Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[twhite982]

I was simply saying that beleiving is having faith and repenting.

I am sorry but if I trully believe in my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, and confess with my mouth that he is Lord, then for some reason get hit by a bus and die 5 mins later, that I will go to heaven.

For we have salvation through our faith, not by our works, and bapisim my friend, is a work and nothing more then simply showing the rest of the world that you are saved, which is simply a commandment.

Yes a commandment is a big thing, but however, if I am saved, but I lie, I am not going to hell for the simple fact I am forgiven.

I am willing to say that it's the same thing as baptisim. If I have accepted christ into my heart, but choose to not be baptised for whatever reason, then I am simply breaking a commandment, which is forgiven.

By the way, I was saved nearly 3 years ago and wasn't baptised till 7 months ago. The first 2 1/2 years, I felt God, and he did work in my life.

When I was baptised, nothing really changed, I got a bit wet and my family knew I was serious about my faith, and they asked questions and were more invovled with my beliefes, but is wasn't much of anything.

So are you saying that if I was killed a day before my baptisim that I would of gone to hell? Even if I was producing fruit? (leading people to Christ)? I think not.

and the context of EVERY scripture that I have seen posted is taken out of context one way or another and can be read a different way.

Sorry been I read "Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, then you shall be SAVED" I beleive it means just that.

I agree with alot of what you've said.
Works with out faith is dead.
And faith without doing anything with that faith, in my view can't really be faith.

Works in and of themselves do nothing. They are done for a reason because of the one we have placed our faith in prior to do anything. We notice how good God is in other people's lives and what that same experience for our selves. It takes work to develop that testimony and faith in Jesus.
The Christian life isn't just warm feelings and great quotes!
There is much to do. To progress in our walk with the Lord. We are asked to sacrifice much. But I believe that faith can only come when we sacrifice our own will for that of the Father. This isn't a sign on the dotted line type of agreement it is a eternal commitment.

If you are confident in what you believe and can honestly say within your heart that you have done what is required of you by your Saviour then I say don't change anything.

For its what you carry in your heart, not in your head that will sustain you when you times of trial comes.

TW

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

He was justified by both!!

TW

James 2:18 yea a man may say how is man faith justified by his works

Romans 4:5 But to him the worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness


please go read all the post please we have gone over and over this

thanks for your understanding

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I agree with alot of what you've said.
Works with out faith is dead.
And faith without doing anything with that faith, in my view can't really be faith.

Works in and of themselves do nothing. They are done for a reason because of the one we have placed our faith in prior to do anything. We notice how good God is in other people's lives and what that same experience for our selves. It takes work to develop that testimony and faith in Jesus.
The Christian life isn't just warm feelings and great quotes!
There is much to do. To progress in our walk with the Lord. We are asked to sacrifice much. But I believe that faith can only come when we sacrifice our own will for that of the Father. This isn't a sign on the dotted line type of agreement it is a eternal commitment.

If you are confident in what you believe and can honestly say within your heart that you have done what is required of you by your Saviour then I say don't change anything.

For its what you carry in your heart, not in your head that will sustain you when you times of trial comes.

TW

Or he is some body in Matt 7:21-23 I pray that you are not

 

[twhite982]

James 2:18 yea a man may say how is man faith justified by his works

Romans 4:5 But to him the worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness


please go read all the post please we have gone over and over this

thanks for your understanding

I have read most of the post here.
When I read the Bible I take all scripture into account.

So it seems that Paul says that by faith man is justified, not by the law of Moses.

And James is saying that faith without works is dead.

James isn't saying faith is un-important!

James 18:18-20
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


I am still saying you can't have 1 without the other. They are a pair.

TW

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

James 2:18 if a man says prove your faith ...gotta have works other wise a man will justify that he does not need God

However work are not nessessary Romans 4:5 for salvation

If a man Keeps being disobeidant Heb 12:6-11

And God will bring him about to bring forth Good works

 

[twhite982]

Or he is some body in Matt 7:21-23 I pray that you are not

I think you just validated my point here

Matt 7:21-23
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those people Jesus were talking about were doing many good things, but not with true faith in him.
Also the point of not just lip confession, but "he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

I think we might be saying the same thing here!
TW

 

[twhite982]

James 2:18 if a man says prove your faith ...gotta have works other wise a man will justify that he does not need God

However work are not nessessary Romans 4:5 for salvation

If a man Keeps being disobeidant Heb 12:6-11

And God will bring him about to bring forth Good works

I disagree with that.
As far as real faith is concerned, we need to do more than just profess. The requires actively showing that faith. This is what James is saying.

But true faith in Christ is what we need for salvation.

The 2 are still intermixed.
James says he shows his faith by demonstrating his love for God and man.

This is what I am saying.
Its not easy believism!!
TW

 

[twhite982]

All the prophets and apostles talk about a time of trials and testing. They talk about demonstrating our faith in love.

Many times Isreal was rebuked for only showing faith on the exterior through observance of the law.

Jesus explains the higher law.

The law says that he who commiteth adultery is commiting sin.
Jesus doesn't get rid of this, but adds the higher law. He that lust after a woman hath already commited adultery with her in his heart.

Do you think we can confess Jesus and be saved then commit adultery and still claim we are saved.
The are still things we need to be subject to to demonstrate that we have faith. We don't demonstrate this to anyone, but ourselves. God already know what we will do.

TW

 

[heb12-2]

I was simply saying that beleiving is having faith and repenting.

But you didn't answer any of my arguments that I backed up with scripture. Why does "truly believing" end with faith and repentance? or do you believe it ends with faith + repentance + confession? That still is not faith ONLY, is it?

I am sorry but if I trully believe in my heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, and confess with my mouth that he is Lord, then for some reason get hit by a bus and die 5 mins later, that I will go to heaven.

That is purely an emotional argument with no scripture. If you want to base the truth upon hypothetical situations then please deal with this scenario: What if you are on your way to hear preaching and "then for some reason get hit by a bus and die 5 mins later", but don't get to hear the sermon in order to believe and confess. Will you go to heaven then? But you were on your way to have faith, right? You would have believed if you could have only got to hear the sermon. Do you loosen God's requirement for faith for this person (Jn. 8:24)? Why do you loosen God's requirement for baptism? Situations don't change the truth.

For we have salvation through our faith, not by our works, and bapisim my friend, is a work and nothing more then simply showing the rest of the world that you are saved.

[size=+2]Please show the scripture that says baptism is a work of merit![/size]
And please show why you say baptism is a work, but faith is not.

[size=+2]There is not a single passage in ALL the Bible that even hints at the idea that Baptism is "simply showing the rest of the world that you are saved."[/size]

That is simply a phrase that many have heard so many times that they blindly accept it as truth without seeing it in the scriptures. Test what you've been taught now. Where does the Bible say it? Can you find me one scripture?

Yes a commandment is a big thing, but however, if I am saved, but I lie, I am not going to hell for the simple fact I am forgiven.

Book, chapter, and verse, pleas? Where do you read that? Here's one I found:
"ALL liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Re 21:8).

I am willing to say that it's the same thing as baptisim. If I have accepted christ into my heart, but choose to not be baptised for whatever reason, then I am simply breaking a commandment, which is forgiven.

Why are you "willing" to change the scripture?
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Mt 7:21).

By the way, I was saved nearly 3 years ago and wasn't baptised till 7 months ago. The first 2 1/2 years, I felt God, and he did work in my life.

Bible order: believe...baptized...saved (Mk. 16:16)
Your order: believe...saved...baptized

Ac. 22:16, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Here's your version: "And now what's the hurry? Just wait 3 years and be baptized, because your sins are already washed away"

Had Saul "felt God" before he was baptized in order to wash away his sins? Sure enough, he even saw Jesus himself, and then was blinded for 3 days. Do you think he "felt God"? But was he saved? Please cite the book, chapter, and verse, that says a feeling is proof of salvation.

When I was baptised, nothing really changed, I got a bit wet and my family knew I was serious about my faith, and they asked questions and were more invovled with my beliefes, but is wasn't much of anything.

It sounds like you still haven't changed. Why not repent of rejecting God's commands, and be baptized scripturally (Ac. 19:5)?

So are you saying that if I was killed a day before my baptisim that I would of gone to hell? Even if I was producing fruit? (leading people to Christ)? I think not.

That's just emotional argumentation again, no scripture. "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:" (Mt 3:8). Why not repent of your disobedience to scriptural baptism?

and the context of EVERY scripture that I have seen posted is taken out of context one way or another and can be read a different way.

Please show HOW.

Sorry been I read "Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, then you shall be SAVED" I beleive it means just that.

But "have ye not read" these:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******." (Mk 16:16).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Ac 2:38).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Ac 22:16).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Ga 3:27).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Ro 6:3-4).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Pe 3:21).

Why don't you believe this verse "means just that"?

 

[heb12-2]

jAMES 2:21-24 Was not Abraham our Father justified by works, when he had offered Issac his son upon the altar. 22 seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made mature? 23 And the scripture was fullfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Your the one that is having a hard time with this verse, not me.

Gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country[did in vs4], and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house[Gen 11:32 father died], unto a land that I[God] will show thee.

two points

#1 get away from kindred Gen 12:4-5 Abram took Lot
#2 God was showing him if he obeyed when.....Abram did not believe God till Gen 15:6 about having children but not land Gen 15:8 doubts God promise about the land

Are you trying to say that Abraham disobeyed God by taking Lot? If so, then I disagree. God was simply saying to leave his home land where is family was. He wasn't forbidding him to take his nephew with him.

You're making a very shaky case here, and are grasping for straws. When did Abraham depart (Gen. 12:4)? That's before Chapter 15,and you're claiming that he didn't believe until chapter 15? I really don't see your point.

Big difference between Promise and Covenant

Promise on land Gen 12:7 .....fulfilled in Josh 21:43

Covenant on land Gen 15:18-21.....not yet but will in millial Kingdom

The gaining of the land has been fulfilled. The keeping of the land was conditional upon their continued obedience (Deut. 28:58, 63). I disagree with your statement about the kingdom, but don't change the subject

Back on track

No, you jumped the track and got on a different train.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1 cor 1:19 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Gentiles seek after wisdom.......................

 

[heb12-2]

I said, "We apply the Blood in Baptism"

You said:

I don't believe that...simply put.

Then how do you deal with Rom. 6?

WE don't ever apply the blood ourselves through anything. Jesus applies the blood to our hearts... not us.

I believe that it is through faith not baptism.

Read your quote above and then read every word of this scripture very carefully:
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:12).

When we are baptized, we are laying ourselves on God's operating table, for him to circumcise our hearts. God is the operator in Baptism. We simply submit to him and put our trust in his hands to do the cleansing.

You keep missing the point that baptism is simply a requirement like faith is. There is nothing about it whatsoever that nullifies God's grace, or Christ's blood.

Your answer to the hyssop example doesn't make sense.

Does the Lord say "when He sees the blood spread with the hyssop on the lintel and on the two doorposts" or "when He sees the blood"?

You are again missing the point, that the blood saved them, but it was APPLIED with hyssop. Do you believe it would have been acceptable to have applied the blood in a different manner than directed? That's the issue. You didn't answer it.

That's on a side note: here's the real interesting thing. What is hyssop? According to my online dictionary :

1 : a plant used in purificatory sprinkling rites by the ancient Hebrews
2 : a European mint (Hyssopus officinalis) that has highly aromatic and pungent leaves and is sometimes used as a potherb

A plant. Not water. A plant. And a tree is a plant. The cross was made of wood from a tree. The cross was made of a plant!!

That information may be "interesting" but it has NOTHING to do with the subject. You're arguing by association of what each is made out of? Are you saying that purely for the reason that the cross and hyssop are made out of plants, that baptism is out of the picture? Ludicrous

Now watch what you have just done, please. One minute, you're trying to rule out the hyssop, and the next minute you're trying to associate it with the cross? Which is it? Make up you're mind now. Does the hyssop have a similarity with the cross or not? Tell me which one it is. If it was necessary to the application of the blood like the cross is with us, then tell me how baptism is any different.

[size=+1]The blood must be applied by the cross![/size]

erhum...we're buried with Christ in Baptism (Col. 2:12; Rom. 6:3-5). The blood and the cross are written all over it!

 

[heb12-2]

In reference to John 3:5, the following stumble was made:

WATER AND THE SPIRIT ...INSTEAD OF AND PUT "EVEN"

CALLED SHARPS RULE FOR INTERPETING GREEK YOU LOOK IT UP
DON'T TAKE MY WORD

Are you "Sharp" shooting here?

The determination of the meaning of "kai" depends on the context. “even” is comparatively rare.

Winer’s cautionary word needs heeding, that “this meaning has been introduced into too many passages”

Some may think it has this sense in John 3:5, “water, even the Spirit,” , but that does not make it so. None of the word-for-word translations that I have looked at put "even" instead of "and" in John 3:5.

 

[heb12-2]

1 cor 1:19 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[size=+2]Which Cross? the cross of the thief or the cross of Christ?[/size]

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM." (Lk 24:47).

Beginning where? at the cross of the thief? NO!

Llet me help you....say, "Jerusalem". There you go.

When Jesus was about to ascend into Heaven, do you reckon this had anything to do with why Jesus told his disciples to tarry at Jeruslalem (Ac. 1:4)?

Do you reckon it had anything to do with what he said in Luke 24:47?
Please tell me how the thief had a part in it, please. Thank you.

 

[heb12-2]

[size=+2]How Was Cornelius Saved?[/size]

NOT BY:

• Good Moral Life (Ac. 10:2, 22)
• Prayer (Ac. 10:2; Cf. 9:11; 22:16)
• Faith Only (Ac. 10:33-35; 11:18)
• Angelic Appearance(Ac. 10:3-6; 11:13, 14)
• Holy Spirit Baptism(Ac. 11:14; 15:7-9)

BUT BY:

• Words (Ac. 11:14; 10:33; Rom. 1:16; 1 Pet. 1:23-25)
• Faith (Ac. 10:43; 15: 7-9; 10:34, 35; 20:21)
• Repentance (Ac. 11:18; 2:38; 3:19; 17:30)
• Baptism (Ac. 10:48; 2:38; 1 Pet. 1:18,19, 22; 3:21
• Grace (Ac. 15:11; Eph. 2:8-9; Ac. 19:5; 2:38)

Please study those verses carefully!

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Umm just tossing this in here... I know it's gonna get ate up, but just for kicks:

The thief who died on the cross with Jesus Christ was never baptised, yet Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise.

 

[heb12-2]

Umm just tossing this in here... I know it's gonna get ate up, but just for kicks:

The thief who died on the cross with Jesus Christ was never baptised, yet Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise.

Have you not read any of the posts on this thread that have discussed this issue? You can start by reading a couple posts up (#194), where I asked, "which cross? the cross of the thief or the cross of Christ?"
and deal with the scriptures I presented.

[size=+2]There are 2 arguments that NO ONE has even touched on why the thief is NOT EVEN RELEVANT to the importance of baptism![/size]

The thief has no relevancy to this discussion whatsoever. Here's why, and please deal with these scriptures:

1. If "Repentance and remission of sins" was to be preached "beginning at Jerusalem"(Lk. 24:47), please tell if the thief could have heard that preaching! Was that before or after the thief?
2. Explain whether the great commission (Mt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15-16), which included baptism, was given before or after the thief.

Please explain how the thief could have had any part in them at all! Whenever you answer those questions, you will have answered yourself concerning the thief.

Now, rather than just making assumptions, you need to deal with these passages, and either show me how I misunderstand them, or show how the thief could've obeyed them.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I see I see....


So you are the saying the thief was not held accountable? Correct? B/c he was unable to hear what was needed to be done...

P.S. I ahve read nearly all the posts, including the ones just before mine, please don't yell at me... It's not nice I simply did not understand what was being said, hence the reason I brought it up.

 

[heb12-2]

I see I see....


So you are the saying the thief was not held accountable? Correct? B/c he was unable to hear what was needed to be done...

No, I never said the thief was not held accountable. I have said that he did not live on this side of the cross. The thief could not have obeyed Rom. 6:3-6 (just read the passage and you'll see what I mean). He could not have obeyed the great commission (including being baptized), because the great commission had not yet been given (Mt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15-16).

Therefore, the importance of baptism, has nothing to do with the thief.

Do you see what I am saying?

Do you have an answer for the arguments I presented?

 

[heb12-2]

P.S. I ahve read nearly all the posts, including the ones just before mine, please don't yell at me... It's not nice I simply did not understand what was being said, hence the reason I brought it up.

I did not mean to sound like I was yelling. I put a statement in large letters so it would catch the attention in hopes that someone would answer it.

If you do not understand what I say, feel free to ask. I wouldn't want to discourage that at all.