Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Celestron]

Jesus said, 'let this be done to fulfill all righteousness'.

i'd hate to have my righteousness unfulfilled

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

we are righteous when we believe Romans 4:5

nothing else

 

[Florida College]

OR God choses who he will save who he wills like in matt 11:20-24...He knew what would have saved Sodom but chose not too? Why to teach people about Himself with that situation.

He gives Faith....Gal 5:22
He baptizes..... 1 cor 12:13
He decides who to recieve Grace Eph 1:4

GOD's sovergity vs man's free will

Both are true

Brethren,

Perhaps, I missed something.

I understand Jesus in Matthew 11:20-24 to be discussing the lack of repentance among the people of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. These people were without excuse. Jesus had performed “mighty works” there, but they refused to repent. These cities are contrasted with wicked cities that God had previously condemned . . . Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom. Jesus points out that these cities, even in their wickedness, would have repented if they had seen the mighty works which he had done. This conclusion does not give a favorable opinion of the faithfulness of the Jewish cities (and people) that Jesus is addressing.

Your quote: “He knew what would have saved Sodom but chose not too” is not a valid conclusion to be drawn from Matt. 11:20-24. In this text, Jesus’ reasoning is simply that the people of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum are totally without excuse, and should view their action (lack of repentance) as being worthy of God’s wrath.

Galatians 5:22 is a passage we have previously looked at. It lists the fruit of the Spirit (continuing in vs. 23). The fruit of the Spirit is contrasted with the works of the flesh in the previous verses (vs. 19-21). As we consider the fruit of the Spirit of “faith” or faithfulness, the question becomes: “How does the Holy Spirit guide the Christian to develop faith?” Romans 10:17 gives us the answer, “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” We can see clearly how this process works in Acts 16:30-33. The Philippian jailor desires to be saved (vs. 30). Paul and Silas tell him what he must do - - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” (vs. 31). Then they preached the word to him (vs. 32). Then, we determine in vs. 33 that the word brought forth faith, because we find that the jailor and his family were baptized. This understanding is in harmony with Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”

1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” It is necessary that we correctly understand the Spirit’s role in baptism. The events of Acts chapter 8 demonstrate the Spirit’s role. Philip is directed by the Holy Spirit to the Ethiopian eunuch (vs. 29). Philip, beginning at the scripture the eunuch was reading, Isaiah 53:7b-8 (vs. 30-33), “preached Jesus to him” (vs. 35). We can then easily determine from the following verses that the baptism that Philip preached was a baptism in water - - not the baptism of the Holy Spirit (vs. 36-39). Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:20-21 tells us why the eunuch was so anxious to be baptized.

Ephesians 1:4 does not say that God decides who is to receive grace. Look at the verse carefully. That is not what it says. You would have the verse say something that it doesn’t - - something that would clearly contradict Titus 2:11, which plainly says, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” Eph. 1:4 says, “Just as God chose us [the saints, or faithful of vs.1) before the foundation of the world.” The bible student must decide if the saints are chosen individually, or as a group. Calvinists say they are chosen individually, but have yet to harmonize that reasoning with other scriptures. Whatever approach one decides must agree with Jesus’ words in Mark 16:15-16. Consider: Why would the apostles be charged with taking the gospel to “every creature,” if “every creature” did not have the free-will to choose whether or not they would obey the Lord?

Man does have the free-will to choose. Joshua recognized this (Joshua 24:15) during Old Testament times. God’s grace has been extended to all men, but the message of salvation through Jesus must be accepted and obeyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 . . . consider vs.10 - - “those who believe” are those who came to “know” and “obey” God in vs.8). The Hebrew writer states it this way: “He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (5:9). Jesus stated it this way: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk. 16:16).

What factors do you say are necessary for salvation? Would you disagree with the Lord in Mark 16:16? With Peter in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-21? With Paul in Acts 22:16?

. . . Denny

 

[Florida College]

I think it would be a mistake to say that everyone that will be saved will be baptized, because I know that God is loving and fair and I don't think of it as loving or fair to punish someone that never had a chance to know about Christ or about baptism (like the Native Americans in 200 A.D. ... just as an example). Of course, I know that batism is important and we should follow Christ's example in baptism. I teach baptism as an act of obedience to the Lord, but I just don't want to make a hasty generalization by saying that baptism is absolutely necessary to enter heaven. God will be just and loving. If you think it is just and loving to send a person to hell that never heard the name Jesus, then it is reasonable to assume that God would do such a thing. However, if you see this as unjust and unloving, then it is unreasonable to believe that our Lord would do such a thing. Personally, I think that the power in the blood of Christ is overwhelming and too great to be stopped by involuntary ignorance. Realize that God sent His Son (only begotten), to die because He loves people so much. Do you think that God would deny some people the chance of living with Him eternally just because they live in a remote location on the globe? IMHO, I seriously doubt it.

Aaron,

Just wondering . . . how would you explain John 14:1-6 using your present line of reasoning? It seems to me that if Jesus knew what he was talking about, and your thinking is correct, then he really didn’t mean, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” You suggest that some will be (or might be) saved without learning of Jesus or doing His will. Maybe, you can help me . . . and others . . . understand the scriptural basis for your reasoning. There seems to be an obvious disagreement between your reasoning and what the Lord plainly says.

Just wondering . . . perhaps, you could also throw in a few pointers about 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. Those verses leave me with the distinct impression that we must know God and obey the gospel of Christ. What other scriptures am I overlooking that are relevant to this discussion?

. . . Denny

 

[Aaron11]

Aaron,

Your reasoning strongly reminds me of a previous discussion i.e. page 76, post #751.

What scripture(s) do you use when you "teach on baptism?" I couldn't help but notice that you didn't use any in this discussion. Your points are . . . well, they are just your points . . . nothing more, nothing less.

Yep FloCol, my points are my points. Take them for what they are worth. I never claimed to be God and never claimed my thoughts to be perfect.

How do you feel about a passage of scripture like 1 Peter 4:11a, "Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God" . . . (NRSV)? While you speculate that God will overlook "involuntary ignorance," how do you think he feels about willful ignorance?

Is there such a thing as willful ignorance? If so, I doubt God likes it.

I would like to explore your reasoning in more depth. If the involuntary ignorant are excused from baptism, wouldn't the same reasoning also exclude them from the necessity of having faith? If your reasoning is correct, then we really shouldn't even make a "hasty generalization" such as faith being required for salvation. But that would present a real dilemma when we read Heb. 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please God" . . . (NRSV). In essence, your line of reasoning is that some will (or may be) saved through grace alone. While it is true that the grace of God has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), all will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14), therefore, the logical conclusion is that there must be more involved in salvation than just grace. (Isn't that what Ephesians 2:8-9 plainly says?)What factors did Jesus say were necessary for salvation in Mark 16:16? What factors did the apostle Peter say were necessary for salvation in Acts 2:38? What factors do you say are necessary for salvation?

. . . Denny

All things considered, I still don't think it would make sense for a loving and just God to throw people in hell who He loved who never had a chance. Sorry for saying, "I think", I guess I am just being honest with myself. Do you think?

 

[Philo]

Aaron,

Just wondering . . . how would you explain John 14:1-6 using your present line of reasoning? It seems to me that if Jesus knew what he was talking about, and your thinking is correct, then he really didn’t mean, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” You suggest that some will be (or might be) saved without learning of Jesus or doing His will. Maybe, you can help me . . . and others . . . understand the scriptural basis for your reasoning. There seems to be an obvious disagreement between your reasoning and what the Lord plainly says.

Just wondering . . . perhaps, you could also throw in a few pointers about 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. Those verses leave me with the distinct impression that we must know God and obey the gospel of Christ. What other scriptures am I overlooking that are relevant to this discussion?

. . . Denny

It's kinda a moot point. No one has the choice to not know that there is a God out there, because there is. In Romans, Paul refers to how the pagans recognized there was a God, even though they did not know who He is, because His existance is self-evident. He also taught that there was a Law written up mens' hearts, men who never knew the Law of the Hebrews but nevertheless had righteousness apart from that.

Who are you to tell God who he will save and who he will not? How do you know that you are even saved?

 

[Philo]

Also, old school LT Krew back in da hizzouse.

 

[Florida College]

Yep FloCol, my points are my points. Take them for what they are worth. I never claimed to be God and never claimed my thoughts to be perfect.


Is there such a thing as willful ignorance? If so, I doubt God likes it.


All things considered, I still don't think it would make sense for a loving and just God to throw people in hell who He loved who never had a chance. Sorry for saying, "I think", I guess I am just being honest with myself. Do you think?

Aaron,

Ever notice Cain's response to God's question in Genesis 4:9? Cain feign's ignorance - - but he really knows where Abel is! On a similar note, ever know of a Christian that has been taught 1 Peter 4:11a, but just acts like the passage is not there? Likewise, they feign ignorance. They know better, but just refuse to acknowledge and do what the passage demands.

Another example of this principle can be found in Acts 5:1-10. Ananias and Sapphira both "played dumb." I have no reason to believe that their action was acceptable to God.

Why do you have to guess about being honest with yourself? I imagine deep down that you know if you are or not. God surely knows (Hebrews 4:13)!

Believe it or not, I do think. I spend quite a bit of time studying the scriptures. Aside from this, I have even spent several hours over the past months looking at the various writings of men like Cecil Hook. I learned much from this old, frustrated preacher. Obviously, you are quick to realize that I find very little value in what he promotes. I pray that he is senile . . . and not accountable to God for the reasoning and thinking that he has helped implant in young, gullible minds. As for his young students, I pray that their zeal be coupled with knowledge (Romans 10:1-2).

One question: Do you ever study the scriptures? No, I don't mean the what-ifs, the guesses, the I-think-so's, or other forms of speculation. And I surely don't mean Cecil Hook's Free-In-Whatever series. I mean just plain ole Bible study. If so, why not tell us about Mark 16:16? Or Acts 2:38? Or tell us why Colossians 3:17 doesn't mean what it says?

. . . Denny

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Florida College Brethren,

Perhaps, I missed something.

I understand Jesus in Matthew 11:20-24 to be discussing the lack of repentance among the people of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. These people were without excuse. Jesus had performed “mighty works” there, but they refused to repent. These cities are contrasted with wicked cities that God had previously condemned . . . Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom. Jesus points out that these cities, even in their wickedness, would have repented if they had seen the mighty works which he had done. This conclusion does not give a favorable opinion of the faithfulness of the Jewish cities (and people) that Jesus is addressing.

Matt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His everlasting power and Godhood; so that they are without excuse:

Your quote: “He knew what would have saved Sodom but chose not too” is not a valid conclusion to be drawn from Matt. 11:20-24. In this text, Jesus’ reasoning is simply that the people of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum are totally without excuse, and should view their action (lack of repentance) as being worthy of God’s wrath.

what ever florida......

Galatians 5:22 is a passage we have previously looked at. It lists the fruit of the Spirit (continuing in vs. 23). The fruit of the Spirit is contrasted with the works of the flesh in the previous verses (vs. 19-21). As we consider the fruit of the Spirit of “faith” or faithfulness, the question becomes: “How does the Holy Spirit guide the Christian to develop faith?” Romans 10:17 gives us the answer, “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” We can see clearly how this process works in Acts 16:30-33. The Philippian jailor desires to be saved (vs. 30). Paul and Silas tell him what he must do - - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” (vs. 31). Then they preached the word to him (vs. 32). Then, we determine in vs. 33 that the word brought forth faith, because we find that the jailor and his family were baptized. This understanding is in harmony with Mark 16:16, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.”

Mark 4:9And He said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked them the parable. 11 And He said unto them,Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand ; lest at any time they should be converted, and there sins be forgiven them.


john 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.....

when given to JC
Eph 1:4 before the foundation of the world

1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” It is necessary that we correctly understand the Spirit’s role in baptism. The events of Acts chapter 8 demonstrate the Spirit’s role. Philip is directed by the Holy Spirit to the Ethiopian eunuch (vs. 29). Philip, beginning at the scripture the eunuch was reading, Isaiah 53:7b-8 (vs. 30-33), “preached Jesus to him” (vs. 35). We can then easily determine from the following verses that the baptism that Philip preached was a baptism in water - - not the baptism of the Holy Spirit (vs. 36-39). Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:20-21 tells us why the eunuch was so anxious to be baptized.

The eunuch was already an OT believer
vs 27 came to Jerusalem to worship
vs 30 Phillip us quote from Isaiah...He did not say WHO?
what did He believe?
vs. 37 I believe that JC is the Son of God
right there He was Baptised into the Body by the Spirit
1 cor 12:13



Ephesians 1:4 does not say that God decides who is to receive grace. Look at the verse carefully. That is not what it says. You would have the verse say something that it doesn’t - - something that would clearly contradict

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath said good words about us with all spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as He[Father] hath chosen us in Him[JC] before the foundation of the world, that we should be [not right know but in future] holy and without blame before Him in love.


what are you reading???

Titus 2:11, which plainly says, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.”

appeared is not a great word made available is better


Eph. 1:4 says, “Just as God chose us [the saints, or faithful of vs.1) before the foundation of the world.” The bible student must decide if the saints are chosen individually, or as a group. Calvinists say they are chosen individually, but have yet to harmonize that reasoning with other scriptures. Whatever approach one decides must agree with Jesus’ words in Mark 16:15-16. Consider: Why would the apostles be charged with taking the gospel to “every creature,” if “every creature” did not have the free-will to choose whether or not they would obey the Lord?

Since God is all knowing BUT WE His servant do not know who is ear taged so we as servant are commanded to tell every one when the spirit give opportunity

Man does have the free-will to choose. Joshua recognized this (Joshua 24:15) during Old Testament times. God’s grace has been extended to all men, but the message of salvation through Jesus must be accepted and obeyed (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 . . . consider vs.10 - - “those who believe” are those who came to “know” and “obey” God in vs.8). The Hebrew writer states it this way: “He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (5:9). Jesus stated it this way: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk. 16:16).

What factors do you say are necessary for salvation? Would you disagree with the Lord in Mark 16:16? With Peter in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-21? With Paul in Acts 22:16?

. . . Denny

In Salvation ....God sovernity dictates who will be saved

whether ones sees How God is working in the believer is were Free will of man but God warns in Hebrews 12 that punishment comes to a son if not doing His will

 

[Florida College]

It's kinda a moot point. No one has the choice to not know that there is a God out there, because there is. In Romans, Paul refers to how the pagans recognized there was a God, even though they did not know who He is, because His existance is self-evident. He also taught that there was a Law written up mens' hearts, men who never knew the Law of the Hebrews but nevertheless had righteousness apart from that.

Who are you to tell God who he will save and who he will not? How do you know that you are even saved?

Philo,

I suppose you should ask the apostle Paul this same question. After all, he told Timothy to . . . well, you can read it for yourself in 2 Timothy 4:1-4. After all, how could he expect Timothy to go out and preach something as abstract as the word, right?

When I look at a passage like Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, or 1 Peter 3:20-21, I don't view my role as one who tells God who he will save and who he will not save. Rather, he tells all of us the requirements for salvation. It is up to us to accept, obey, and teach them.

Concerning my . . . your's . . . everyone's salvation, let me suggest 2 Corinthians 13:5, 10:12, and John 8:9 as starting points. Those passages should give you some things to think about.

The posts that are addressed to Aaron also apply to you. Don't be bashful. Answer the questions. Or did Cecil not address those points in his books?

. . . Denny

 

[Florida College]

The eunuch was already an OT believer
vs 27 came to Jerusalem to worship
vs 30 Phillip us quote from Isaiah...He did not say WHO?
what did He believe?
vs. 37 I believe that JC is the Son of God
right there He was Baptised into the Body by the Spirit
1 cor 12:13

Brethren,

One part of your response quickly caught my attention (the quoted section above). I am looking as closely at Acts 8:37 as I can get, but I honestly don't read where the eunuch was baptized by the Spirit. I don't find it anywhere in this text. Perhaps, you can quote the verse and show exactly where the Holy Spirit baptism occurs.

The only baptism that I can read of in Acts 8:35-39 is the eunuch's baptism in water. This harmonizes with both 1 Peter 3:20-21 and Ephesians 4:5 (one baptism). If I understand you correctly, you are reading two baptisms into the eunuch's conversion. According to Eph. 4:5, you cannot have two. You need to work on this some more.

Thanks for responding.

. . . Denny

 

[Philo]

The posts that are addressed to Aaron also apply to you. Don't be bashful. Answer the questions. Or did Cecil not address those points in his books?

. . . Denny

LOL!

You know, it's exactly that tone that got our last little foray into talking at eachother closed.

If a newspaper reports it's gonna be morning tomorrow when the sun comes up, and you read that fact, does it give me any right to tell you that you would have never thought of that had the newspaper not told you? Man, that would sure be insulting if someone assumed you couldn't figure out the sun was coming up tomorrow by yourself. I bet that would make you pretty irritated if someone even implied as much.

From now on, try paraphrasing the Bible instead of just telling us what's in the verses. Versification, as you may well know, is an unbibilical altering of the original texts. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that God told us that we were allowed to take His divinely appointed Word and transform it into an encyclopedia.

If you look at the Bible as an encyclopedia, then I am very sorry.

 

[Philo]

[noflame]

 

[Apathe]

What factors do you say are necessary for salvation? Would you disagree with the Lord in Mark 16:16? With Peter in Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:20-21? With Paul in Acts 22:16?

. . . Denny

And again...what you state here is absolutely consistant with what we find in early church history (which nobody even bothered to address earlier in this thread other than "well I'm gonna do what I believe the Bible says...who cares about history"). All known early church history shows that the early Christians believed baptism to be necessary for salvation. Why would there be so many early writings introducing sprinkling or pouring if the individual was sick or if no body of water was present (when immersion was clearly the baptismal method taught in the New Testament) if they didn't clearly believe baptism was necessary? The first heresy involving baptism was actually the opposite of faith only which is baptismal regeneration (or the idea that baptism alone will save you). The heresy of faith only came centuries later. If the NT really taught faith only, then we would expect to see evidence of it in the 1st century because many of those churches were still under guidance by the holy spirit and the laying on of hands done by the apostles. You guys who are clinging to faith only are stretching the message of the scriptures to try to fit your theology and completely disregarding historical facts that show you are wrong.

 

[Florida College]

LOL!

You know, it's exactly that tone that got our last little foray into talking at eachother closed.

If a newspaper reports it's gonna be morning tomorrow when the sun comes up, and you read that fact, does it give me any right to tell you that you would have never thought of that had the newspaper not told you? Man, that would sure be insulting if someone assumed you couldn't figure out the sun was coming up tomorrow by yourself. I bet that would make you pretty irritated if someone even implied as much.

From now on, try paraphrasing the Bible instead of just telling us what's in the verses. Versification, as you may well know, is an unbibilical altering of the original texts. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible that God told us that we were allowed to take His divinely appointed Word and transform it into an encyclopedia.

If you look at the Bible as an encyclopedia, then I am very sorry.

Philo,

Unless I'm mistaken, it was you and Aaron that got the last discussion closed . . . just as you are trying to do now.

Now, would it really make a difference if I paraprased or told you what was in the verses? No, it wouldn't.

I can't help but notice that you didn't use any scriptures.

I do not look at the Bible as an encyclopedia. I look at it as the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25), that which provides us with everything that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3), and that which equips us for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

. . . Denny

 

[Florida College]

editing previously removed content.

Philo,

Thanks for your commentary on my spiritual life.

Just a few quick observations.
* You used no scripture . . . again.
* I would be pleased that you are praying for my spiritual well-being, but since you have trouble controlling your language, I suggest you spend at least a few moments and read James 3:8-12.

I will seriously consider some of the suggestions that you have made. For instance, your suggestion that I take a walk seems like an excellent idea. I need to be in better physical condition. Perhaps then, I could walk more and be that little man that you think I am.

I do not imagine God as being juvenile and throwing a temper tantrum as you describe. But I do not loose sight of Romans 11:22, "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness. if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." That drives me to maintain the utmost reverence for God.

I appreciate your request that God have mercy on my soul. But that will only happen if I can "see" to remove the vast amounts of lumber in my eyes that you envision me having (although you didn't mention it, this is an allusion to Matthew 7:3-5).

Now, why don't you settle down, and by the use of persuasive, scriptural arguments, establish truth in the face of error?

. . . Denny

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren,

One part of your response quickly caught my attention (the quoted section above). I am looking as closely at Acts 8:37 as I can get, but I honestly don't read where the eunuch was baptized by the Spirit. I don't find it anywhere in this text. Perhaps, you can quote the verse and show exactly where the Holy Spirit baptism occurs.

The only baptism that I can read of in Acts 8:35-39 is the eunuch's baptism in water. This harmonizes with both 1 Peter 3:20-21 and Ephesians 4:5 (one baptism). If I understand you correctly, you are reading two baptisms into the eunuch's conversion. According to Eph. 4:5, you cannot have two. You need to work on this some more.

Thanks for responding.

. . . Denny

1 cor 12:12-13 For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body......

romans 4:5
romans 8:9
and so on you just do not understand these verses and
you continuely argue with them

 

[Aaron11]

Philo,

Thanks for your commentary on my spiritual life.

Just a few quick observations.
* You used no scripture . . . again.
* I would be pleased that you are praying for my spiritual well-being, but since you have trouble controlling your language, I suggest you spend at least a few moments and read James 3:8-12.

I will seriously consider some of the suggestions that you have made. For instance, your suggestion that I take a walk seems like an excellent idea. I need to be in better physical condition. Perhaps then, I could walk more and be that little man that you think I am.

I do not imagine God as being juvenile and throwing a temper tantrum as you describe. But I do not loose sight of Romans 11:22, "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness. if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." That drives me to maintain the utmost reverence for God.

I appreciate your request that God have mercy on my soul. But that will only happen if I can "see" to remove the vast amounts of lumber in my eyes that you envision me having (although you didn't mention it, this is an allusion to Matthew 7:3-5).

Now, why don't you settle down, and by the use of persuasive, scriptural arguments, establish truth in the face of error?

. . . Denny

Den,

I don't think an argument has to be directly out of the Bible to be correct. For example, 2+2=4 even though it doesn't say so in the Bible.

Also, I think that Philo was suggesting that you look at the big picture of the gospel. If you are hoping that someone is senile, you probably aren't loving like you should. I am working on loving others as I should as well. It is an obstacle that will not be overcome in this lifetime, but we can work on it.

 

[Aaron11]

I do not look at the Bible as an encyclopedia. I look at it as the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25), that which provides us with everything that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3), and that which equips us for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

. . . Denny

As long as you view the Bible as such, you and I will never agree on much of anything.

 

[Aaron11]

Aaron,

Just wondering . . . how would you explain John 14:1-6 using your present line of reasoning? It seems to me that if Jesus knew what he was talking about, and your thinking is correct, then he really didn’t mean, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” You suggest that some will be (or might be) saved without learning of Jesus or doing His will. Maybe, you can help me . . . and others . . . understand the scriptural basis for your reasoning. There seems to be an obvious disagreement between your reasoning and what the Lord plainly says.

If an involuntarily ignorant person were to be saved, it would be by Christ and His blood. So, no I do not think that it contradicts Christ's teachings.