Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[nb_christseeker]

Hasn't anyone ever heard the saying that it is better to listen than to speak? Proverbs goes over very fully that fools are fast to speak and slow to listen, and it is their own downfall. It also mentions that even if you beat a fool senseless, you still will not get a point across to him. The best advice that Proverbs gives to fools (whomever they might be, this isn't AT you in particular, so don't flame me) is to shut your mouth. The wise think before they speak, listen before they think, and speak sparingly. One word of rebuke to a wise man is more effective than a hundred lashes on a fool. We want to be wise right?

This thread is 51 pages long yet where is the UNITY? Christ said that we, as born again believers, are to be ONE in spirit. This is not one-ness, this is the work of the devil causing division. Listen before you speak! And yet look, even I am guilty of being a fool, for I did not read all 51 pages. Or am I being discerning with my time? But why should there be 51 pages of discussion at all? This is not a good sign that such a simple doctrine to be so heavily debated. The devil is attacking Christ's words so that people will be confused.

If Christ felt it necessary to be baptized, and told us to be baptized, and his apostles did baptizing, that's good enough for me. If you believe, and you've never chosen to get baptized, JUST DO IT! Jesus isn't gonna fault you for declaring to the world that you believe in Christ.

But even 100 lashes on a fool won't change his mind. Lord, save me from my own foolishness, for I display it every day in so many ways. Save us all from our fiery tounges, and forgive me for my lack of wisdom.

 

[cougan]

I did and I have to tell you that you are wrong. You are misapplying Scriptures to your own destruction.

Julie

Ok lets see.... you make the simple statement that I am wrong and misapplying scripture to my own destruction yet you give no proof from the scripture. I have provided simple and easy to understand SCRIPTURE over and over again allowing the word of God to speak about baptism.

If you really want to correct me where I have misapplied scripture then you need to use scripture and logic to show where I am wrong. To simply state that I am wrong proves nothing. So why dont you back up your empty claims with the Bible so I can edified?

Cougan

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Ok lets see.... you make the simple statement that I am wrong and misapplying scripture to my own destruction yet you give no proof from the scripture. I have provided simple and easy to understand SCRIPTURE over and over again allowing the word of God to speak about baptism.

If you really want to correct me where I have misapplied scripture then you need to use scripture and logic to show where I am wrong. To simply state that I am wrong proves nothing. So why dont you back up your empty claims with the Bible so I can edified?

Cougan

Cougan yo said we have to have obiedence of baptism to be saved.
yet eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God. 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

or even this verse
1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit

where do we do anything? We believe But who gives us ears to hear?
Mark 4:9-12, John 1:5

oh yeah water... what ever but we have gone round and round as have many people here.. yet one one person can teach
1 cor 2:10 .. only the spirit

if you still argueing you must have a blind of some sort wither Believer blind or unbeliever blind only God can know.

 

[evangelist]

Baptism is a work and trying to get brownie points for salvation.

Jesus did all the finish works for us on the Cross why we need a water down another gospel??

 

[Qoheleth]

Baptism is a work and trying to get brownie points for salvation.

Jesus did all the finish works for us on the Cross why we need a water down another gospel??

Of course baptism is important! It is commanded by our Lord (Matthew 28:19) and by Peter (Acts 2:38), and disobedience to this command is sin.

But regardless of this great importance of baptism, we do find that the Scriptures teach that baptism is not necessary to salvation.

This is not a suggestion that Christians should not be baptized: I believe they should be. But it is simply a recognition that failure to be baptized does not prevent one from being saved.

Jesus commanded it, why would a believer resist and for what reason??

 

[aggie03]

Baptism is a work and trying to get brownie points for salvation.

Baptism in no way earns someone their salvation, just like believing in no way earns someone their salvation. Do I deserve to be saved because I repent of my sins? No, of course not. The fact that I have sinned at all in my life means that I deserve to die.

However, because God is merciful, He has offered salvation to those whom would be obedient to the conditions that God placed on that salvation. Just like repenting and believing, baptism is one of these conditions.

Am I saved because I am baptized for the remission of my sins (Acts 2:38)? No, I am saved because God is merciful and faithful to His promise.

Jesus did all the finish works for us on the Cross why we need a water down another gospel??

I read no where in the Scriptures where is says, explicitly, that I no have to do absolutely nothing because Christ died on the cross. What I do read, however, is that because Christ died I can have the promise of eternal life with God if I am obedient and love God (which includes doing the things that He says ).

Another thing to consider is that when Phillip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch, the Eunuch then understood that He needed to be baptized. It seems then that being baptized into Christ is a crucial part of the gospel of Christ.

 

[alexeeah]

Well I don't have time to sit and read the whole thread but I don't believe baptism is essential to being saved,.......Look Lu 23:39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.Lu 23:40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?Lu 23:41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.Lu 23:42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.Lu 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This man was saved and merely asked God to remember him in His kingdom..........

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Baptism in no way earns someone their salvation, just like believing in no way earns someone their salvation. Do I deserve to be saved because I repent of my sins? No, of course not. The fact that I have sinned at all in my life means that I deserve to die.

However, because God is merciful, He has offered salvation to those whom would be obedient to the conditions that God placed on that salvation. Just like repenting and believing, baptism is one of these conditions.

Am I saved because I am baptized for the remission of my sins (Acts 2:38)? No, I am saved because God is merciful and faithful to His promise.


I read no where in the Scriptures where is says, explicitly, that I no have to do absolutely nothing because Christ died on the cross. What I do read, however, is that because Christ died I can have the promise of eternal life with God if I am obedient and love God (which includes doing the things that He says ).

that is called works which is not what God's word says!

iN ROMANS HOW DOES A UNGODLY MAN BECOME RIGHTEOUS? bELIEVE ROMANS 4:5-8

WAS DAVID OBIEDANT WHEN HE MURDER AND COMMITED ADULTRY?

YET HE IS STILL SAVED!

Another thing to consider is that when Phillip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch, the Eunuch then understood that He needed to be baptized. It seems then that being baptized into Christ is a crucial part of the gospel of Christ.

was already saved and the Holy spirit baptised him then He got water baptised to show other people!

 

[aggie03]

that is called works which is not what God's word says!

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.

It seems as though there are certain things that we must do, otherwise we don't love Jesus. Can we be saved and not love Jesus? No.

was already saved and the Holy spirit baptised him then He got water baptised to show other people!

Show me this in the Bible, please. Can you show me where it says that the Ethiopian Eunuch was saved before he was obedient to the gospel of Christ and baptized for the remission of his sins? Can you show me where it says that the Holy Spirit baptized him?

 

[aggie03]

Well I don't have time to sit and read the whole thread but I don't believe baptism is essential to being saved,.......Look Lu 23:39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.Lu 23:40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?Lu 23:41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.Lu 23:42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.Lu 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This man was saved and merely asked God to remember him in His kingdom..........

The thief on the cross was also living under the Old Covenant, which we are not.

 

[Abiel]

I am new to this, and cant be reading all 53 pages, so this may have been said already. If so, I apologise.

If it is true that baptism is essential for salvation, then my church, The Salvation Army, is going to hell. We do not practice baptism.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

lol i cannot beleive this thread is still going on....


I think this thread proves that baptism is the most controversial issue in the bible.

 

[western kentucky]

I am new to this, and cant be reading all 53 pages, so this may have been said already. If so, I apologise.

If it is true that baptism is essential for salvation, then my church, The Salvation Army, is going to hell. We do not practice baptism.

As a Christian, I am to teach God's word to others. I am not in the position to condemn others to Hell. My duty is to study and to teach the word of God. I must "study" for the purpose of discerning between "truth" and "error" (1 Pet. 3:15; 1 John 4:1). Proper judgement on my part is vital for serving God.

God's word teaches that baptism: 1) saves us (1 Pet. 3:21); 2) is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38); 3) washes away our sins (Acts 22:16); 4) is to put on Christ (Gal. 3:27); 4) is to be buried with Christ (Col. 2:12); etc...

What are your thoughts?


WK

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I am new to this, and cant be reading all 53 pages, so this may have been said already. If so, I apologise.

If it is true that baptism is essential for salvation, then my church, The Salvation Army, is going to hell. We do not practice baptism.

As I posted much earlier (and I apologize for not reading much of the discussion after that), the thief on the cross proves that salvation can occur without baptism. Baptism is profitable for salvation, but it is not strictly necessary.

PS - I think the story of your church's founding is very inspirational.

 

[Abiel]

As I posted much earlier (and I apologize for not reading much of the discussion after that), the thief on the cross proves that salvation can occur without baptism. Baptism is profitable for salvation, but it is not strictly necessary.

PS - I think the story of your church's founding is very inspirational.

you see, this is what i believe- i think the phrase is that 'baptism is an outward sign' of salvation- so not the thing itself, and that while John baptized with water, Jesus baptises with the spirit(Luke 3:16) but i get in a pickle when people start quoting scripture at me.

thank you for your kind remark. I hope I can be true to those foundational principles as I begin my ministry.

 

[Qoheleth]

Is baptism necessary for salvation

The answer is a simple, "No." But you might ask, "If the answer is no, then why are there verses that say things like ‘. . .baptism that now saves you . . . ‘ (1 Pet. 3:21, NIV) and ‘ . . . Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins . . ." (Acts 2:38, NIV)? This is an honest question and it needs a competent answer. But, before I tackle this I need to lay a foundation of proper theology, then I'll address some of those verses that are commonly used to support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation.

God Works Covenantally ​

First, you need to understand that God works covenantally. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties. The New Testament and Old Testaments are New and Old Covenants. The word "testament" comes from the Latin testamentum which means covenant. So, the Bible is a covenant document. If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.​

​

If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep" (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV).

If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.
Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.

The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision. "They represent the same spiritual blessings that were symbolized by circumcision and Passover in the old dispensation" (Berkhoff, Lewis, Systematic Theology, 1988, p. 620.).

Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).
An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.
In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.

If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).
Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

What is the Gospel? ​

It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here. ​

​

Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV). These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.

​

 

[Qoheleth]

Let's Suppose... ​

Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)? ​

Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is dangerous because it is saying that there is something we must do to complete salvation. That is wrong! See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
All right, so this sounds reasonable. But still, what about those verses that seem to say that baptism is part of salvation? I'll address those now. But, because this subject can become quite lengthy, in fact, sufficient for a book in itself, I'll only address a few verses and then only briefly.

Baptism Verses ​

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.'"
Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted. If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4). If that is so, then baptism isn't necessary for salvation because the baptism of repentance is no longer practiced.
It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process. Jesus said in verse three that Nicodemus needed to be born "again." This meant that he had been born once--through his mother. Nicodemus responds with a statement about how he can't enter again into his mother's womb to be born. Then Jesus says that he must be born of water and the Spirit. Then in verse 6 He says that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.." The context seems to be discussing the contrast between the natural and the spiritual birth. Water, therefore, could easily be interpreted there to mean the natural birth process.
I would like to add that there are scholars who agree with the position and some who do not. Some believe that the water refers to the Word of God, the Bible, and others claim it means the Holy Spirit. You decide for yourself.

Acts 2:38, "Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.‘"
This verse is a tough one. It seems to say that baptism is part of salvation. But we know, from other scriptures that it isn't, lest there be a contradiction. What is going on here is simply that repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected. In the Greek, "repent" is in the plural and so is "your" of "your sins." They are meant to be understood as being related to each other. It is like saying, "All of you repent, each of you get baptized, and all of you will receive forgiveness." Repentance is a mark of salvation because it is granted by God (2 Tim. 2:25) and is given to believers only. In this context, only the regenerated, repentant person is to be baptized. Baptism is the manifestation of the repentance, that gift from God, that is the sign of the circumcised heart. That is why it says, repent and get baptized.

1 Pet. 3:21, "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
This is the only verse that says that baptism saves. But, the NIV translation of the verse is unfortunate. A better translation is found in the NASB which says, "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. Baptism is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?", or "Baptism corresponds to what?". The answer is found in the previous verse, verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you" (NASB).
What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family? Was it the water or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith and was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Peter, when referring to the flood waters, refers to them as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6). It was the Ark that saved. Noah entered the ark by faith. Baptism here, in my opinion, refers to the Ark, not the waters. That is why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where He equates baptism with being circumcised of heart.

Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
Is the washing away of sins done by baptism, the representation of the circumcised heart (Col. 2:11-12) which means you are already saved, or is it by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:14; Rom. 5:9; Eph. 1:7)? Obviously it is the blood of Jesus and the washing here refers to the calling on Jesus' name.

Rom. 6:4, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Because the believer is so closely united to Christ it is said that the symbol of baptism is our death, burial, and resurrection. Obviously we did not die--unless, of course, it is a figurative usage.

Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves, but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.

Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.

 

[Abiel]

There's an old Army song:

Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power?
Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
Are you fully trusting in his grace this hour?
Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?

...There's a fountain flowing for the soul unclean,
Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?

 

[western kentucky]

As I posted much earlier (and I apologize for not reading much of the discussion after that), the thief on the cross proves that salvation can occur without baptism

.

From my understanding of the word of God, the thief on the cross died under the old law (Heb. 7:12). We are now under the new law of Christ (Heb. 9:16). Therefore, the thief on the cross is not applicable to the discussion of the necessity of baptism.

A Christian is instructed to speak as the oracles of God (1 Pet. 4:11) - - meaning - - there is an enormous difference between man's opinion and God's word. As one considers the necessity of baptism, his/her conclusion should be based on the word of God. To get to the point, I am not interested in hearing one's opinion alone; An opinion only carries weight when coupled with a bible passage.

 

[western kentucky]

Baptism is profitable for salvation, but it is not strictly necessary.

Acts 2:38