Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[aggie03]

I'm glad that you've responded again.

It's a dedication to christ, and yes we should, but it won't cause you to go to hell. God tells us to make disciples, however thats where free will is factored in.

COuld you show me where the Bible states that baptism is nothing more than a dedication to Christ? This is something that I often hear people saying, but have yet to find a place in Scripture where it says this. I fear that this is something that has been repeated so often without question that it is just accepted as truth without being compared to the Truth.

well no christians will descend to hell, only Jesus. Jesus going into hell is metaphorical for spiritual warfare that we chirstians will be confronted with once we start ministering, and making disciples.

I understand that you believe that Christ descended into hell, what I was asking for is a particular book, chapter and verse of Scripture that says He did so.

Gods will is for us to make discoples, if we are not baptized, then it will be impossible to do so.

I don't believe that baptism has any effect on our ability to teach people. There are many groups across the country that do not baptize but they teach people every day. I believe that we are baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16). I also believe that this is necessary for our salvation (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21).

It saves them from their spiritual warfae, not from damnation.

This was your response to how you could know what the people Peter was addressing believed. I don't see how that answers the question, and I don't see how you can make the connection that baptism is only to save them from "spiritual warfare". Where is this stated specifically in the Bible?

I disagree, I beleive gifts are still prevelant. Discernment, pastor teacher, mercy, etc. are just a few to name. I beleive that
prophecy and tongues was done away with, just as it says.

I think that maybe if we addressed the reason for spiritual gifts in the New Testament that it would be helpful to demonstrate that they are no longer present.

Mark 16:20 ASV

And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.

The reason that there gifts in the first place is because the Bible as we know it today was not yet in existance. It was therefore necessary for these gifts to be present so that others might know the word that was being preached was from God. Paul speaks directly about this in 1 Corinthians 13. When the perfect, meaning complete, is here the imperfect, meaning partial, will be done away with. When the revelation of God's word is complete, the gifts will be done away with. We have the Bible, so there are no more gifts.

Romans 6:3 I have already discussed: His death was His spiritual warfare, and thus the same for us though it might not only take us to death, we will always know that God will rescue us. Nothing about salvation.

How can you harmonize this with the rest of the passage from Romans 6. Romans 6:3-18 talks about those who were baptized being baptized into the death of Christ, being raised as a new man no longer a slave to sin but a slave to righteousness. This is all about salvation - it's talking about rebirth. John 3:3 tells that unless we are born again we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Baptism is necessary for that rebirth.

Also, I thought you said Peter meant that baptism freed us from spiritual warfare, and now this passage from Romans is bringing us into it? That's very confusing, how can it be doing opposite things at the same time?

Colosons 2:12 still nothing about baptism. Infact, "raised up with Him through FAITH in the WORKING of God, raised Him from the dead"

Colossians 2:12 is all about baptism, that's the subject of the sentence:

Colossians 2:12 ASV

having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

If we are not baptized for the remission of our sins, then we cannot be buried with Christ. If we have not been buried with Christ then we cannot be raised with Him. Baptism is essential according to this verse.

If you are not working, you are dead to Christ, but there is difference between being dead, and non existant to Christ aka unknown to Christ. A dead man cannot work, just like a dead soul cannot work. Again, this is ment for those who are already saved.

I don't think this is the way those words are used in the Bible . There is a difference between being dead IN Christ and being dead TO Christ. The dead in Christ will rise and ascend into heaven with Him (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Romans 6:18 Righteousness is doing Gods work, uselessness is evil in the eyes of God, working for God is righteous. Nothing about salvation, but growin in salvation, as all your other 2 verse have been about.

All of those verses have been dealing with a rebirth, as I stated above .

The word rapture is never found in the bible either, but yet it will happen. The rapture is implied through scripture.

I don't believe there will be a "rapture" like is presented in the Left Behind series, and I don't believe that it's impled in the Scriptures - this however is another topic for another thread. Even still, I can't find and verses that even imply that baptism is nothing more than an outward sign .

It is an outward sign of inward change. We are told to be baptised to show that we are ready to minister, just as Jesus did. By saying you ware ready to minister and willing, it shows inward change.

Where does the Bible say that this is the reason we are baptized?

I personally would like to know where the verse where it says we are here to glorify God.

1 Corinthians 6:20 ASV

for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

Romans 12:1 ASV

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.

Our spiritual service to God is to gloryify God in our bodies, making them living sacrifices to Him.

Yes we are to glorify God, but that is not our ultimate purpose. God wants us to work. Jesus amnifested the word of God and had 11 disciples start churches in which they were called to go out and make disciples.
Matt 28:19 "Go out and make discples" it even states to baptize for the smiple fact that He wants workers, not lazy people, but Jesus came to save all, whether they will do the work or not.

This great commission was the chief work of the apostles. We are instructed in other places to teach the word of God, but if we are to strictly apply the great commission to ourselves, then we had better be able to make disciples of all nations. It stands however, that we are not all apostles:

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 ASV

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

These are rhetorical questions with the answer no. Because the great commission was given to the apostles and not us, that cannot be our ultimate purpose. Preaching is important, but that's not our reason for being a Christian.

Thank you for your questions, and being calm and patient with my views, as we all should.

Godbless.

I pray that I always come across as patient and willing to talk , because that is how I want to be. I thank you again for your reply, and eagerly await hearing from you again!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

More love and less zeal, heb 12:2, please, for all of us.

some times Loving means we chasteneth and scourageth
hebrews 12:6

then look at vs 11

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I'm glad that you've responded again.



COuld you show me where the Bible states that baptism is nothing more than a dedication to Christ? This is something that I often hear people saying, but have yet to find a place in Scripture where it says this. I fear that this is something that has been repeated so often without question that it is just accepted as truth without being compared to the Truth.



I understand that you believe that Christ descended into hell, what I was asking for is a particular book, chapter and verse of Scripture that says He did so.

1peter 3:19 .....preached to the spirits in prison...

where is prison

2peter 2:4 For if [but he did] God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement

I

don't believe that baptism has any effect on our ability to teach people. There are many groups across the country that do not baptize but they teach people every day. I believe that we are baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16). I also believe that this is necessary for our salvation (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21).



This was your response to how you could know what the people Peter was addressing believed. I don't see how that answers the question, and I don't see how you can make the connection that baptism is only to save them from "spiritual warfare". Where is this stated specifically in the Bible?



I think that maybe if we addressed the reason for spiritual gifts in the New Testament that it would be helpful to demonstrate that they are no longer present.

look at act 2 tongues where their was no interpetor

in 1cor 12-14 need interpetors

why....two ways to walk Gal 5:16-17

1 cor 13:8 other gifts that are no more

but 12 gifts still active

Mark 16:20 ASV

And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.

The reason that there gifts in the first place is because the Bible as we know it today was not yet in existance. It was therefore necessary for these gifts to be present so that others might know the word that was being preached was from God. Paul speaks directly about this in 1 Corinthians 13. When the perfect, meaning complete, is here the imperfect, meaning partial, will be done away with. When the revelation of God's word is complete, the gifts will be done away with. We have the Bible, so there are no more gifts.

alright you know your stuff on this it sounds like

How can you harmonize this with the rest of the passage from Romans 6. Romans 6:3-18 talks about those who were baptized being baptized into the death of Christ, being raised as a new man no longer a slave to sin but a slave to righteousness. This is all about salvation - it's talking about rebirth. John 3:3 tells that unless we are born again we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Baptism is necessary for that rebirth.

spirit baptism

Also, I thought you said Peter meant that baptism freed us from spiritual warfare, and now this passage from Romans is bringing us into it? That's very confusing, how can it be doing opposite things at the same time?

God gave us the ability to walk spiritualy but we are not completely saved only one part of the three is saved in the human[spirit, body, soul]

in matt 6:13 these were ot believer but did not have H.S.
James 1:2 it say be joyous when ye face various temptations

Colossians 2:12 is all about baptism, that's the subject of the sentence:

Colossians 2:12 ASV

having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

If we are not baptized for the remission of our sins, then we cannot be buried with Christ. If we have not been buried with Christ then we cannot be raised with Him. Baptism is essential according to this verse.

Eph 2:8 is a key verse to understand

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselfs: it is a gift from God.

grace - undeserved favor
saved - past, present, future
faith - hebrews 11:1
not of yourselves - can earn,work ect there at all eph 2:9

I don't think this is the way those words are used in the Bible . There is a difference between being dead IN Christ and being dead TO Christ. The dead in Christ will rise and ascend into heaven with Him (1 Thessalonians 4:16).



All of those verses have been dealing with a rebirth, as I stated above .



I don't believe there will be a "rapture" like is presented in the Left Behind series, and I don't believe that it's impled in the Scriptures - this however is another topic for another thread. Even still, I can't find and verses that even imply that baptism is nothing more than an outward sign .



Where does the Bible say that this is the reason we are baptized?



1 Corinthians 6:20 ASV

for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

Romans 12:1 ASV

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.

Our spiritual service to God is to gloryify God in our bodies, making them living sacrifices to Him.



This great commission was the chief work of the apostles. We are instructed in other places to teach the word of God, but if we are to strictly apply the great commission to ourselves, then we had better be able to make disciples of all nations. It stands however, that we are not all apostles:

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 ASV

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

These are rhetorical questions with the answer no. Because the great commission was given to the apostles and not us, that cannot be our ultimate purpose. Preaching is important, but that's not our reason for being a Christian.



I pray that I always come across as patient and willing to talk , because that is how I want to be. I thank you again for your reply, and eagerly await hearing from you again!

 

[aggie03]

1peter 3:19 .....preached to the spirits in prison...

where is prison

Sheol. We've talked about this before . It can be found explained in Luke 16:19-31.

2peter 2:4 For if [but he did] God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement

The word hell here refers to being imprisoned in torment. Torment just happend to be the division of Sheol where the unfaithful go.

look at act 2 tongues where their was no interpetor

There were indeed interpretors:

Acts 2:8 ASV

And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

in 1cor 12-14 need interpetors [/B]

why....two ways to walk Gal 5:16-17

1 cor 13:8 other gifts that are no more

There's only one way, because there were interpretors in Acts 2.

but 12 gifts still active

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Spiritual gifts, at the time 1 Corinthians was written, were still occuring because the full revelation was not yet available. However, now it is, so there are no longer and gifts.

spirit baptism

There is no mention of a sound like a rushing wind, or immediate gifts mentioned in this passage. Every recorded instance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament (Acts 2 & 10) these things happened.

Eph 2:8 is a key verse to understand

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselfs: it is a gift from God.

grace - undeserved favor
saved - past, present, future
faith - hebrews 11:1
not of yourselves - can earn,work ect there at all eph 2:9

We have also spent a lot of time discussing this already . You have to harmonize this with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, etc. There is nothing that is not commanded by God that you can do to "earn" your salvation. Baptism for the remission of sins is commanded by God, so it is something that must be done.

 

[twhite982]

1peter 3:19 .....preached to the spirits in prison...

where is prison

[/B]

Here is your definition:

Easton's Bible Dictionary
Hell Derived from the Saxon helan, to cover; hence the covered or the invisible place. In Scripture there are three words so rendered:
(1.) Sheol, occurring in the Old Testament sixty-five times. This word sheol is derived from a root-word meaning ""to ask, "" ""demand;"" hence insatiableness (Prov. 30:15, 16). It is rendered ""grave"" thirty-one times (Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Sam. 2:6, etc.). The Revisers have retained this rendering in the historical books with the original word in the margin, while in the poetical books they have reversed this rule.
In thirty-one cases in the Authorized Version this word is rendered ""hell, "" the place of disembodied spirits. The inhabitants of sheol are ""the congregation of the dead"" (Prov. 21:16). It is (a) the abode of the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job 24:19; Ps. 9:17; 31:17, etc.); (b) of the good (Ps. 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13, etc.).
Sheol is described as deep (Job 11:8), dark (10:21, 22), with bars (17:16). The dead ""go down"" to it (Num. 16:30, 33; Ezek. 31:15, 16, 17).
(2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison (1 Pet. 3:19), with gates and bars and locks (Matt. 16:18; Rev. 1:18), and it is downward (Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15).
The righteous and the wicked are separated. The blessed dead are in that part of hades called paradise (Luke 23:43). They are also said to be in Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).
(3.) Gehenna, in most of its occurrences in the Greek New Testament, designates the place of the lost (Matt. 23:33). The fearful nature of their condition there is described in various figurative expressions (Matt. 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30; Luke 16:24, etc.). (See HINNOM.)"
Illustrated Bible Dictionary, M.G. Easton.

 

[twhite982]

1peter 3:19 .....preached to the spirits in prison...

where is prison

2peter 2:4 For if [but he did] God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement

I

look at act 2 tongues where their was no interpetor

in 1cor 12-14 need interpetors

why....two ways to walk Gal 5:16-17

1 cor 13:8 other gifts that are no more

but 12 gifts still active




alright you know your stuff on this it sounds like




spirit baptism




God gave us the ability to walk spiritualy but we are not completely saved only one part of the three is saved in the human[spirit, body, soul]

in matt 6:13 these were ot believer but did not have H.S.
James 1:2 it say be joyous when ye face various temptations




Eph 2:8 is a key verse to understand

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselfs: it is a gift from God.

grace - undeserved favor
saved - past, present, future
faith - hebrews 11:1
not of yourselves - can earn,work ect there at all eph 2:9

 

[heb12-2]

If you were to be presenting your information in a more patient, loving, and open minded manor, then I would listen a lot more than what I am now, but since you conduct does NOT add up to how the word of God says to (in my own opinion) why on earth would I listen what you have to say??

I honestly do not know why you keep saying these kinds of things. I have simply presented scripture, and asked for scripture from those who contend against it. Why does it upset you so much if all I am asking is book, chapter, and verse? I am not asking for your opinions, but a passage.

You may misjudge me and dismiss me as being unloving, but it won't change a single passage that I have presented.

And suppose I am wrong, then you're not going to convince me until you deal with those passages, and show me how I have misunderstood them.

Do you know what a watchman is? He is a person who sits in a tower looking for danger coming into the camp. If he sees this danger, he is supposed to sound the alarm to warn his people.

"I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence," (Is 62:6).

God said that now, not me. I just want to know how I should understand this verse, and how it should be applied.

Here is an example of bad watchmen:
"His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber." (Is 56:10).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that if I were to take your advice, and be quiet, I'd just be a dumb dog that can't bark. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have such a dog. I want one that can bark at the sight of danger. Now he might iritate me and wake me up in the night, but if it is to save my household from an intruder, then he's done his job.

I beg you, listen to this scripture very carefully:

"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul." (Eze 3:18-19).

If I fail to warn where those have departed from God's word, then God will hold me accountable. But if I warn, but the warning is not heeded, then at least I have delivered my soul.

All of my posts have been in this endeavor. I want to go to heaven more than anything in this world. And it is my utmost desire for everyone reading this to do the same.

The watchmen sounds the warning because he "loves" the ones who are in danger.

Can we quit judging motives, and get back to the debate?

 

[heb12-2]

More love and less zeal, heb 12:2, please, for all of us.

"My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words." (Ps 119:139).

"Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Prov. 27:5)

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." (Pr 9:8).

"They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly." (Am 5:10).

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Re 3:19).

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Sheol. We've talked about this before . It can be found explained in Luke 16:19-31.



The word hell here refers to being imprisoned in torment. Torment just happend to be the division of Sheol where the unfaithful go.



There were indeed interpretors:

Acts 2:8 ASV

And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another , Behold, are we not all these that speak Galilaeans.

if interpetors why amazed .....this is a miricle from the Holy Spirit .

according to acts 2:5 jews from every nation were there and they spoke the lauguege from those countries

acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue[dialect], wherein we were born.....
--
Miricles from the Holy Spirit


1 cor 12-14 is a man interpting not God.

There's only one way, because there were interpretors in Acts 2.



I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Spiritual gifts, at the time 1 Corinthians was written, were still occuring because the full revelation was not yet available. However, now it is, so there are no longer and gifts.


There is no mention of a sound like a rushing wind, or immediate gifts mentioned in this passage. Every recorded instance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament (Acts 2 & 10) these things happened.



We have also spent a lot of time discussing this already . You have to harmonize this with Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, etc. There is nothing that is not commanded by God that you can do to "earn" your salvation. Baptism for the remission of sins is commanded by God, so it is something that must be done.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

"My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words." (Ps 119:139).

"Open rebuke is better than secret love." (Prov. 27:5)

"Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee." (Pr 9:8).

"They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly." (Am 5:10).

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Re 3:19).

1 cor 9:19-22 ............how to teach

2 tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches and his goodness[kindness] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness[kindness] of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[aggie03]

Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another , Behold, are we not all these that speak Galilaeans.

if interpetors why amazed .....this is a miricle from the Holy Spirit .

They were the interpretors because the men of Galilee were speaking in REAL languages that were other than their own. Let's look at the entire passage in context of itself, and I urge you brethren, not to ignore any part or to reply in part, but to consider the entire passage:

Acts 2:4-12 ASV

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. (6) And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? (9) Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, (10) in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. (12) And they were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

This is the scene that we have been given: Just after the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened to the Apostles there was agreat multitude that came from the surrounding areas because they has heard the loud sound of the Spirit descending. It makes sense that there were people there from around the world because on certain days of the year, namely feast days and holy days under the Old Law, it was necessary for those who were Jewish or converts to the Jewish faith (proselytes) to go to Jerusalem. We should suppose that these men would have learned either Hebrew or Greek (probably both) in order that they might understand what was being said during the feasts and festivals.

So, these men from foreign countries, who speak languages besides what was spoken in Jerusalem, would have been amazed to hear men who had never left Judea speaking in tongues from around the world. Look at the list of nationalities that was there: Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians. That's a lot of different places and a lot of different languages. Those who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit were able to speak in these other languages to these visitors to Jerusalem as they appeared.

What was the work of the Holy Spirit in this happening? The Holy Spirit gave those who were baptized in it utterance in the other languages. Those speaking in the tongues (dialects) were only able to do so as the Holy Spirit allowed them. This was the miraculous part, not the interpreting, for that was done by each man who knew the different languages.

according to acts 2:5 jews from every nation were there and they spoke the lauguege from those countries

Yup .

acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue[dialect], wherein we were born.....

Wouldn't that amaze you, too?

Miricles from the Holy Spirit
1 cor 12-14 is a man interpting not God

This is dealing with those who were in Corinth. In order to prove that what they were teaching to those in Corinth who were not Christians miracles were necessary because the full revelation was not yet available. So, in order to prove that one was not merely babbling gibberish, there had to be one there to interpret. I believe that the verses are pretty straightforward .

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

They were the interpretors because the men of Galilee were speaking in REAL languages that were other than their own. Let's look at the entire passage in context of itself, and I urge you brethren, not to ignore any part or to reply in part, but to consider the entire passage:

Acts 2:4-12 ASV

And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (5) Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. (6) And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language. (7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans? (8) And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? (9) Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, (10) in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, (11) Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. (12) And they were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

the only interptor in the holy spirit as different speaking Jew with different langueges talk to one another in the others persons language..

wow a miracle no human interpters

This is the scene that we have been given: Just after the baptism of the Holy Spirit happened to the Apostles there was agreat multitude that came from the surrounding areas because they has heard the loud sound of the Spirit descending. It makes sense that there were people there from around the world because on certain days of the year, namely feast days and holy days under the Old Law, it was necessary for those who were Jewish or converts to the Jewish faith (proselytes) to go to Jerusalem. We should suppose that these men would have learned either Hebrew or Greek (probably both) in order that they might understand what was being said during the feasts and festivals.

So, these men from foreign countries, who speak languages besides what was spoken in Jerusalem, would have been amazed to hear men who had never left Judea speaking in tongues from around the world. Look at the list of nationalities that was there: Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians. That's a lot of different places and a lot of different languages. Those who had been baptized with the Holy Spirit were able to speak in these other languages to these visitors to Jerusalem as they appeared.

What was the work of the Holy Spirit in this happening? The Holy Spirit gave those who were baptized in it utterance in the other languages. Those speaking in the tongues (dialects) were only able to do so as the Holy Spirit allowed them. This was the miraculous part, not the interpreting, for that was done by each man who knew the different languages.



Yup .



Wouldn't that amaze you, too?



This is dealing with those who were in Corinth. In order to prove that what they were teaching to those in Corinth who were not Christians miracles were necessary because the full revelation was not yet available. So, in order to prove that one was not merely babbling gibberish, there had to be one there to interpret. I believe that the verses are pretty straightforward .

 

[aggie03]

If you speak to me in spanish, and I understand it - guess who the interpretor was...ME .

In the same way, when these men understood the their language when it was spoken by those who had been baptized by the Holy Spirit, guess who the interpretors were...THEY WERE!

It's a very simple concept, really. In order for tongues to be helpful in building others up and proving what is uttered is from God, the language must be understood by at least one person. In the case of acts, it was understood by many. I hope that this helps

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

If you speak to me in spanish, and I understand it - guess who the interpretor was...ME .

In the same way, when these men understood the their language when it was spoken by those who had been baptized by the Holy Spirit, guess who the interpretors were...THEY WERE!

It's a very simple concept, really. In order for tongues to be helpful in building others up and proving what is uttered is from God, the language must be understood by at least one person. In the case of acts, it was understood by many. I hope that this helps

ONCE AGAIN TRYING TO TAKE GOD'S GLORY ....THE MIRACLE

OF MEN NOT SPEAKING ONE ANOTHER LANGUAGE YET UNDERSTANDING THEM WITH OUT INTERPTOR BUT YOU DO NOT SEE IT

 

[heb12-2]

1 cor 9:19-22 ............how to teach

2 tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches and his goodness[kindness] and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness[kindness] of God leadeth thee to repentance?

"Hear ye my defence which I make now unto you." (Ac. 22:1)

"I have done no wrong, as thou very well knowest" (Ac. 25:10)

Simply presenting scripture does not make one unkind, or ungentle, or impatient. If presenting scripture makes one these things, then you need to rethink your definition of kindness, gentleness, and patience.

Jesus was the most kind, gentle, and patient man that ever walked this earth, but have we forgotten that his words were not always well received?

After a sharp rebuke of the Pharisees, Jesus' disciples came to him and said, "Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?" (Mt 15:12). How did Jesus answer? Did he say, "Well, I guess I should have been more politically correct." You can read it for yourself if you want to know his answer.

Don't confuse boldness as being ungentle (2 Cor. 10:1).

Paul "spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him." (Ac 9:29).

When the Jews were "disputing" with Stephen it says, "they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake." (Ac 6:10).

I don't believe that Stephen was being unkind, ungentle, or impatient, but his words sure bothered them bad enough to stone him.

[size=+2]Here's the truth of the matter. If one has the truth, then he can simply present it as his answer. But if one has no scripture for what he's practicing, he has to either repent, or attack the messenger.[/size]

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (Jn 3:20-21).

 

[Gentle Panther]

I agree with Heb 12-2. I also think that he presents what he believes very well, not with sophisticated arguments, but he preaches Christ crucified and salvation through Him, the way that God has planned it.

Just because there is a dispute about something doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't speak authoritativley on the subject. Don't you think that Satan would want to cause confusion and through persuasive arguments that leave Biblical basis lead people away from the truth? If anything, the fact that there is disagreement would spur me onward to greater study and understanding - not dismissing the topic right off. After all, that is what the devil would want. I'm not trying to insult you, please don't take it that way - I'm just trying to get you to think about how the Devil is still working against us to this very day. He doesn't want you to become a child of God, and will do anything in his power to assure that you won't. Please, study the scriptures, the sum of God's word, and let the gospel be the power unto your salvation (Romans 1:16)!

I am not at all insulted by your post. I spent many years studying scripture....especially the whole issue of baptism. For years, I was a member of the 1st United Pentecostal church that taught adamantly that baptism had to be performed in the name of Jesus...and not by saying "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." They believed that unless a person was baptized with the words "in Jesus name" spoken over them, they were going to Hell.

I ended up in non-denominational churches after that and discovered a whole new view on baptism. Still, there was much division amongst Christians on whether or not baptism was mandatory for salvation. Each side could use opposing scriptures to prove their point. I also ran a Christian forum with my husband which forced me into many debates...including baptism.

This sent me on a study of baptism. I could see where each side had a legitimate case. There is not enough clarity in scripture. Still, I concluded that baptism was not needed for salvation. I felt a person was saved the moment he gave his heart to God. I just could not believe God would send a person to Hell who had not been baptized...but loved God and served God.

Now I am a very liberal Christian.....Unitarian really. I still don't believe baptism matters, but now it's more based on bible contradictions.

 

[Gentle Panther]

It doesn't matter????

To me the fact that no one can agree on it is that its of utmost importance and needs to be understand.

I thought so once. I spent much time studying the whole issue. I made my conclusions. Still, others had opposing conclusions. I could pull out my scriptures, and they could pull out theirs. In the end, it was all a matter of differing viewpoints and opinions.

The devil would want to confuse all on core Christian doctrine.

Are you saying the Devil wrote some parts of scripture in order to contradict other parts and confuse us?

Look at the basics.

God - many different views
Christ - "
Holy Spirit - "
Faith - "
Baptism - "
Resurrection - "

These are a few of the central Christian themes.

Where is the most confusion at?
I would say on the above points.

TW

I would agree. These different views are sometimes based on conflicting scriptures.

 

[Gentle Panther]

I'm sorry but this reasonig makes absolutely no sense at all. You're saying that because people disagree on a subject makes that subject unimportant? This is totally false logic.

I said "To me, the fact that no one Christian can agree on what the scriptures says about baptism, is proof enough that it does not matter. It would have been made clear. Instead, it's full of passages that leave more questions than answers"

I am not saying that to disagree on any given subject makes a subject unimportant. I am also voicing my opinion. I am not speaking for others on here.

If you think this reasoning is sensible, then try it on some of the things you believe ARE important. It would go like this:

"To me, the fact that no one Christian can agree on what the scriptures says about SALVATION, is proof enough that SALVATION does not matter."

[size=+2]Now how much sense would that make?[/size]

To me, it makes a lot of sense.

Just try your logic on the book of Revelation. People don't agree on it, so would you say the book of Revelation doesn't matter? Absurd. Would you say the book of Revelation is "full of passages that leave more questions than answers"? So does that mean then that it "doesn't matter?"

I used to study the book of Revelation. There was a time it fascinated me. I found the preterist view more logical than all the "end times" prophecies pertaining to the current time.

In fact, did you know that people don't agree on the BIBLE, period? Would you say the Bible doesn't matter? Would you say that sense the whole Bible is "full of passages that leave more questions than answers", that the Bible "doesn't matter?" Ludicrous

This may seem ludicrous to you, but it isn't to me. The fact that the bible has so many contradictions leeaves me with the opinion and viewpoint that it is not inspired.

Listen, just because people disagree on a subject, that doesn't mean that the subject doesn't matter. It simply means that someone has got to be mistaken. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

I totally agree.

If you say 2+2=4, but someone else says it equals 5, can you both be right?

2+2=4 is an unequivocal fact.

Besides all this, where is the scripture that says that everyone has to agree on a subject before it matters?

Thankfully, I don't know of any such scipture!

Are you willing to take back your statement?

No, because I was giving my opinion. You can call it "absurd" and "ludricrous", but I won't be bullied into changing my mind.

 

[heb12-2]

I am not saying that to disagree on any given subject makes a subject unimportant. I am also voicing my opinion. I am not speaking for others on here.

I'm glad you responded. Honestly, it sounded like that was what you were doing with baptism. Would you not agree that our opinions do not establish what is right?
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Pr 14:12).

To me, it makes a lot of sense.

Do you believe salvation is unimportant?

I used to study the book of Revelation. There was a time it fascinated me. I found the preterist view more logical than all the "end times" prophecies pertaining to the current time.

Are you saying that the book of Revelation is unimportant? Just an honest question.

This may seem ludicrous to you, but it isn't to me. The fact that the bible has so many contradictions leeaves me with the opinion and viewpoint that it is not inspired.

Now the truth is coming out. You don't believe the Bible is inspired, so that is why you don't believe baptism is important.

If I saw that you were about to be harmed, I would care enough to say something. Please take this verse that way:
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (Jn 12:48).

I totally agree.

I'm glad you're saying that you agree, but it still does sound like you just ruled out the Bible because people disagree on it.

2+2=4 is an unequivocal fact.

That's right, and you're not being a "bully" for stating that fact.

Thankfully, I don't know of any such scipture!

Even if you did, you don't believe it is inspired. Question: Why are you "thankful" about it, if you don't believe it matters? Does that mean that it DOES matter to you some?

No, because I was giving my opinion. You can call it "absurd" and "ludricrous", but I won't be bullied into changing my mind.

God gave you free will to make that choice. But your choice has a consequense.

If I said 2+2=5, you would think of that as "absurd" and "ludricrous", wouldn't you?

And you would not be a "bully" if you told me that it is "an unequivocal fact" that the answer is 4 and that any other answer is false.

 

[Gentle Panther]

I'm glad you responded. Honestly, it sounded like that was what you were doing with baptism. Would you not agree that our opinions do not establish what is right?
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Pr 14:12).

Our opposing opinions on a subject that is not clear are both valid...both right.

Do you believe salvation is unimportant?

At this point, I still sorting through a lot of my old beliefs and trying to figure out what I do and do not believe. I can't see salvation as being needed........but i am still looking.

Are you saying that the book of Revelation is unimportant? Just an honest question.

It is unimportant to me at this time.

Now the truth is coming out. You don't believe the Bible is inspired, so that is why you don't believe baptism is important.

Right.

If I saw that you were about to be harmed, I would care enough to say something. Please take this verse that way:
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (Jn 12:48).

Thank you.

Even if you did, you don't believe it is inspired. Question: Why are you "thankful" about it, if you don't believe it matters? Does that mean that it DOES matter to you some?

It means that I am still trying to figure things out. Christanity did nothing but cause me pain and abuse. The bible has always been used to beat. Serving God and church for over ten years was Hell for me.

God gave you free will to make that choice. But your choice has a consequense.

If God is really like that, he is very unfair.

If I said 2+2=5, you would think of that as "absurd" and "ludricrous", wouldn't you?

I would think you were being funny or sarcastic, but I weould not throw words like "ludicrous" or "absurd" at you. I would probably wait to see if you corrected it, or if you had intended a joke.

And you would not be a "bully" if you told me that it is "an unequivocal fact" that the answer is 4 and that any other answer is false.

If you had said 2+2=5, then you would have proven to me that you cannot add. However, I would be careful in my reply.........since there are some who truly cannot add and it would be cruel to poke fun at them or cut them down.