Is being Wiccan moral?

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Oakheart,

Great post. What is the one commandment you speak of?

I'd definitely argue that there are much better and clearer guides to moral behavior than the 10 Cs!

I'd even argue that the 'do unto others' rule is not as good as 'Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you'. The latter predates christian scripture and is found in ancient asian philosophy.

How do you determine what is true?

 

[oakheart]

daidhaid,
thanks for the verbal thumbs up.
i didnt know there was a parable regarding mountains and donkeys.
but it makes what i said sound pretty, where did u find it ?
bible?koran?
or even grafitti ?
please let me know as i collect stories like this.
and for the record there is no such thing as being " not nice enough".
Any religion see's to the heart not ur opinion.
Whether ur nice enough is not really ur decision to make.
Just listen to ur heart and soul- they are the best guides u will ever have.

mr moderator i hope i havnt overstepped the bounds here. Please let me know if i have.
I have a bad habit of not playing by the rules , so make me aware please.
It is not my intention to to " convert" anyone , i am simply here as a liason to dissolve any barriers of misunderstanding that we may share.
If u wish me to leave i will do so , with no complaints or grumbles or ill-feeling.
But personally i feel this is important.
Blessed be all
oakheart

 

[midnight star]

truth is something that has to be felt in the heart, after much searching. It is too easy to be told what the truth is without questioning (that isn't saying that its easy to follow that truth). Yes, some will comment that we are capable of being decieved. But we have to have faith that we are on the right path. Truth should hold up under scrutiny.

"There are two kinds of truths: small truth and great truth. You can recognize a small truth because its opposite is a falsehood. The opposite of a great truth is another great truth." Neils Bohr

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

How would you scrutinize it? How would you tell for example, whether it is truth, or a belief?

 

[midnight star]

Its hard, and you can't be sure. Thats the most honest answer i can give you. I'd like to say "personal revelation" but that might just be insanity, so who knows. I think that if people truly follow their hearts, after deep contemplation, and thorough questioning, they will eventually find their way to the truth.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Well, if we're looking for the truth about God, who would be the authority on that?

 

[Faith In God]

Just saying that you are a witch is as bad in the eyes of God as being one

 

[transientlife]

As long as one does no harm to anyone else, their religion - Wicca, Christian, Islam or otherwise- is fine by me. Some forget that while you may not physically harm someone, there can also be emotional and mental harm done to those when you aggressively judge others. Let us not forget those harms.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

As long as one does no harm to anyone else, their religion - Wicca, Christian, Islam or otherwise- is fine by me. Some forget that while you may not physically harm someone, there can also be emotional and mental harm done to those when you aggressively judge others. Let us not forget those harms.

Well, wait a minute though. You do have a cross by your name. Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God? Because is it really about what we think, or what God says? Who is the authority on morality?

 

[transientlife]

Well, wait a minute though. You do have a cross by your name. Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God? Because is it really about what we think, or what God says? Who is the authority on morality?

Yes I am a christian, and believe the bible is the word of God (I'm not exactly sure yet about it being inerrant - divinely inspired and supposed to be inerrant , yes. Open to interpretation, yes. Vulnerable to human misconception, mis-translation, and purposeful misuse - absolutely. All throughout history good and bad things have been done in the name of religion.) But I am also tolerant of other viewpoints, and realize that I could as easily be called immoral by a Muslim who recognizes the word of Allah, not the Christian God. I'm not going to impress my Christianity on a Wiccan, especially when their existence is benign as far as the topic is concerned. If Wiccans were as concerned about the religious life of others as other religions seem to be ( I may be wrong, but I don't see them going out and witnessing to others about their faith), then perhaps they could also call Christians and other non-wiccans immoral as well. It's all individual and when the parties involved don't "play by the same rules" so to speak, it's a debatable subject but you really won't get anywhere.
Besides, on second thinking, IMHO, judging a Wiccan by the Christian God is like an American being tried in a foreign country's court, they're just not the same.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Yes I am a christian, and believe the bible is the word of God (I'm not exactly sure yet about it being inerrant - divinely inspired and supposed to be inerrant , yes.

Then this would be saying God failed at His task. If you think it is errant, then how can you be sure of anything? THe whole basis for your faith has been destroyed, because you'd be picking what you think is right, not what God has ordained. We have to read the Bible and be insubmission to it, because Jesus is both savior and Lord. We can't have one without the other. If He saves us, He rules us.

Open to interpretation, yes. Vulnerable to human misconception, mis-translation, and purposeful misuse - absolutely.

Is the Bible really vulnerable? Don't we go to it with varying degrees of submission? Is the Bible any less the word of God, or is it errant because someone didn't do their exegesis right? Is it any less God's sayso because someone went to it more with the intent to look for evidence of their own beliefs or to spiritualize sin? So, one needs to ask whether the Bible really vulnerable to misinterpretation, or whether we vulnerable to insubordination.

All throughout history good and bad things have been done in the name of religion.) But I am also tolerant of other viewpoints, and realize that I could as easily be called immoral by a Muslim who recognizes the word of Allah, not the Christian God.

This presupposees a human authority on what is good or right. The Bible is very clear on false religion. We can't please both God and man. We have to choose.

I'm not going to impress my Christianity on a Wiccan, especially when their existence is benign as far as the topic is concerned.

But what does God do? Does God impose law on them? THey may feel more comfortable to have your affirmation right now, but what happens when they face judgment and thought it was okay? The bottom line is, who is the authority-man or God.

If Wiccans were as concerned about the religious life of others as other religions seem to be ( I may be wrong, but I don't see them going out and witnessing to others about their faith), then perhaps they could also call Christians and other non-wiccans immoral as well.

Friend, I think you need to find out what a Christian is before you make this kind of assertion. Read your Bible end to end. A Christian is a follwer of Christ, who strongly denounced man's supposed authority. No wiccan can be in anywise considered this.

It's all individual and when the parties involved don't "play by the same rules" so to speak, it's a debatable subject but you really won't get anywhere.
Besides, on second thinking, IMHO, judging a Wiccan by the Christian God is like an American being tried in a foreign country's court, they're just not the same.

Well, it's important because no one can claim to be a Christian unless they truly believe God's word is inerrant. The whole basis for your faith has been brought into question. Jesus is Savior, andLord.

 

[Myah]

<snip>

If Wiccans were as concerned about the religious life of others as other religions seem to be ( I may be wrong, but I don't see them going out and witnessing to others about their faith)

Wiccans, as a rule, do not preach about our beliefs. If a person is curious, then we answer their questions, but I, for one, believe that a person has to find their own path. If a person's path is Wicca, then they will find it, just as a person whose path is Christian will find theirs.

 

[Lifesaver]

I believe that while Wicca has good teachings on some areas of morality (accepting that harming others is generally wrong is already better than nothing), it falls short of the standard God has given us and calls us to follow.

 

[transientlife]

Then this would be saying God failed at His task. If you think it is errant, then how can you be sure of anything?

I didn't say I believe it was errant, I said I was unsure. I still follow the bible, but I wonder at times if it was ever perhaps tampered with, that's all.

Is the Bible really vulnerable? Don't we go to it with varying degrees of submission? Is the Bible any less the word of God, or is it errant because someone didn't do their exegesis right? Is it any less God's sayso because someone went to it more with the intent to look for evidence of their own beliefs or to spiritualize sin? So, one needs to ask whether the Bible really vulnerable to misinterpretation, or whether we vulnerable to insubordination.

I believe I have read where those who had influence in historical times (ie when being illiterate was common) were able to entice monks who recorded the bible to, in a sense, tweak a few things in their favor. That was my point.


But what does God do? Does God impose law on them? THey may feel more comfortable to have your affirmation right now, but what happens when they face judgment and thought it was okay? The bottom line is, who is the authority-man or God.

Wiccans or any other non-christians don't need my supposed 'affirmation' and I'm certain they aren't reading this and going "phew, SHE thinks it's ok, so I can continue on doing what I'm doing" ...what happens when they face judgement is between them and God and none of my business whatsoever. I have my own salvation to worry about, and that's not anyone else's business either. Regardless of if the bible says it is wrong and if I agree or disagree with that, I simply respect their right to believe differently than me and make the choice not to judge. Most trespasses made against God's laws are between the trespassers and Himself, not me, and in all honesty, it doesn't really matter if I think it's right or wrong

Friend, I think you need to find out what a Christian is before you make this kind of assertion. Read your Bible end to end. A Christian is a follwer of Christ, who strongly denounced man's supposed authority. No wiccan can be in anywise considered this.

With all due respect, I've been a Christian in one form or another all my life, please do not 'revoke' my Christianity because you and I are not of the same opinion. I am simply stating my opinion, and you and anyone else is free to disagree. That is all.

Well, it's important because no one can claim to be a Christian unless they truly believe God's word is inerrant. The whole basis for your faith has been brought into question. Jesus is Savior, andLord.

I do believe Jesus is Savior and Lord, but I do not believe it blindly, I reserve the ability to constantly ponder my beliefs and question them, but I will not abandon them, sorry.[/B]

 

[Myah]

I believe that while Wicca has good teachings on some areas of morality (accepting that harming others is generally wrong is already better than nothing), it falls short of the standard God has given us and calls us to follow.

It's not really a teaching..it more of a way of life. But if you look at it, harm none, encompasses a few of the Ten Commandments. "Thou shalt not murder." That's a given. "Thou shalt not lie " To me, lying is harmful to another, as much as it is to me. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" Some Wiccans are iffy about this one, but I'm a monogamous kinda person, so it works, at least for me.
_

Each person needs a different set of morals they follow. I don't think that there is anything wrong Christianity's basic moral tenets, though they are a bit too oppressive for me personally. Like I've said before, to each their own.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Transient, this isn't about getting you to agree with me; rather, it's about magnifying and affirming the complete authority of God. Because no one can affirm a false religion and be a Christian. For it is written:

Galatians 5


5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

5:20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

5:21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This doesn't flatter man's sense of autonomy and self-authority, but the truth is, he never had any.

So, the question now is, what does this have to do with us if someone chooses a false religion?

It is written:

Matthew 5:13-16

5:13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

5:14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

5:15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, F9 but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

5:16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Also:

Proverbs 11:30

11:30The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

 

[Lifesaver]

We disagree, Myah.
Basically, you're saying that if someone says harming none is too opressive for them, then they are right in following their own code, where killing, lying and deceiving are all fair play.

Rather, what is wrong is wrong regardless of someone knowing or not that it is so.

 

[transientlife]

If someone chooses outside of Christianity as their religion then that's their business, their choice, not mine. I'm a christian, I practice Christianity. Do I wish all people were Christians? Yeah I guess it would make so many things easier if everyone believed, but in reality that's never going to happen (and other religions are quite fascinating and interesting to read up on, IMO). In the end, our mistakes are between us and God. That's all. I'm not saying at all that God has little or no authority, if He says something is wrong, then it must be wrong (whether or not I 'agree' with it, not like he'd change his opinion because we don't agree with him )- but I'm simply saying I respect another's choice to believe what they want regardless, it is their choice and a result of the free will we are given. As long as us as Christians believe that Jesus is THE WAY and THE TRUTH - then who really cares what everyone else thinks? Same with Wicca...they'll believe what they want regardless of outside opinions...same can be said for every belief. I have no problems with any belief that promotes the "do no harm" principle.

 

[Myah]

We disagree, Myah.
Basically, you're saying that if someone says harming none is too opressive for them, then they are right in following their own code, where killing, lying and deceiving are all fair play.

Rather, what is wrong is wrong regardless of someone knowing or not that it is so.

No...that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that the Christian dogmatic law is too oppressive for me . If someone decides that "Harm none" isn't what they desire to follow, then yes, they should attempt to find a moral base in another path.

I'm not saying that those actions are right at all, but if someone decides to go ahead and take that path, then they have to bear the responsibilities and consequences. Not everyone has the same idea of what is right, however. What may be considered wrong by you because of your faith, may not be thought of in the same manner as another. Nothing is black or white, but instead different shades of grey.

 

[Lifesaver]

No...that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that the Christian dogmatic law is too oppressive for me . If someone decides that "Harm none" isn't what they desire to follow, then yes, they should attempt to find a moral base in another path.

Exactly. And that's where we disagree.
Even if someone thinks doing what is right is too opressive, they should do it. That's what I think.

I'm not saying that those actions are right at all, but if someone decides to go ahead and take that path, then they have to bear the responsibilities and consequences.

So right and wrong do exist independent of our knowledge and opinion, don't they?

Not everyone has the same idea of what is right, however. What may be considered wrong by you because of your faith, may not be thought of in the same manner as another. Nothing is black or white, but instead different shades of grey.

If different shades of gray exist, that's because the absolutes black and white also exist.

Ultimately, you must make up your mind: is right and wrong a matter of personal opinion or do they exist regardless of personal opinion?

No "middle ground" exists between the two.