Idleprocess, sorry it's taken me a little longer than usuauly to respond to what you've written. This threads been getting a lot of replies lately (a good thing
) so I hope that our discussion hasn't gotten too lost in all the posting.
idleprocess said:
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. He has a knack for being able to come up with situations that help in gaining a better understanding of what we're talking about. Did you have any thoughts or comments about it besides that?
I think we need to find our common ground here;
I agree
That makes having a discussion much more profitable.
The Bible is the infallible Word of God. It, therefore, does NOT contradict itself, ever.
I agree with you 100%. However, I do think that there are a few things that need to be added in order to clarify exactly what we mean by your statement.
I have become convinced, through studying with people of different religious groups, that it is possible to find support for almost anything that one chooses to beleive from the Scriptures. I have talked with one man several times for several hours during which he attempted to show me, from the Scriptures, that Jesus Christ was nothing more than a created being. I don't believe this, but the point is that when he was looking for support he didn't turn to a book written by a man, but to the word of God.
Also, let's consider the encounter that Christ has with satan while in the wilderness. Look in particular at Luke 4:9-11. Satan was trying to tempt Jesus into sinning through using the
Scriptures!
There is something written in the Psalms, however, that is a good guide for helping us overcome this problem, indeed, I believe it to be God's answer for it.
Psalm 119:160a ASV
The sum of thy word is truth
When we consider the word of God and look into it to learn what is pleasing to the Lord, we must consider the
SUM of what it teaches. I believe that this is absolutely necessary to properly understand what the Scriptures teach, and it's something I believe that we could all work at together while discussing on this forum.
So with all that said, the sum of what that Scriptures teach is the Truth. We must remember that it is only the Truth that will set us free, and therefore that is what we must strive to learn and understand.
Since Lilly of the Valley brought up John 3, lets look at it.
Okay.
The water refers to the natural birth.
The water refers to the Word of God.
The water refers to the Holy Spirit.
The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist.
The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation.
I'm assuimg that you are just listing all of the different ways that you've heard this passage explained before. If that's not correct, please let me know.
I'm going to go ahead and quote the whole passage from the Scriptures and then we can start from there:
John 3:1-11 ASV
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: (2) the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him. (3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. (8) The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things? (11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
You must be born AGAIN would imply that verse 5 is referencing one's 'natural birth'.
This is exactly why I've quoted the entire passage, so that we could look at it within its context and see which of those things you've listed earlier is really applicable.
If you'll look at the first red section in the quote, the very first thing that Christ tells Nicodemus is that one must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God. He doesn't mention or reference anything about a physical birth, that is, He's speaking strictly about the
new birth.
The orange section immediately following Christ's statement contains a couple of questions that Nicodemus asks in regard to the statement that Jesus just made. This means that they are in the context of what Jesus just said about the
new birth. Nicodemus is attempting to gain an understanding of what Christ means, and the only birth that he was familiar with was the birth that he already experienced.
It may also be helpful to note that the Jews were born physically into a covenant relationship with God. This is probably the reason why the first thing Nicodemus thinks of is being born again from his mother's womb. There is, however, a new birth that now takes place, and we are under a New Covenant. We are no longer physically born into a covenant relationship with God as the Jews were, but we still must be born into one. This is what Jesus is attempting to explain.
In verse 5 the context is still that of the
new birth. Christ's first statement was about it, Nicodemus's questions were about it, and now Jesus's explanation are about it, too. In fact, if we look at the two statements side by side, they are parallel.
Except one be born
anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God
Except one be born
of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
"Water and spirit" are defining what Jesus meant when He said born anew. It might also be helpful to note, as I've bolded in the quote, that the word 'and' is between the words 'water' and 'spirit'. That is "born of water
and the spirit". It does
not say born of water and born of the spirit, because it's only referring to
one birth, that is the
new one.
With this in mind there are only one possible thing from the list you've made that would even make sense here: that water is referring to baptism.
I know this view is not the most popular interpretation and it is just that, an interpretation. Lets get back to contradictions, consider these verses that declare how one is saved;
Keeping in mind what you have said earlier about the Bible being the word of God, and then even the other things that we have added to that, this
necessarily mean that there can only be
1 correct meaning of the Scriptures: there cannot be multiple 'interpretations' only what
God intended.
It seems as though the Bible IS contradictory, but it most certainly is NOT.
I agree with you completely.
This is all that I'm going to post for right now, because it's starting to get a little on the long side...maybe a lot...but I'm looking forward to hearing back from you about this, and I'm really looking forward to our continued discussion
Thank you Denny for working hard to preach what the Scriptures teach. I admire your dedication to the word of God and look forward to all of your future comments 
