Is being Wiccan moral?

[Havoc]

God told me the same thing Whitehorse. That's enough authority.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

And, how do you know it was God?

 

[Arikay]

Easy, the "god" of god told me, I think thats a better authority than what you have.

So, whitehorse, how do you know what you say comes from god?
I think we all should know what the final authority is when it comes to this discusion, but I get the feeling some don't.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

If a Christian ever said, "God just told me," it would be very suspect. Because this isn't subject to the scrutiny of God's revealed will through the authority of His word. So, how do you know it was God who told you? Because if that didn't really happen, then it isn't the truth.

We should know who the authority is. So, who do you say it is?

 

[Arikay]

Which is odd because I have heard many christians say "the holyspirit (god) guided my reading (interpretation) of the bible." in other words "god just told me (in a round about way)."

The final authority is always ourselves. Unless we are being controlled by something else, we are Always the final authority for what we accept and what we don't, we are the final authority on what we think is truth and what we think isn't, no matter where we think this information comes from.

If a Christian ever said, "God just told me," it would be very suspect. Because this isn't subject to the scrutiny of God's revealed will through the authority of His word. So, how do you know it was God who told you? Because if that didn't really happen, then it isn't the truth.

We should know who the authority is. So, who do you say it is?

 

[Havoc]

And, how do you know it was God?

Faith.

Your faith is in a book you can't prove.

My faith is in the words the Divine speaks to me.

 

[Havoc]

If a Christian ever said, "God just told me," it would be very suspect. Because this isn't subject to the scrutiny of God's revealed will through the authority of His word. So, how do you know it was God who told you? Because if that didn't really happen, then it isn't the truth.

We should know who the authority is. So, who do you say it is?

God doesn't believe in your Bible, so it can hardly be an authority.

You want us all to bow to your claim of biblical authority and then expect us to justify our beliefs against your book. You first show that your book IS God's word and then we'll start again, ok? Until then you're argueing the fallacy of appeal to authority.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Havoc, by what authority do you say God doesn't believe in "my" Bible? You're attacking this authority, but you cannot say by what authority you do so. After you answer this, I will show you on what basis we can tell that the Bible is indeed God's word.

Moreover, you're saying I'm trying to force you into my personal beliefs when I'm the only one here who isn't using myself as the authority. *shrug*

 

[ACougar]

What is immoral about making the best decision we can? Following your heart and using your own best judgement? You claim not to use yourself as the authority, I can only assume this is because you have consented to hand over your authority to someone or something else. You have faith, I have faith, Havok I assume has faith, and yet some of us still maintain authority over our lives... you think that's a bad thing? I follow my heart, listen to the advice of spirits who council me, worship the Great Mother and her Horned Consort. The reason I can do all this is because the Gods and spirits are within me as well as without. Unlike Havok I do believe that the Bible is too a limmited extent Gods word, the sermon on the mount is an excellent example of this. You dón't need to be a Christian to love Jesus, or to try to follow his example in as much as you are able. I speak on my own authority, as my own authority, I who am one with all things.

Havoc, by what authority do you say God doesn't believe in "my" Bible? You're attacking this authority, but you cannot say by what authority you do so. After you answer this, I will show you on what basis we can tell that the Bible is indeed God's word.

Moreover, you're saying I'm trying to force you into my personal beliefs when I'm the only one here who isn't using myself as the authority. *shrug*

 

[Havoc]

Havoc, by what authority do you say God doesn't believe in "my" Bible? You're attacking this authority, but you cannot say by what authority you do so. After you answer this, I will show you on what basis we can tell that the Bible is indeed God's word.

Moreover, you're saying I'm trying to force you into my personal beliefs when I'm the only one here who isn't using myself as the authority. *shrug*

I'm using the authority of the Word of God. God told me Himself.

Now if you can show some objective evidence that your Bible is, in fact, the word of God, then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then you are simply using the well known "fallacy of appeal to authority" ie appealing to an authority you cannot show is an authority.

Your authority is no more verifiable than is mine, which means you have no basis for insisting that we use biblical "authority" as a measure stick for our beliefs. Your insistence that we prove that our beliefs be measured against "authority" is fallacious until you can show that your authority is valid.

But we've been through this before. You merely use circular arguements and insist on them being the basis by which we measure truth. A debate doesn't work that way, although a fallacy might.

So lets see what you've got to show as a basis we can tell that the Bible is indeed God's word. Something tells me it's nothing we havn't seen before, or anything that has objective evidence to back it up.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I'm using the authority of the Word of God. God told me Himself.

Well, if this is authority enough for you, then you have to accept God's written word. How do I know you're not making this up? And, in fact, if we can be real for a minute, you know in your heart you *are* making it up.

Now if you can show some objective evidence that your Bible is, in fact, the word of God, then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then you are simply using the well known "fallacy of appeal to authority" ie appealing to an authority you cannot show is an authority.

Using debate words like "fallacy" to make it appear that it is technical, proven, or a known argument is bogus debate. And, while you have no authority whatsoever, you demand greater proof from me. So give the evidence you expect from others. So, since I have a greater and substantive authority that you cannot produce, you really don't have a leg to stand on. And, after you prove your authority even exists, as I can prove the Bible exists, I will then proceed to show you that it truly is the word of God. But, let's get rid of those double standards first.

Your authority is no more verifiable than is mine, which means you have no basis for insisting that we use biblical "authority" as a measure stick for our beliefs. Your insistence that we prove that our beliefs be measured against "authority" is fallacious until you can show that your authority is valid.

Nice diversion, but you still haven't proven your apprently greater and more substantive authority.

But we've been through this before. You merely use circular arguements and insist on them being the basis by which we measure truth. A debate doesn't work that way, although a fallacy might.

And you still haven't come up with an answer. That's why it's circular. If you could, it would have been settled at that point.

So lets see what you've got to show as a basis we can tell that the Bible is indeed God's word. Something tells me it's nothing we havn't seen before, or anything that has objective evidence to back it up.

Well, you still haven't given any evidence for divine authority. Once you do that, I will gladly do so.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Easy, the "god" of god told me, I think thats a better authority than what you have.

So, whitehorse, how do you know what you say comes from god?
I think we all should know what the final authority is when it comes to this discusion, but I get the feeling some don't.

First ptove your authority isn't just something you made up out of your own head, and once we have those double standards cleared up, I will proceed.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Which is odd because I have heard many christians say "the holyspirit (god) guided my reading (interpretation) of the bible." in other words "god just told me (in a round about way)."

Ah...so the Bible is what they're really appealing to. So we *are* using something outside ourselves.

The final authority is always ourselves.

This is the single most honest statement I have yet seen from a nonChristian. I wish I had an award to give you for it, because the honesty is very, very refreshing.

That said, I will address the issue. How can man be the authority over God? And, we have not seen God with temporal eyes, so who can claim to know the truth about Him, aside from God giving it Himself? God is the authority. Man's speculations are only that. Man had no say in his birth. No say in the hour of his departing. No say in what God does with what He made. He alone has the power and the glory. Therefore, man is dismally unqualified.

Unless we are being controlled by something else, we are Always the final authority for what we accept and what we don't, we are the final authority on what we think is truth and what we think isn't, no matter where we think this information comes from.

Well, we do make choices, but that doesn't make us the authority. Our arms are too short to box with God, as the saying goes. We can ignore the truth, for a time. But it won't make the truth go away. We had no say in our own creation. We were created, therefore, for the purpose of Another. And we are subject to His authority, even if He lets us think we can buck it for a time.

 

[Havoc]

First ptove your authority isn't just something you made up out of your own head, and once we have those double standards cleared up, I will proceed.

Nice try. Since you made the first claim of authority, you should rightfully go first.

 

[Havoc]

Ah...so the Bible is what they're really appealing to. So we *are* using something outside ourselves.



This is the single most honest statement I have yet seen from a nonChristian. I wish I had an award to give you for it, because the honesty is very, very refreshing.

That said, I will address the issue. How can man be the authority over God? And, we have not seen God with temporal eyes, so who can claim to know the truth about Him, aside from God giving it Himself? God is the authority. Man's speculations are only that. Man had no say in his birth. No say in the hour of his departing. No say in what God does with what He made. He alone has the power and the glory. Therefore, man is dismally unqualified.



Well, we do make choices, but that doesn't make us the authority. Our arms are too short to box with God, as the saying goes. We can ignore the truth, for a time. But it won't make the truth go away. We had no say in our own creation. We were created, therefore, for the purpose of Another. And we are subject to His authority, even if He lets us think we can buck it for a time.

Nice rhetoric, but all speculation. Even if you can show that there is such a thing as "God Given", you would still have to show that your version is the right one, and not every other claim of Divine Revelation out there.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Nice try. Since you made the first claim of authority, you should rightfully go first.

I'm working to make the arguments less..."circular." So please provide the proof you require of others: that you have any right whatsoever to say that what you believe is from God, and I will gladly provide the indications you require of me. All I ask is that you be able to do the same.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Nice rhetoric, but all speculation. Even if you can show that there is such a thing as "God Given", you would still have to show that your version is the right one, and not every other claim of Divine Revelation out there.

Guess what-the Lord can do that through me. I'm just waiting for us to be on even ground here. Fair enough?

 

[Havoc]

I'm working to make the arguments less..."circular." So please provide the proof you require of others: that you have any right whatsoever to say that what you believe is from God, and I will gladly provide the indications you require of me. All I ask is that you be able to do the same.

I guarantee that if you can show objectively and with substantive evidence that your Bible is indeed the word of God, I will do the same.

 

[Arikay]

"First prove your authority isn't just something you made up out of your own head, and once we have those double standards cleared up, I will proceed."

Ok, as a taoist I believe that if there is a god, he is not above the tao, he is within the tao. Of course, you don't believe what I do and I don't believe what you do, so we are kind of at a stand off.


You are right, we don't have arms long enough to box in god, when it comes to the universe or when it comes to total truth god might be the final authority. But when it comes to this thread, all information is filtered through us, so, when it comes to what information is posted, we become the final authority on what we think is gods word or gods meaning.

Ah...so the Bible is what they're really appealing to. So we *are* using something outside ourselves.



This is the single most honest statement I have yet seen from a nonChristian. I wish I had an award to give you for it, because the honesty is very, very refreshing.

That said, I will address the issue. How can man be the authority over God? And, we have not seen God with temporal eyes, so who can claim to know the truth about Him, aside from God giving it Himself? God is the authority. Man's speculations are only that. Man had no say in his birth. No say in the hour of his departing. No say in what God does with what He made. He alone has the power and the glory. Therefore, man is dismally unqualified.



Well, we do make choices, but that doesn't make us the authority. Our arms are too short to box with God, as the saying goes. We can ignore the truth, for a time. But it won't make the truth go away. We had no say in our own creation. We were created, therefore, for the purpose of Another. And we are subject to His authority, even if He lets us think we can buck it for a time.

 

[Philosopher Odds]

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think it's immoral at all. I've got a book called "Spells for Teenage Witches", and I see no signs of Satanic stuff in it at all.

I'm thinking that I might even become a Wiccan. *hears some Christian people begin to fret wildly*

Haha..