Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[cougan]

Have you read that chapter or were you just searching for a quote to fit your view? BTW, they were not Jesus's disciples otherwise Jesus wouldn't have had that particular discussion with them. You should read the chapter to understand the context.

I stand corrected and apoligize for using the word discipels. Indeed it was not his diciples. However the argument still stands weather it was disciples or others. Thats a very minor mistake but thanks for pointing it out.

Belief is a work of obedience? So do you believe just to obey? Why would you obey something before you believed it?

I will tell you how I work: I believe something before I obey it.

Let's not get all Mormon up in this piece. Clarification- Mormons told me to start practicing their religion before I believed it... I said, "Why?". Can't you see how rediculous it would be to obey without believing? I am not asking for some super exegesis of some passage that has the english word believe and the english word work in it. I am talking about common sense.

Why do you believe what you believe? If it is because you are obeying, then it is not true belief, it is following of directions off of a preassumption. God doesn't want your mindless following, He wants your full faith, which is not something that you do, but it does something to you. Faith changes you and works will come from that. Calling belief a work is a joke.

Before you can belive you must hear. You have to decided and choose to hear the truth or not. Thats a work. Then you have to choose to belive the truth or not thats a work. Again God commanded that we belive in Mark 16:16. A command is something we choose to follow and therfore would be an obedient work. When it comes to accpeting God gift it always followed up by an active faith to accept the gift. Jericoh was given to Joshua but he had to obey God and put his faith and trust in him that if he followed his instructions the wall would come down. Naamen had the free gift of healing but he had to belive and obey the message from God for him to dip in the Jordan. It wasnt until he obeyed that he received his healing. God gives us his grace but man has his part in obeying the fathers will to accept that free gift. Hearing, beliving, repenting, confessing and baptism accepts the gift and living a faithful life until death keeps the gift.

 

[Philo]

God owes nobody.

If you do everything right, by your way of thinking, God is obligated to reciprocate.

You have earned.

It is not free, then.

It is no longer grace, but another simpler Law (this time, communicated in the pages of Paul and others rather than on stone tablets, but the idea is the same) that is still another Law. The beauty of the Gospel is in its potrail of a God who would do anything to be with His People, even die among them, if that's what it took. To take that, twist it into yet another law in a book listing laws, listing work orders to be filled, is near blasphemous... Not literally, in the "unholy" way. More like, dirty. It's taking something that is beautiful, genuine, visceral and undeniably human and crushing it under the weight of ego. Just because you can't understand something that loving doesn't make something that loving not exist. It's interesting that in order to understand love, you have to cloak it in limitations, gussy it up with all kinds of platitudes and diagrams and ordered lists so that it's digestable. It's not a hard story. It's so simple, so undeniable, that even a child could understand it: I would do anything for you, just because I love you. That's what Christ said to humanity. He was a picture of a God who said "this is as much as any of you could give... Here, take it."

So, take it.

<3<3<3,

Philo

 

[Aaron11]

Hey we agree on something. Obedience is a work. However, you turn around and say that obedience has nothing to do with our salvation but obediece is has everything to do with after one is saved. So according to you there is no obedience involved in order to become saved. Aaron you have put yourself in another pickle. Now in my last post I have already shown you that repentance occures before salvation which is already a death blow to what you have stated in this post but consider the following.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Aaron11]

I stand corrected and apoligize for using the word discipels. Indeed it was not his diciples. However the argument still stands weather it was disciples or others. Thats a very minor mistake but thanks for pointing it out.


Before you can belive you must hear. You have to decided and choose to hear the truth or not. Thats a work. Then you have to choose to belive the truth or not thats a work. Again God commanded that we belive in Mark 16:16. A command is something we choose to follow and therfore would be an obedient work. When it comes to accpeting God gift it always followed up by an active faith to accept the gift. Jericoh was given to Joshua but he had to obey God and put his faith and trust in him that if he followed his instructions the wall would come down. Naamen had the free gift of healing but he had to belive and obey the message from God for him to dip in the Jordan. It wasnt until he obeyed that he received his healing. God gives us his grace but man has his part in obeying the fathers will to accept that free gift. Hearing, beliving, repenting, confessing and baptism accepts the gift and living a faithful life until death keeps the gift.

If you define work as "anything you do" then yeah... hearing is a work. Going to Heaven is a work. Loving God is a work. Waking up is a work. Understanding is a work. Retaining conciousness is a work. Existing is a work. However, I don't see how we use the word "work" to describe "anything you do", because I don't know many people who would argue that simply existing is a work. Existing is something you do.

If you confess Jesus as Lord and believe he was raised from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[cougan]

This would had been a very good post showing more evidence of what the Bible teaches on works and salvation. Unfortuntally about 45 min. into my reply I accidently hit some button on my keyboard that activated the back button so I lost my entire post. I hate it when that happens. #R(#)$#$#)#.

I will try and and write it again some other time. Philo an Aaron I was responding to you. I will say this much. You will notice that I have been reasoning with you from scripture backing up what I say, however you have not even tried to deal with my questions or the arguements I have made. You are just stating what you think now and not even bothering to try and use the word of God. I hope the people that are viewing this thread take note and see that you guys are silent when comes do dealing with what I have shown from scripture.

 

[Philo]

This would had been a very good post showing more evidence of what the Bible teaches on works and salvation. Unfortuntally about 45 min. into my reply I accidently hit some button on my keyboard that activated the back button so I lost my entire post. I hate it when that happens. #R(#)$#$#)#.

I will try and and write it again some other time. Philo an Aaron I was responding to you. I will say this much. You will notice that I have been reasoning with you from scripture backing up what I say, however you have not even tried to deal with my questions or the arguements I have made. You are just stating what you think now and not even bothering to try and use the word of God. I hope the people that are viewing this thread take note and see that you guys are silent when comes do dealing with what I have shown from scripture.

I think the lurkers know we have Bibles too, Cougan. What the Bible says isn't the issue here... We obviously think the Bible says things that you don't think it says. The issue is why you think the Bible says one thing and why we think it says something else. That's the meat of the issue. There's no "what the Bible says" because the Bible will always say different things to different people. What's interesting is the "why" behind why one person sees the Bible one way and another person sees the Bible another way. My read of the Bible is normed by my understanding of the nature of God. From what I've read, God is Love. God and Love are two words meant to illustrate the same idea. That God is Love is my standard. If that is true, if God is Love, then everything else in the Bible must harmonize with that idea. I don't know why you think the things you think about the Bible. That's why I think what I think about the Bible. Quoting the Bible isn't going to change anything, because until you see the Bible differently, everything I say will sound like poppycock. Is any of this registering with you?

<3<3<3,

Philo

 

[Philo]

I will try and and write it again some other time. Philo an Aaron I was responding to you. I will say this much. You will notice that I have been reasoning with you from scripture backing up what I say, however you have not even tried to deal with my questions or the arguements I have made. You are just stating what you think now and not even bothering to try and use the word of God. I hope the people that are viewing this thread take note and see that you guys are silent when comes do dealing with what I have shown from scripture.

And on another note, post #1464 is almost completely scripture, and seems to set up a pretty natural progression when it comes to determining who is in Christ.

<3<3<3,

Philo

 

[Aaron11]

Philo an Aaron I was responding to you. I will say this much. You will notice that I have been reasoning with you from scripture backing up what I say, however you have not even tried to deal with my questions or the arguements I have made. You are just stating what you think now and not even bothering to try and use the word of God. I hope the people that are viewing this thread take note and see that you guys are silent when comes do dealing with what I have shown from scripture.

I am not silent on the scriptures, I just have a different interpretation than you do concerning some passages.

Also, I would like to bring attention to this part of your post, "You are just stating what you think now and not even bothering to try and use the word of God.". Yes, I am stating what I think, that is all I can do. In fact, all that you can do is state your thoughts as well. I am honest in motivation and I trust you are also. I am sincerely wanting to know the truth, so I am not just giving my preferences on what could be true, I am giving my thoughts on what the truth is. I come to these conclusions from reading the Bible, thinking, observing life, practicing Christianity, and much more. I am not ashamed of my thoughts and I stand by them as just that, my thoughts. I would just like to take a moment of silence to recognize the fact that anyone posting on this forum, except God Himself, would just be giving their imperfect thoughts (including Cougan). **Pause** Thank you. So, before we discount someone's post because it is "just stating what [they] think", realize that is all you can ask of a person anyhow.

 

[DavidB]

Baptism is an outward sign of the reception of Christ inwardly. Dipping in the water doesn't make a difference because I have been submersed many times. However baptism is a different thing, I do not believe that you must be baptised to be saved. A person that is saved has already been baptised with the spirit by Christ upon entrance to his heart, the outward should be done to support the inward.

In His Eternal Service,
DavidB

 

[aggie03]

I am not silent on the scriptures, I just have a different interpretation than you do concerning some passages.

Also, I would like to bring attention to this part of your post, "You are just stating what you think now and not even bothering to try and use the word of God.". Yes, I am stating what I think, that is all I can do. In fact, all that you can do is state your thoughts as well. I am honest in motivation and I trust you are also. I am sincerely wanting to know the truth, so I am not just giving my preferences on what could be true, I am giving my thoughts on what the truth is. I come to these conclusions from reading the Bible, thinking, observing life, practicing Christianity, and much more. I am not ashamed of my thoughts and I stand by them as just that, my thoughts. I would just like to take a moment of silence to recognize the fact that anyone posting on this forum, except God Himself, would just be giving their imperfect thoughts (including Cougan). **Pause** Thank you. So, before we discount someone's post because it is "just stating what [they] think", realize that is all you can ask of a person anyhow.

I disagree with this concept entirely. Paul says that we can understand the mystery that was revealed to him by reading the things that he has written. We can know exactly what God wants us to know.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

hello guys!

what mystery of paul's 12 are we talking about?

 

[Crispie]

No, baptism is only a symoblic representation of your faith and your old sinful life being burried and you starting a new life in Christ.

 

[aggie03]

No, baptism is only a symoblic representation of your faith and your old sinful life being burried and you starting a new life in Christ.

Would you mind explaining to me why you believe this? It would seem like baptism was necessary for one to have the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), so it would be really helpful for me if you explained why you believe what you do

 

[Aaron11]

I disagree with this concept entirely. Paul says that we can understand the mystery that was revealed to him by reading the things that he has written. We can know exactly what God wants us to know.

Well then why do we see it differently? I have an earnest and honest desire for truth, and I assume you do also. How are we seeing this so differently if we both can know exactly the truth about everything? I assume it is because people have different points of view. I will not assume your motives to be bad because we don't agree. And I will continue to recognize my motives as good and truthful as well. Assuming that both of our motives are good, and realizing that we don't see eye to eye on all of this, I conclude that we both think honestly and differently on this subject.

 

[CZzyzx41]

To answer the thread subject's question. Yes. John 3:5, Acts 2:38 & 10:48 & 22:16, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19. Just my opinion and a few verses. Interpret as you will but I see this as absolute proof that you must be baptised to be saved. Whether you believe the Bible to be the word of God or not. The rule applies to all.

Again...Christ himself thought it important enough to get baptized himself. If it's not really essential to be baptized in order to be saved, why would Christ waste his time?

 

[Crispie]

To answer the thread subject's question. Yes. John 3:5, Acts 2:38 & 10:48 & 22:16, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19. Just my opinion and a few verses. Interpret as you will but I see this as absolute proof that you must be baptised to be saved. Whether you believe the Bible to be the word of God or not. The rule applies to all.

Again...Christ himself thought it important enough to get baptized himself. If it's not really essential to be baptized in order to be saved, why would Christ waste his time?

Christs baptism was much different. His baptism meant the start of his ministry, and of the Holy Spirit decending upon him to guide him in his ministry.

 

[cougan]

I am still waiting for you guys to show where I have misunderstood the Bible in post 1478 and 1479.

If those are to challeging for you answer then try to deal with this.

2 Timothy 2:11-12 11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

Paul sums up Chrisitianty in these verses. I want you to notice ver 11 which states IF we died with him we shall also live with him.

Colossians 3:1-4 Colossians 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Again notice the IF statements. If we were raised with Christ we are to seek those things above. One again Paul tells the Christian that they have died and because of this our life is hidden with Christ.

Obviously its very important to die with Christ and to be raised with Christ. The question becomes when or how do we die with Christ and when and how are we raised with Christ?

Paul once again gives us the clear cut answer.

Romans 6:3-9 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Colossians 2:12-13 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Notice I let Paul do the teaching here I just pasted the verses and I am pointing out the obvious. It couldnt be any clearer. One does not die with Christ nor is one raised with Christ until they are baptized. Your sins are not removed until you die with Christ in baptism. These are not my thoughts they are thus says the Lord. The arguments I have made are rock solid because its what word says and not myself.

 

[aggie03]

Well then why do we see it differently?

Why did the Jews stone Stephen? Why did they crucify Christ? Why did Saul ravage the church? Why are there any disagreements whatsoever?

Romans 10:2 ASV

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

The fact that there is a sharp disagreement on what is necessary for one to be saved only proves that one of the views is without knowledge.

I have an earnest and honest desire for truth, and I assume you do also. How are we seeing this so differently if we both can know exactly the truth about everything?

It is very possible for one to be sincerely wrong.

I assume it is because people have different points of view.

The constance and Truth of God does not waver and vary based on your point of view.

Assuming that both of our motives are good, and realizing that we don't see eye to eye on all of this, I conclude that we both think honestly and differently on this subject.

I agree that we have come to different conclusions - and one of us necessarily is wrong. If we are both being honest, as you have said, then the Truth when accurately presented will cause the person who is wrong to change.

You also hold different conclusions than one who is a Jehovah's Witness. Would you make this same argumentation and justification for the things that they conclude? I really am just curious, I'm not being antagonistic

The fact that we disagree in no way changes the truth of the things that Paul has said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - we can understand perfectly the mystery revealed to him simply by reading the things that he has written.

 

[aggie03]

No, baptism is only a symoblic representation of your faith and your old sinful life being burried and you starting a new life in Christ.

Hi Crispie

What I meant by my earlier post was can you show me a verse from the Scriptures that clearly presents what you have said in this post?

 

[CZzyzx41]

I thought the scriptures I presented were fairly clear. John 3:5 and Mark 16:16 in particular.