Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[evangelist]

John 3,5

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus wants a symbolic(water) and spiritual Baptism.

Hi,
Prode

Do you think every where in the bible where water or baptism is written it mean the natural water baptism of John the baptist???

John 3:5 and the reference to the water is Eph5:26.

The word which is the water is heard first and the seed is planted by the Word of God then the new birth , and this is what said in John 3:5.

God Bless

 

[Prode]

Hi, Evangelist

John 3, 6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


......the water in John 3,5 can only represent a symbolic Baptism...




Hi,
Prode

 

[evangelist]

Hi, Evangelist

John 3, 6
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


......the water in John 3,5 can only represent a symbolic Baptism...




Hi,
Prode

yes the flesh give birth to flesh is the natural birth by a women.

But the spiritual is the new born birth which is in the inside and not the natural.
Even the bread or the water which is the Word of God starts to work on the inside hearts.

God Bless

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I agree. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21 do seem, in particular, to be very clear in their meaning.

when out of context, yes.

 

[aggie03]

Do you think every where in the bible where water or baptism is written it mean the natural water baptism of John the baptist???

John 3:5 and the reference to the water is Eph5:26.

The word which is the water is heard first and the seed is planted by the Word of God then the new birth , and this is what said in John 3:5.

God Bless

I'm going to have to disagree with you here . I don't believe that the word of God is the water, but rather the seed. If we look at the parable of the sower we can find Jesus himself refering to the word of God as the seed:

Luke 8:11 ASV

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

So I believe that the water in John 3:5 is referring to baptism.

 

[aggie03]

when out of context, yes.

Acts 2:29-42 ASV

Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day. (30) Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set one upon his throne; (31) he foreseeing this spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. (32) This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses. (33) Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear. (34) For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, (35) Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. (36) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. (37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? (38) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (39) For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him. (40) And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. (41) They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. (42) And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers.

The first large section that is in blue is the last part of Peter's sermon that he preached on the day of pentecost. He ends it by telling the audience that Jesus, whom they crucified was both Lord and Christ.

The audience here believes what Peter says. They believe that Jesus was indeed both Lord and Christ because when they heard this, in verse 37, it says that they were pricked in their hearts. They understood what Peter had just said, they believed, and they were convicted by their sins.

Does this belief save them? Let's read on...

Also in verse 37, we find the reply of the Jews to the remarks that Peter made. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This is a very sincere question. They understood the condition that they were in, they knew that they had sinned and they wanted to be right with God. Now, understanding that they already believed, let's see what Peter's response is to them.

(38) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter doesn't say to them, "Well, you already believe, so you're okay now." He doesn't say this because there's still something that they have to do which must follow their belief. Make no mistake, believing is absolutely necessary for man to be saved, but there are other things that are also necessary!

Peter tells them that they must repent, and then be baptized for the remission of their sins. If we were to give this sentence to the average 10 year old and ask them what Peter said is necessary, I am willing to bet that without any coaching they would answer "Repent and be baptized." The message is very plain and simple to understand - baptism in the name of Jesus is for the remission of sins.

After Peter's reply we see that he kept preaching to the crowd, exhorting them to save themselves from their crooked generation. Those who received his word, that is accepted what he was saying, were baptized. Let's take another look at the verse where this occurs:

(41) They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

Those who accepted what he was saying were baptized, and only then were they added unto them. This is very straightforward in showing that at the point where they believed they were not yet saved. However, after they repented and were then baptized for the remission of their sins, then, and only then, were they added unto their number.

We can also see that after all of this happened, they continued on in the things that the Apostles taught them, in the breaking of bread and prayer (v. 42).

I would like to know now, how is any of this taken out of context?

 

[evangelist]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here . I don't believe that the word of God is the water, but rather the seed. If we look at the parable of the sower we can find Jesus himself refering to the word of God as the seed:

Luke 8:11 ASV

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

So I believe that the water in John 3:5 is referring to baptism.

why do you turn the water into the seed and jump to another issue are you JHW??

Do you know A seed needs water to grow??

So how many times do you think water is use??
The first is in the natural in the women , and then the spiritual, and again you mention the water baptism for the outward man that is three time water is being used so what up here??


Also, 1 Peter 1:23 reads, "Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever."

It should now be clear to all that the Word of God is instrumental in one being "born again," and is also likened unto WATER. (See also James 1:18,21). Bearing all this in mind, we can now see that the "water" of Jn. 3:5 CAN be the Word of God. It must also be noted that the same Greek word translated "born" in Jn. 3:5 is translated "begotten" in 1 Cor. 4:15. This is IMPORTANT since Paul begat ALL at Corinth through the Gospel (1 Cor. 4:15), but he did NOT baptize ALL at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:14-16)!


Probably the CLEAREST and EASIEST way to resolve this enigma of the "water" in Jn. 3:5 is to focus our attention on JN. 20:31. THIS VERSE IS VERY IMPORTANT! In fact, it declares THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK OF JOHN, which obviously includes Jn. 3:5. It states that it was written so that we "might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." In other words, John was written so that we could learn about salvation and become Christians. Therefore, the MOST IMPORTANT book in the entire Bible to study to learn about salvation is John, and NOT ACTS as some would like us to believe so they can emphasize certain verses! (Were YOU taught this?) Furthermore, Christian baptism is ONLY referred to in the beginning of chapter 4 in this Gospel, with NO POSSIBLE connection with salvation! (John's Gospel de-emphasizes water baptism. Conversely, it emphasizes TRUST IN JESUS ALONE FOR SALVATION!) To add force to the importance of John's Gospel regarding this controversy about water baptism, it should be mentioned that it was written in about 90 A.D. This means it was written AFTER Pentecost, where Acts 2:38 was first preached. THIS TRUTH ALONE IS DEVASTATING TO SOME GROUPS!

Finally, the entire third chapter of John is summed up in Jn. 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath (present tense) everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." NOTICE: The emphasis is placed on believing in Jesus. (Repentance is understood in the meaning of belief in Jesus which brings salvation.)


God Bless

 

[aggie03]

why do you turn the water into the seed and jump to another issue are you JHW??

I didn't turn the word into anything. Christ clearly and plainly says in the parable of the sower that the word is the seed. You can read it for yourself if you would like. You can find the parable of the sower in Luke 8:4-15. In verse 11, Jesus says that the seed is the word.

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but what does that have to do with what Jesus said the word is?

Do you know A seed needs water to grow??

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. Was there something I missed in an earlier post?

So how many times do you think water is use??
The first is in the natural in the women , and then the spiritual, and again you mention the water baptism for the outward man that is three time water is being used so what up here??

Again, I don't understand the point that you're trying to make.

Also, 1 Peter 1:23 reads, "Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever."

If you'll notice in this verse that you've quoted from 1 Peter 1, the word is called an incorruptable see - not water. This harmonizes perfectly with what Jesus said in the parable of the sower.

It should now be clear to all that the Word of God is instrumental in one being "born again," and is also likened unto WATER. (See also James 1:18,21).

It's not clear to me at all. I've read the verses that you quoted from James and nowhere is the word of God called water. But since you've mentioned it, in James 1:21 it says that we are in humility to receive the word implanted. Can you plant water? No, but you plant a seed. Just as Christ said in Luke 8:11, the word of God is the seed.

Bearing all this in mind, we can now see that the "water" of Jn. 3:5 CAN be the Word of God.

No, I don't see how the water can be the word of God. The word is not water, but the seed.

It must also be noted that the same Greek word translated "born" in Jn. 3:5 is translated "begotten" in 1 Cor. 4:15. This is IMPORTANT since Paul begat ALL at Corinth through the Gospel (1 Cor. 4:15), but he did NOT baptize ALL at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:14-16)!

The problem here is that you aren't considering the SUM of God's word in making your judgments. If we were only to look a few verses we can prove almost any doctrine we choose. This however is something that we cannot do. Psalm 119:160 tells us that the SUM of God's word is Truth, not just one or two verses of it.

All of the Christians at Corinth were baptized after hearing the gospel - part of which is baptism. This is in accordance with command given by Christ in Mark 16:16.

Probably the CLEAREST and EASIEST ... it should be mentioned that it was written in about 90 A.D. This means it was written AFTER Pentecost, where Acts 2:38 was first preached. THIS TRUTH ALONE IS DEVASTATING TO SOME GROUPS!

I couldn't quote everything that you've written or this post would get too long. But again, you're problem is in consider the sum of what has been written. John covers the necessity of baptism in his gospel in the 3rd chapterh, verse 5. And yes believing is necessary, in fact it is belief alone that ought to spur one forth to be baptized for the remisson of their sins.

Finally, the entire third chapter of John is summed up in Jn. 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath (present tense) everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." NOTICE: The emphasis is placed on believing in Jesus. (Repentance is understood in the meaning of belief in Jesus which brings salvation.)

If you'll look very closely at the second time the word belief is used in John 3:36, the word actually means to be disobedient. The KJV and ASV both translate the word this way.

John 3:36 NASB

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

In this verse we actually see that being obedient an intrinsic part of our belief. This is echoed by Luke 6:46 and John 14:15. Obedience is not optional, and we are commanded to be baptized for the remission of our sins.

Hope to hear from you again soon

 

[evangelist]

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

In this verse we actually see that being obedient an intrinsic part of our belief. This is echoed by Luke 6:46 and John 14:15. Obedience is not optional, and we are commanded to be baptized for the remission of our sins.

first of all doesn`t the bible say in the mouth of two or three witnesses???

So when I point you two or three scripture to prove my point why you say I am make my own doctrine when I didn`t write the scriptures I only can point them out without adding or taken away the context like most people end up doing??

Tell me according to your quote when someone doesn`t obey all the rules and laws is he not righteous??

Do righteous people have eternal life because of the finish work and obedience of Christ???

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


God Bless

 

[aggie03]

first of all doesn`t the bible say in the mouth of two or three witnesses???

So when I point you two or three scripture to prove my point why you say I am make my own doctrine when I didn`t write the scriptures I only can point them out without adding or taken away the context like most people end up doing??

Since you brought them up, and obviously don't agree with their teachings, I'll use them in this example. You don't agree with what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. I'm sure that if you were to go the closest Kingdom Hall on one of their meeting nights they would be able to show more than 2 or 3 verses on why they believe that Jesus isn't God.

The Bible does say on two or three witnesses, but that in no way means 2 or 3 passages of Scripture to prove your point, otherwise there are a great many false doctrines that suddenly become true.

Tell me according to your quote when someone doesn`t obey all the rules and laws is he not righteous??

Okay, let's rephrase the question and ask it again: If someone doesn't repent, are they righteous? What do you think?

Do righteous people have eternal life because of the finish work and obedience of Christ???

I'm a little confused as to what you're asking here, but there are some things that I can tell you. No man is righteous in and of himself because all men have sinned (Romans 3:23). However, we can have these sins forgiven by becoming a child of God, which we are given the right to become if we believe in His name [note, this does not make us children of God, but gives us the right to become children of God] (John 1:12,13). We can be born of God (John 1:13). How can we be born of God? Well, obviously we have already been born once or we wouldn't be here, but Jesus tells us that we can be born again "of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5). Colossians 2:12 tells us that when we are baptized we are buried with Christ and that we are raised up with Him through the working of God. What does this mean? Romans 6 expounds on this a little further in that as Christ was raised from the dead, we too through our burial with Him in baptism, might be raised to a newness of life (Romans 6:4). What is a newness of life if not a rebirth? In this way, through our baptism and the working of God we are "born of water and the Spirit". As 1 Peter 3:21 tells us, none of this is possible without the ressurection of Christ Jesus.

None of this is only because someone was baptized. All of this is because of God's grace. Nothing that we could ever do would make up for any of the sins that we have committed. Being baptized is not worthy of salvation - believing is not worthy of salvation. God, in His infinite mercy, has decided to forgive us through His grace and our faith after we have been obedient in all that He has commanded as being necessary for our salvation.

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I'm not sure what point you meant to make by posting this verse. Did I miss something?

 

[evangelist]

Okay, let's rephrase the question and ask it again: If someone doesn't repent, are they righteous? What do you think?

no, but that is just like saying can a car run without A motor.

But the water baptism is like the paint on the car,or the seats and mirrors on the car but you still have a car and it runs and works as a car, get the analogy??
You are saying you must have the paint job first before you can have a car.

When a person believe ,repented, and confessed with their heart, they are instantly righteous.

Do righteous saints or believers have eternal life according to this scripture?
Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

God Bless

 

[aggie03]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. How can they be righteous if they're still in their sins? Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism is not like the paint on the car, baptism is like turning the key in the car. Does that make sense?

 

[evangelist]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. How can they be righteous if they're still in their sins? Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Baptism is not like the paint on the car, baptism is like turning the key in the car. Does that make sense?

I am so very sorry and i praise God I don`t preach this kind of gospel internationally here in Europe.

I have another gospel as you do and maybe this is the problem.

we all saved by grace but we are not perfect yet, but we can be righteous by jesus Christ.

Let me ask you a question about your baptism to get thing straight.

Is baptism a work???

I got baptized three times and came out of the water still a wet sinner, what does the water change???

What is important to our lives the inside or the outside christian life??

Does god look at our outward life and judge us according to our religious works or our hearts???


God Bless

 

[aggie03]

I've got a pretty beefy answer to your question, which is, I'm sure, what you want - and I will post it, I promise, because it's something that I believe is important for you to read.

However, I must also ask you a question:

Is believing a work? What about repenting?

 

[evangelist]

I've got a pretty beefy answer to your question, which is, I'm sure, what you want - and I will post it, I promise, because it's something that I believe is important for you to read.

However, I must also ask you a question:

Is believing a work? What about repenting?

Yes , but isn`t the believeing from the inside???

yes , repenting is a work and you work your mouth as well but the repentance first is with the heart.

Isn`t your heart inside of you???

So all this look like a inside job, which we need to punch in the time clock for in side works.

I`ll be waiting for you answers from my last post.

BTW, do righteous people go to heaven???

Yes____ or No______


God Bless

 

[aggie03]

Yes , but isn`t the believeing from the inside???

Matthew 5:14-16 ASV



Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. (15) Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house. (16) Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.



Believing is something that we must do (John 3:36). But just taking that we believe and leaving it at that is not acceptable. Christ has commanded us to let our light shine before men in such a way that they might SEE our good works and glorify God. This means that our belief is not limited to us alone, but it must be a tangible thing to other people. People ought to see how you behave, what you do, what you say, and understand that you believe in God and give Him the glory. Jesus said this, not me.

yes , repenting is a work and you work your mouth as well but the repentance first is with the heart.

Repentance also involves things that are external to your body. I agree that it is first with the heart, but it can't stop there. Suppose someone had a problem with pornography. They carried around magazines with them everywhere they went and the frequented the video store to the point that the sales clerk knew them on a first name basis.



Then they repent.



If they truly did repent of this sin, then they will have changing of their thought process. No longer will it be something that is pleasing to them because it satisfies their flesh, but they will abstain from it because it not pleasing to their spirit because they know it grieves God.



They will stop carrying around the magazines, and they will stop going to the video store. Perhaps the clerk might become worried about them and call to check on them - what a perfect opportunity to share Christ with this person.

Isn`t your heart inside of you???

So all this look like a inside job, which we need to punch in the timeclock for in side works.

I'm not sure what you meant by the timeclock comment. Could you explain that a little more?



It's not all an inside job, but yes your heart is inside you. Baptism is like this, too. It must first some from inside of you. You have to believe first. Then you have to repent. All of this before you are baptized. You are not baptized to wash your skin - but so that you might have a clean conscience before God (1 Peter 3:21). Baptism is also an inside thing first and then becomes external, just like believing and repenting.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

today when we get water baptized we do it to show people that we are christians.....

the difference we have aggie03 is that God does every thing in salvation

order in acts 2:37 pricked in their hearts =HS working in their minds

vs 38 repent =changing ones mind

be water baptized = act 11:15-16

why .....to recieve the gift of the HS= they had to wait ....we do not

1 example phillippians 4:19 ..paul tells them that God gives all mental needs which are spiritual not physical vs 16

2 example eph 2:4-9, romans 4:2-5, titus 3:5...and many more
vs 40 these people were unsaved

vs 41 they recieved his word =belief

then baptized

vs 45 sold their possessions and goods and devided them among them according to their need

have you done this?

This is part of dicipileship not salvation

other wise i have a need .... ha ha

know go back and respond to my post on act 8

waiting for aggie03 response

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

drink into one spirit = regeneration

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost

one spirit---- romans 8:9.....Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of His.

1 john 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.


1 cor 2:16 For who hath experiencially knownthe mind of the Lord, that he may be joined in Him? But we have the mind of Christ.


acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized by the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning[act 2:1-5] 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost

but ye ....shows different not same


I do not have a problem with water baptism as obedience but it is not required for salvation .....spirit baptism is required for salvation

romans 6:3 Know ye not that so many of us as where baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death.

where is the water in this baptism

Acts 8: 27 come to worship in Jersalm ALREADY OT BELIEVER
Vs 30 Phillip quotes OT scripture
vs 34 answers phillip
vs 35 Phillip preached Jesus?
VS 37 I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. believe is faith thus was already baptized into Christ upon belief then He decided to get baptized with water in vs 38


differences in scripture is what helps color the picture for every one not simularitys

this one then also aggie03 like you promised

 

[aggie03]

today when we get water baptized we do it to show people that we are christians.....

Where is this ever stated in the Scriptures? We are told to be baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38), not to show people that we are Christians.

We must have a basis for the things that we say and believe in the Scriptures. I don’t think that we should ever believe something because that’s what we’ve been taught or because that’s what the preacher said. If our faith isn’t based on what the Scriptures say, then our faith isn’t in God, but in the teaching of men.

I say this, a brethren, because many of the things that you say on here lead me to believe that you are a Calvinist. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, there are great many things we need to discuss before we can even begin to talk about baptism.

the difference we have aggie03 is that God does every thing in salvation

This statement in particular is one that makes me think you’re probably a Calvinist. I do not think that God does everything. How do we get faith? Does God just make us believe?

Romans 10:17 ASV

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The Scriptures teach that we believe when we hear the word of Christ and accept it. This is exactly what happened in Acts 2:37. The people there heard the gospel of Christ preached to them – they believed what Peter was saying to them; they were convicted by the word of Christ – but did this belief save them? No. There was still something that they had to do, and those who believed knew it and asked:

Acts 2:37 ASV

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

Peter then replies to them. He doesn’t tell them that their belief has already saved them and He doesn’t say that God will do everything. He says nothing like that. Instead Peter tells them that they must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins – not to show people that they are already a Christian, because at this point they aren’t.

Once they had heard the word of God, they believed. This belief spurred them on to ask the question: “What shall we do?” They were given an answer: “Repent and be baptized.” Those that received this word, after Peter kept speaking to them, exhorting them to save themselves from the crooked generation:

Acts 2:40 ASV

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

This would mean that there was something that they had to do – God wasn’t going to do everything for them. Otherwise Peter would have been able to say, “Sit back, don’t worry, God will do everything.” This isn’t what happens. Peter exhorts them to do something. What is it?

Acts 2:41 ASV

They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

Those who received Peter’s answer were baptized. Those who listened to the exhortation were baptized. They turned from their former ways of life and after, only after, their baptism are they counted as Christians.

This is in perfect harmony with the words of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, when He speaks in Mark 16:16a saying “He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”

Hope to hear from you soon

 

[evangelist]

aggie03

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteo

`ll be waiting for you answers from my last post.

BTW, do righteous people go to heaven???

Yes____ or No______


God Bless