Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

[Ttalkkugjil]

Well, you're married... Are you saying you knew what you were getting into? That's pretty funny. Maybe you've only been married for a week? lol

I didn't know experientially, however I certainly did have knowledge. Both from studying the sacred text and thriugh observing the marriages of family and friends.

The truth is, there is very little information in the Bible about spiritual gifts and how they operate.

All that we need to know is truly revealed to us in the Bible.

 

[Hillsage]

So your solution is to ban tongues? Is that "correct"?

That's exactly what happens at the church they obviously go to. They justify doing so by waving the verse 40 flag in our face. But they turn a blind eye to the verse before their 'litmus' which they think means we are wrong.

1CO 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

My experience is, the only time everyone speaking in tongues wasn't 'in order' is when it offended some "ungifted/unlearned" one who snuck in unawares. One who wants to judge that which they don't have the capacity to judge correctly. Are there errors in the Crazimatic movement? Absolutely, just like there's spiritual error with those who are so fundamental they're no spiritual fun they're so mental.

It's kind of hard to sing corporately in psalms, hymns and SPIRITUAL SONGS without anybody else hearing tongues.

EPH 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,

 

[Saint Steven]

All that we need to know is truly revealed to us in the Bible.

Sure.
It reminds me of those survivor situations. A person dropped off in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a pocket knife. To one who knows survival techniques, that is all that is needed. But after a week of that, they want to get back to real life.

Why settle for a pocket knife when you could live in a palace?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Sure.
It reminds me of those survivor situations. A person dropped off in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a pocket knife. To one who knows survival techniques, that is all that is needed. But after a week of that, they want to get back to real life.

Why settle for a pocket knife when you could live in a palace?

An interesting view of the Bible and of extra-biblical notions which I do not share. For me, the Bible comes before any human extra-biblical feeling.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's exactly what happens at the church they obviously go to. They justify doing so by waving the verse 40 flag in our face. But they turn a blind eye to the verse before their 'litmus' which they think means we are wrong.

What they are doing would be like a Doctor telling a pregnant woman, "Your baby's heartbeat is slightly elevated, you need an abortion."

 

[Saint Steven]

An interesting view of the Bible and of extra-biblical notions which I do not share. For me, the Bible comes before any human extra-biblical feeling.

What about these things? Is this what you call "extra-biblical notions"?

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.

1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

 

[Saint Steven]

An interesting view of the Bible and of extra-biblical notions which I do not share. For me, the Bible comes before any human extra-biblical feeling.

Yes, "Bible comes before"... BEFORE !!! (then what?)
Everything must agree with the Bible. But what are you doing? You don't even check.
You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Hillsage]

What version of the bible are you using?
I see no mention of "sound" in verse 6 in the KJV.
"4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,..."
What was "noised abroad" was the news of their speaking in the home languages of the visitors.

KJV ACT 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

RSV ACT 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

NAS ACT 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

NIV ACT 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Prayer tongues from their spirits made a "sound/noise" which was heard first. That draws a crowd to where they were....then the crowd hears the "confounded/bewildering" Holy Spirit 'gift of tongues' in their own languages of men. Then all the "ungifted/unlearned" unspiritual ones start yelling they're acting like "drunks".

1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

That's pretty much what happened on Pentecost. The "whole church assembled and ALL spoke in tongues"...then the "ungifted" said "you are mad....speaking gibberish, babble and now the new one I've not heard before....GABBERING.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

What about these things? Is this what you call "extra-biblical notions"?

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.

1 Corinthians 14:3
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

John defends the trustworthiness of his record. He knows that his witness is true. What John has recorded is sufficient for his purpose and that of the Spirit, namely, to teach Christ's deity and redemption, that all that trust in him might have everlasting life.

Paul taught the doctrine to candidates for admission into the Church by mouth's word, and accompanied this teaching with reference to the OT. Thus Timothy had a foundation under his feet concerning the doctrine which he'd heard from Paul. He could pass on the doctrine which he'd received without hesitation. He could instruct people, preparing them for ministry. Such people as have a grasp, a knowledge of the doctrines as taught by Paul, and are faithful, may be chosen as ministers. Paul's words imply an aptitude to teach. Having knowledge is necessary for s teacher to be able to impart the doctrine to others in teaching's form. To this end the Spirit herself must be the teacher of the Church's teachers.

Paul makes no concessions to the Corinthians. He knows that prophecy is to be preferred over tongues. Greater are they that prophesy than they that speak with tongues. They have a position of greater dignity, unless they that speak with tongues has the gift of interpretation, so that the people may grasp them and the church so be edifified.

 

[Saint Steven]

KJV ACT 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

RSV ACT 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

NAS ACT 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

NIV ACT 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Prayer tongues from their spirits made a "sound/noise" which was heard first. That draws a crowd to where they were....then the crowd hears the "confounded/bewildering" Holy Spirit 'gift of tongues' in their own languages of men. Then all the "ungifted/unlearned" unspiritual ones start yelling they're acting like "drunks".

1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

That's pretty much what happened on Pentecost. The "whole church assembled and ALL spoke in tongues"...then the "ungifted" said "you are mad....speaking gibberish, babble and now the new one I've not heard before....GABBERING.

That's a very interesting and revealing point.
A general noise, or commotion was first heard, which attracted a crowd. They heard the speaking in tongues. And then they recognized their own languages in the mix.

The theory of "supernatural hearing" is a denial that they spoke in OTHER tongues.

Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

 

[Saint Steven]

John defends the trustworthiness of his record. He knows that his witness is true. What John has recorded is sufficient for his purpose and that of the Spirit, namely, to teach Christ's deity and redemption, that all that trust in him might have everlasting life.

Do you deny that the Holy Spirit teaching us is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Do you deny that the Holy Spirit teaching us is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

The Spirit of God can certainly teach us things. She will never go against that which she inspired the authors of the Bible to write.

 

[Hillsage]

That's a very interesting and revealing point.
A general noise, or commotion was first heard, which attracted a crowd. They heard the speaking in tongues. And then they recognized their own languages in the mix.

The theory of "supernatural hearing" is a denial that they spoke in OTHER tongues.

Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

As I've shared with you before, it is unfortunate that the translators capitalized "holy spirit" and "spirit" over 52 times in the NT. And this is one of those times. It was 'holy spirit power' FROM the Holy Spirit which was poured upon them and touching the spirits of the believers. Which led to the releasing of their spirit's prayer tongue. But, when the Greek was turned into modern translations by "ungifted/unlearned" translators...bad capitalization is what happened. And that is what has led to so much bad theology concerning this whole doctrinal mess we're discussing today.

But we are way off subject for the thread. OK, I'm really going to stop and go to church now.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Spirit of God can certainly teach us things. She will never go against that which she inspired the authors of the Bible to write.

We are in agreement on that point. Except for the "she" part. (unbiblical)
The Spirit, not just the word, guides us into all truth. And tells us what is to come. (prophecy)

John 16:12-14
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

We are in agreement on that point. Except for the "she" part. (unbiblical)
The Spirit, not just the word, guides us into all truth. And tells us what is to come. (prophecy)

John 16:12-14
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.

The disciples needed instruction in order to grasp the instruction which they'd received from Jesus. This would be provided for by the Spirit, whose function would be truth's teaching.

She'll teach them. She'll bring them into the truth, make them familiar with it, let them grasp the truth, have them realize God's grace in Jesus. In doing this, she won't display an independent activity.

The relation between the Godhead's persons is unity. The Spirit can and will lead the believers into truth, because she'll speak what she's heard in the Godhead. She'll speak the Trinity's words as such.

The Spirit wants to be with and in the Word, and through it lead us into truth, keeps us against lies, and helps us conquer in trials. So she reveals God.

She'll tell of things to come. The future salvation also belongs to God. Jesus' coming to judge, the consummation of the redemption in God's Kingdom. In regard to these the Spirit will give the information.

In doing so, her work will be for Jesus, since the truth which she'll reveal she'll receive from Jesus for preaching. By picturing Jesus before believers, the Spirit gives to Jesus the glory which is due him.

In taking her doctrine from Jesus, the Spirit receives her doctrine from God, for since they've the Godhead in common, they've also the divine knowledge in common.

Christ here makes a statement that couldn't be made by a mere man. "All that God has," he says, "is Mine." He has power over it, for he and God have everything in common.

The Spirit has the Godhead to draw from, in the believers' interest. That's the Spirit's work for and in the believers, that she teaches them to know Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

The disciples needed instruction in order to grasp the instruction which they'd received from Jesus. This would be provided for by the Spirit, whose function would be truth's teaching.

Wow. Are you claiming the instruction from Jesus was somehow deficient? How come? Was he not a good teacher in your opinion?

So, if the Spirit was teaching the truth, what are you claiming about Jesus' teaching?


You still haven't explained how the Bible stands on its own without any manifestation of the Holy Spirit to connect with our spirit. The Spirit guides us into truth. The Spirit teaches us all things and reminds us of what Christ said.

 

[Saint Steven]

She'll teach them. She'll bring them into the truth, make them familiar with it, let them grasp the truth, have them realize God's grace in Jesus. In doing this, she won't display an independent activity.

She who?
Why are you calling the Holy Spirit "she"? (unbiblical)

 

[Hillsage]

She who?
Why are you calling the Holy Spirit "she"? (unbiblical)

Maybe it's because he doesn't know the difference between RUWACH/spirit being feminine in the Hebrew OT and PNEUMA/spirit being neuter in the Greek NT.

He probably also doesn't know that it is a fundamental law of Greek Grammar without exception that the 'definite article' the 'pronoun' and the 'adjective' must all agree in gender with the noun. A fact which pertains to the Greek New Testament.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Wow. Are you claiming the instruction from Jesus was somehow deficient? How come? Was he not a good teacher in your opinion?

So, if the Spirit was teaching the truth, what are you claiming about Jesus' teaching?

Hmm... I was talking about a certain point in the biblical narrative Steven, but then you know that.

The Spirit guides us into truth. The Spirit teaches us all things and reminds us of what Christ said.

Agreed.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Maybe it's because he doesn't know the difference between RUWACH/spirit being feminine in the Hebrew OT and PNEUMA/spirit being neuter in the Greek NT.

He probably also doesn't know that it is a fundamental law of Greek Grammar without exception that the 'definite article' the 'pronoun' and the 'adjective' must all agree in gender with the noun. A fact which pertains to the Greek New Testament.

It's almost like he didn't study Koine, amongst other things, when he earned his Master of Divinity degree.