Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Aaron11]

I think it would be a mistake to say that everyone that will be saved will be baptized, because I know that God is loving and fair and I don't think of it as loving or fair to punish someone that never had a chance to know about Christ or about baptism (like the Native Americans in 200 A.D. ... just as an example). Of course, I know that batism is important and we should follow Christ's example in baptism. I teach baptism as an act of obedience to the Lord, but I just don't want to make a hasty generalization by saying that baptism is absolutely necessary to enter heaven. God will be just and loving. If you think it is just and loving to send a person to hell that never heard the name Jesus, then it is reasonable to assume that God would do such a thing. However, if you see this as unjust and unloving, then it is unreasonable to believe that our Lord would do such a thing. Personally, I think that the power in the blood of Christ is overwhelming and too great to be stopped by involuntary ignorance. Realize that God sent His Son (only begotten), to die because He loves people so much. Do you think that God would deny some people the chance of living with Him eternally just because they live in a remote location on the globe? IMHO, I seriously doubt it.

 

[Colabomb]

Without being offensive, if I believe that God is Gracious to them although they have not heard the Gospel, what do you think the next logical step would be?


I don't think God is going to condemn someone who has not been Baptized, just because they have not heard of Baptism. I am not a moster, and neither is God.

But, if someone goes through life in this country with the Bible in hand, churches that have Baptism (almost all of them), and people showing you that it is necessary, and they still refuse to follow Christ's Command of Baptism.... that is different.

 

[evangelist]

Explain to me what you're trying to prove with this verse. That would really help me answer your question. After I answer this one, you'll respond to my other post?

Look forward to hearing from you

the question is do you think righteous people should enter heaven??

What I am pointing is that no one is righteous and perfect except Jesus so in that verse it is saying because of Jesis Christ and whoever believe is already righteous because of jesus so without the water baptism a person is still righteous so they have a ticket to heaven.

The question to you which I made even easier is to just say a yes or no.


So can I get a yes or no do righteous people go to heaven or not???


God Blerss

 

[The teacher]

Yes, righteous people go to heaven, but they are made righteous through their faith in Jesus Christ:

Philippians 3
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So the question is, is water baptism a work or is it an act of faith in Jesus Christ? By all the scriptures that deal with this subject, it certainly appears that water baptism is an act of faith, just as repentance, so in that sense it is required. Just my thoughts...I don't mean to butt-in on a private conversation.

God bless.

 

[cindylou]

I apologize if this point has been made before, I haven't read the previous 940+ posts

If someone were to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, then 15 minutes later, when crossing the street to be baptized is hit by a bus and die's before he/she can do so, will that person go to heaven or not?

If not, then Ephesians 2:8-9 must be wrong, no?

This argument is well made at the CARM.org site that I'd link to, but I'm not allowed to yet.

idle

Idle, That person will go to heaven. The Church has always held that baptism is necessary for Salvation, but God will always not forsake the hearts of men. There are three "kinds" of baptism...mind you, only one is truly a sacrament, the other two provide the fruit of baptism---salvation.

1)Baptism by water is the Sacrament. This is clearly demonstrated in the Gospels and passed on to the Church through the Apostles. No one should be prohibited from recieving this Sacrament. Baptism frees us from original sin and joins us to new life in the Church (Body of Believers).

2)Baptism by blood. We DO NOT substitute blood for water. This refers to all those people who were martyred for their belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, from days of old to modern times. These people may not have had the opportunity to be baptised traditionally.

3)Baptism of desire. This refers to all those people who DESIRE baptism, but DIE before receiving it...your man in the auto accident on his way to be baptised. It also refers to those who WOULD DESIRE baptism IF they knew it was NECESSARY. Feasably, we can say that the "theif on the cross" fell into this category. He already believed...if he had known baptism was necessary/or could have physically recieved it, he would have.

Hope this helps clarify things.

 

[aggie03]

the question is do you think righteous people should enter heaven??

I understand perfectly well what the question was . The reason why I couldn't answer your question with a yes or no without asking you what you meant is because I needed to hear what you think makes a person righteous

What I am pointing is that no one is righteous and perfect except Jesus so in that verse it is saying because of Jesis Christ and whoever believe is already righteous because of jesus so without the water baptism a person is still righteous so they have a ticket to heaven.

This is the reason why I asked you to explain what you were trying to prove I don't think that faith alone makes one righteous. I don't even believe that baptism makes one righteous. I don't believe that even if someone were to do everything that the Scriptures teach as necessary for salvation - that doesn't even make them righteous.

The ONLY reason that anyone will ever be able to stand before God pure and clean is because of God's grace.

So then, the focal question of our entire discussion really ought to be "What has God said is necessary for us to do in order that we might receive His grace?"

I get a yes or no do righteous people go to heaven or not???

There are no righteous people in and of themselves, onlt those who have been forgiven by the grace of God And those people receive eternal salvation.

Your turn now

 

[aggie03]

Glad to be here Thanks for the warm welcome

ALL that's required for salvation is your faith and His Grace. No less, no more.

I imagine that we're going to spend a great deal of time talking about this Before we get too in depth with Ephesians 2, I wanted to look at some of the other things you've said.

The Gift of God. The very nature of a gift is that it's free. If in order to recieve a gift, you must first, 'do something' it's no longer a gift.

I disagree with you here. This is what I wanted to talk about before we moved on. Just because there is something that's required of you in no means that something given is no longer a gift. I'm going to quote an example previously posted by one of my brothers in a formal debate:

***Quote from GQAggie04 ***

Webster’s on grace:
1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

Nowhere, in this definition are conditions precluded. To demonstrate this, let’s look at an example using this definition from a human to human standpoint.

The majority of individuals reading this post have at some time received a Christmas gift. Almost none of us would claim that we have earned the sweaters that Grandma knits us. It is an unmerited grandmotherly assistance given her grandchild , or a virtue coming from Grandma , or a state of warmth enjoyed through Grandmotherly grace . However, even though we have done nothing to earn the sweater that Grandma has freely given to us, there are at least two conditions necessary for us to benefit from it. Since Grandma is naturally going to wrap our sweater, we must first remove the wrapping paper. A sweater can’t keep you very warm if it is still in the wrapper. Secondly, we must accept the gift and take it with us. If we decide we don’t like our sweater, then we could always refuse to accept the gift and leave it at Grandma’s house.

Has meeting these necessary conditions in any way earned us Grandma’s gift? Of course not! But you show me the Christmas gift that was left unopened or left behind, and I’ll show you the Christmas gift that was not benefited from.

Show me a scripture that teaches grace precludes conditions.

*** End Quote ***

I'm eager to hear what you think about this example, idleprocess. Anyone who wishes to post their thoughts, I'm also eager to hear those as well

By Faith. Not Faith AND something else.

We're saved by God's grace and God's grace alone. The other things that we find in the Scriptures are conditions that have been placed upon receiving God's grace. Of course, we'll get more into this when we start talking about Ephesians.

I'm aware of the versus you quote that seem to make baptism a requirement for salvation. I'll be more than happy to go through those with you if you'd like.

Okay, that would be great . I'm sure that most of them will come again eventually in other things we talk about, but if you'd like to go through I'm more than willing. If you want, you can start in your reply to this, make them two separate replies, or even start a whole new thread. I only ask that if you start a new thread you let me know where it's located. I look forward to hearing back from you

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Baptisim is needed. Jonh 3:5 clearly states: "Most assuredly I say unto you, unless you are born of the spirit and of the water you cannot make it into the kingdom of God."

 

[idleprocess]

***Quote from GQAggie04 ***

But you show me the Christmas gift that was left unopened or left behind, and I’ll show you the Christmas gift that was not benefited from.

Very interesting indeed.

I think we need to find our common ground here;

The Bible is the infallible Word of God. It, therefore, does NOT contradict itself, ever.

I know, even among Christians of varying denominations, this may not be a given. But for the sake of this argument, let's say it is. The Bible does NOT contradict itself.

Since Lilly of the Valley brought up John 3, lets look at it.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5

The water refers to the natural birth.
The water refers to the Word of God.
The water refers to the Holy Spirit.
The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist.
The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

Looking at the context of chapter 3, Jesus says;

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:7

You must be born AGAIN would imply that verse 5 is referencing one's 'natural birth'.

I know this view is not the most popular interpretation and it is just that, an interpretation. Lets get back to contradictions, consider these verses that declare how one is saved;

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."

Rom. 5:1, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham."

Gal. 3:24 , "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

It seems as though the Bible IS contradictory, but it most certainly is NOT.

Paul tell's us the Gospel, which saves us all;

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

1 Corinthians 15:3-4

Jesus' Death, Burial and resurection.

Furthermore, if baptism is indeed a requirement for salvation why did Paul downplay, even exclude it?

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 1:14-17

I'm in no way the authority. These are merely my views, based on the Bible and my own relationship with the Almighty.

I'll re-iterate also my stance on baptism; That every Christian 'should' be baptized, not out of nessecity for salvation, but as a sign and seal of our covenant relationship with Jesus Christ.


idle

 

[Colabomb]

Very interesting indeed.

I think we need to find our common ground here;

The Bible is the infallible Word of God. It, therefore, does NOT contradict itself, ever.

I know, even among Christians of varying denominations, this may not be a given. But for the sake of this argument, let's say it is. The Bible does NOT contradict itself.

Since Lilly of the Valley brought up John 3, lets look at it.



The water refers to the natural birth.
The water refers to the Word of God.
The water refers to the Holy Spirit.
The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist.
The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

Looking at the context of chapter 3, Jesus says;



You must be born AGAIN would imply that verse 5 is referencing one's 'natural birth'.

I know this view is not the most popular interpretation and it is just that, an interpretation. Lets get back to contradictions, consider these verses that declare how one is saved;




It seems as though the Bible IS contradictory, but it most certainly is NOT.

Paul tell's us the Gospel, which saves us all;



Jesus' Death, Burial and resurection.

Furthermore, if baptism is indeed a requirement for salvation why did Paul downplay, even exclude it?



I'm in no way the authority. These are merely my views, based on the Bible and my own relationship with the Almighty.

I'll re-iterate also my stance on baptism; That every Christian 'should' be baptized, not out of nessecity for salvation, but as a sign and seal of our covenant relationship with Jesus Christ.


idle

The water refers to the natural birth.
The water refers to the Word of God.
The water refers to the Holy Spirit.
The water refers to the ministry of John the Baptist.
The water refers to the water of baptism as a requirement for salvation.

People throw this one out quickly, and it doesn't work (at least with me).

I do believe Baptism is necessary, but I do not use this verse to prove it, to me at least it is obvious He is speaking of birth.

 

[Colabomb]

Jesus' Death, Burial and resurection.

Is repentence of Sin necessary? Is Loving Christ necessary? Is Confession of Christ as Lord Necessary? Is confession of Sin necessary?

Obviously they are, and they are not mentioned in the above verse.

Again, lets look at the gift analogy. The Sacrifice is the Gift, Baptism Repentence etc. are the means of benefitting from/receiving the Gift.


(Oh HalleluJah! What a beautiful Gift indeed!)

 

[Florida College]

I think it would be a mistake to say that everyone that will be saved will be baptized, because I know that God is loving and fair and I don't think of it as loving or fair to punish someone that never had a chance to know about Christ or about baptism (like the Native Americans in 200 A.D. ... just as an example). Of course, I know that batism is important and we should follow Christ's example in baptism. I teach baptism as an act of obedience to the Lord, but I just don't want to make a hasty generalization by saying that baptism is absolutely necessary to enter heaven. God will be just and loving. If you think it is just and loving to send a person to hell that never heard the name Jesus, then it is reasonable to assume that God would do such a thing. However, if you see this as unjust and unloving, then it is unreasonable to believe that our Lord would do such a thing. Personally, I think that the power in the blood of Christ is overwhelming and too great to be stopped by involuntary ignorance. Realize that God sent His Son (only begotten), to die because He loves people so much. Do you think that God would deny some people the chance of living with Him eternally just because they live in a remote location on the globe? IMHO, I seriously doubt it.

Aaron,

Your reasoning strongly reminds me of a previous discussion i.e. page 76, post #751.

What scripture(s) do you use when you "teach on baptism?" I couldn't help but notice that you didn't use any in this discussion. Your points are . . . well, they are just your points . . . nothing more, nothing less.

How do you feel about a passage of scripture like 1 Peter 4:11a, "Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God" . . . (NRSV)? While you speculate that God will overlook "involuntary ignorance," how do you think he feels about willful ignorance?

I would like to explore your reasoning in more depth. If the involuntary ignorant are excused from baptism, wouldn't the same reasoning also exclude them from the necessity of having faith? If your reasoning is correct, then we really shouldn't even make a "hasty generalization" such as faith being required for salvation. But that would present a real dilemma when we read Heb. 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please God" . . . (NRSV). In essence, your line of reasoning is that some will (or may be) saved through grace alone. While it is true that the grace of God has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), all will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14), therefore, the logical conclusion is that there must be more involved in salvation than just grace. (Isn't that what Ephesians 2:8-9 plainly says?)What factors did Jesus say were necessary for salvation in Mark 16:16? What factors did the apostle Peter say were necessary for salvation in Acts 2:38? What factors do you say are necessary for salvation?

. . . Denny

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Aaron,

. In essence, your line of reasoning is that some will (or may be) saved through grace alone. While it is true that the grace of God has been extended to all (Titus 2:11), all will not be saved (Matthew 7:13-14), therefore, the logical conclusion is that there must be more involved in salvation than just grace. (Isn't that what Ephesians 2:8-9 plainly says?)What factors did Jesus say were necessary for salvation in Mark 16:16? What factors did the apostle Peter say were necessary for salvation in Acts 2:38? What factors do you say are necessary for salvation?

. . . Denny

OR God choses who he will save who he wills like in matt 11:20-24...He knew what would have saved Sodom but chose not too? Why to teach people about Himself with that situation.

He gives Faith....Gal 5:22
He baptizes..... 1 cor 12:13
He decides who to recieve Grace Eph 1:4

GOD's sovergity vs man's free will

Both are true

 

[Colabomb]

OR God choses who he will save who he wills like in matt 11:20-24...He knew what would have saved Sodom but chose not too? Why to teach people about Himself with that situation.

He gives Faith....Gal 5:22
He baptizes..... 1 cor 12:13
He decides who to recieve Grace Eph 1:4

GOD's sovergity vs man's free will

Both are true

I don't want to argue Calvinism, because that throws the discussion off, but I will say one thing....

If what you say is true, than man has no responsiblity for his sins.

He was predestined to Sin, and he was predestined not to repent of that sin. It seems to me that the God put forth by Calvinism is one that creates certain men to destroy.

Now, I don't want to argue Calvinism, and this is the last post on this thread I will post to that subject.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

QUOTE=Colabomb I don't want to argue Calvinism, because that throws the discussion off, but I will say one thing....

If what you say is true, than man has no responsiblity for his sins.

Why that the free will that we all have whether to obey God and live up to what He says about us [Eph 1:3 postional in christ truth] or to disobey and get punished since we are not living like sons [Hebrews 12:3-11]

He was predestined to Sin, and he was predestined not to repent of that sin. It seems to me that the God put forth by Calvinism is one that creates certain men to destroy.

Dan 12:2 , 1 john 3:9-10

Now, I don't want to argue Calvinism, and this is the last post on this thread I will post to that subject.


God who is all powerful says that these people will believe ......eph 1:4

are you calling God a liar?

Free will is still happening because with out God interfering We all chose not to Do God's plan ......

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Salvation ....God's soverignity

walk with God ...day by day...momment by moment ...FREE WILL

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

The only thing that seperates christianity from any other religion is "Grace"

just thought Iw ould throw that into the pot.

 

[aggie03]

The only thing that seperates christianity from any other religion is "Grace"

just thought Iw ould throw that into the pot.

And that's exactly what we're talking about . What has God laid out as being the conditions for receiving His grace?

*** EDIT***

Just because grace is involved, doesn't mean that nothing is expected of us in order to receive it.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

And that's exactly what we're talking about . What has God laid out as being the conditions for receiving His grace?

*** EDIT***

Just because grace is involved, doesn't mean that nothing is expected of us in order to receive it.

God giving it too us ....HIS CHOICE

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God.

aggie03 keeps trying to put his theology in the bible but it does not add up

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Faith is not an action ......Hebrews 11:1