need be cautious, we are so eager to deceive ourselves while in the very act of seeking wisdom, truth, and a body of knowlege that if it were ours, would prevent us from our deceptions, our follies, and our imperfections.

God is the Truth - Albert Einstein

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I agree with you, Whitehorse. Always, we must doubt enough so that we do not become blind with our own glory, nor blind that we do not see our own imperfections. We seek wisdom, we seek truth, and we need be cautious, we are so eager to deceive ourselves while in the very act of seeking wisdom, truth, and a body of knowlege that if it were ours, would prevent us from our deceptions, our follies, and our imperfections.

God is the Truth - Albert Einstein

Amen! Very insightful.

Jeremiah 17:9

17:9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I believe that when we put trust in man, it will always lead to disaster. And that includes putting our trust in ourselves. It will lead to every level of deceit. But when we put our trust in God, He puts the right words in our mouths, He opens up scriptures, He guides us to the truth. And that's why postmodernism is a devastating fallacy. It's tempting, but irrational, putting the faith of people in themselves. God alone can keep us from deceptions and follies. And He does. You have to love a God like that!

...and a body of knowlege that if it were ours, would prevent us from our deceptions, our follies, and our imperfections.

Exactly. The Bible has been read by Christians and nonChristians alike. But it is the Holy Spirit that makes it a living, active document. Without Him, no one can hope to understand it. Or believe it. But with God enlightening His servants and using His word, no one can begin to calculate the power of scripture. Because then it comes directly from God.