Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[aggie03]

I told that it was a little on the longer side - I'm sorry for that, but I did promise you that I would post it, so here it is, for what it's worth. I look forward to hearing back from you again.

I am so very sorry and i praise God I don`t preach this kind of gospel internationally here in Europe.

You’ve made an interesting point here in pointing out that there are two different gospels that we’re discussing. This reminds me of a passages from Galatians 1:

Galatians 1:6-12 ASV

I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; (7) which is not another gospel only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. (9) As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema. (10) For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? or am I striving to please men? if I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ. (11) For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man. (12) For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ.

I think that it’s fairly clear from what Paul says in verses 6 and 7 that there are not 2 different gospels that can be preached. There is only one, and that is the one that was delivered to Paul through revelation (v. 12). Throughout all of the Scriptures then, as we read, if we are going to remain in harmony with what Paul has written said here, we can find only one gospel. There only one Truth. There is only one set of beliefs that the word of God teaches. Anything other than this one set of beliefs is unacceptable, indeed will make the professor of such a gospel anathema (v. 8).


You have said that we are talking about two different gospels. If you are right, which I believe that you are, then we have here a serious problem. Not both of them can be right, because there is only one Truth. So this is the situation that we find ourselves in: either the gospel that you preach is the one Truth, or else the gospel that I preach is the one Truth.

This means that we find ourselves now in the middle of a very serious situation. I pray that in all things we both would search for the Truth that is taught in the word of God. If we will both approach this subject with an open mind, listen to carefully and consider the full counsel of God’s word, then I see no reason why we cannot reconcile what we believe and conform, whom ever of the two us needs to, to what the Truth really is.

Reading what Paul writes about the one who preaches a false gospel always makes me carefully consider the things that I preach, the things that I believe. It makes think about whether or not the things that I believed were received from men, or if I truly have found them in Scriptures.

Unlike Paul, neither you nor I have a direct revelation from God as to the Gospel – but we have something better: the Bible. We can read the full revelation of God’s will in the Scriptures. Just as Paul did not receive his understanding from men, but from God, so we too have a choice. There are a variety of different things that men teach, even doctrines that deny the deity of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. We can read through the Scriptures and understand fully the mystery of Christ as it has been revealed to the Apostles and prophets (Ephesians 3:4,5) or we can follow the teachings of men. For indeed there are many gospels, but there is only one Truth. As Christ has said the Truth shall make us free (John 8:32), this is what we must search out to both believe and to preach.

I have another gospel as you do and maybe this is the problem.

I agree that this is indeed the problem. One of us is right, and the other is wrong. The only measuring stick that we can use to see who ought to change is the word of God. I look forward to searching through the Scriptures with you, not to prove myself correct, but to establish firmly what the Truth is. Should that Truth be different than what I currently believe, I will gladly change my life and beliefs to conform to what we discover. I only pray that you, indeed all who choose to join us in our discussion, are willing to do the same. Who knows, as we search through the Bible we may find that neither one of us is correct and are both in need of change. I pray that we will have hearts humble enough to allow God in all things to be true. I do indeed look forward to our continued discussions .

I do not think this means, however, that we shouldn’t try to point out the things that we believe, please don’t misunderstand me . If you don’t defend what you currently believe, and I don’t defend my own beliefs, then we really wouldn’t have anything to discuss.

we all saved by grace but we are not perfect yet, but we can be righteous by jesus Christ.

I agree that we are all saved by Grace. So the apparent discrepancy that we have is where that grace is applied to us.

Let me ask you a question about your baptism to get thing straight. Is baptism a work?

Before I answer, I think that we ought to find a definition that we can both agree upon for the word “work”. How does this sound to you:

WORK: Something that an individual must do that is commanded by God.

There is also another definition that I would like to offer:



BOASTFUL WORK: Something an individual might do wherein they think that they have earned or deserved their salvation, e.g. building a tower large enough that ones deserves to be saved.

I believe that there is a difference between something that is commanded of us by God and something that we do in order to earn our salvation.

Is baptism something that we are commanded to do? Yes. We are told to be baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38). We are told in Mark 16:16 that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. We also told that baptism saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21). Is baptism, then something that is commanded by God? Yes. So by our first definition baptism is a work. Keep in mind, however, that belief and repentance are also works under the same definition.

What baptism is not is a boastful work. No one can boast that they were baptized and therefore deserve to be in heaven because it is not something that is done of our own merit. We are told several places in the Scriptures that the only reason we are saved is because of the resurrection of Christ. So we don’t deserve to be saved simply because we have been baptized, but rather we have the promise of God, through His grace, that those who are obedient will be saved. In short, nothing we could ever do is worthy of salvation – it is only through the grace of God.

I got baptized three times and came out of the water still a wet sinner, what does the water change?

The water doesn’t change anything. There is no power in the water. All of the power is in God’s working through our faith (Colossians 2:12). It sounds like the three times that you were baptized that your heart wasn’t right with God. Just because someone is dunked in water, that doesn’t make them saved. There are some other things that have to happen first, like hearing the word, belief, confessing Christ, repentance, and then baptism for the remission of one’s sins.

Just out of curiosity, why were you baptized?

What is important to our lives the inside or the outside christian life?

I think that the best places that we can look for an answer to this question is the book of James. James tells in chapter 1 verse 22 that we should be doers of the word and not merely hearers who so delude ourselves. I understand this to mean that anyone can hear the word and agree that the things it teaches are good thing, but we are also called to live by the things that we hear. Scripture tells us that we ought to be careful of what comes out of our mouths, for out of the mouth comes the abundance of the heart (Matthew 12:34). It sounds good to hear someone say that you should only says nice things, but this is something that we must also live by.

So the answer to your question “is it the outside or the inside that matters?”, in short, is that they both matter.

Does god look at our outward life and judge us according to our religious works or our hearts?

To be perfectly honest with you, I cannot tell you everything that God does, simply because I am not God. I will not pretend to understand Him perfectly, for that would be a very vain and arrogant claim. But I’ll tell you what I can do .

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ASV

Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (17) That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

I can study and read the Scriptures which are inspired by God. By reading these I can know everything that God wants me to know and understand all things that are necessary for me to be complete and furnished completely unto every good work.

Part of the things that I learn from reading the word of God teach me that everything God commands of us He expects us to follow, indeed if we do truly have fellowship with Him we will follow them. If we keep His commandments we will abide with Him and He with us (1 John 3:24). So is it necessary to do the things that God has said? Yes, and if we do truly have a good heart, we will do what God had said out of our love for Him.

I look forward to hearing back from you and the things that you have to say. I’m sure that we’ll have much more to discuss. I pray that we might allow the word of God to be true, and that we would follow after what it teaches as Truth.

Hope you’re having a good day over there in Germany

 

[evangelist]

aggie03

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

`
BTW, do righteous people go to heaven???

Yes____ or No______


God Bless

I will answer your last long post after this little tiny post which is really more my size.

I`ll wait for your answer aggie03



God Bless

 

[idleprocess]

I apologize if this point has been made before, I haven't read the previous 940+ posts

If someone were to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, then 15 minutes later, when crossing the street to be baptized is hit by a bus and die's before he/she can do so, will that person go to heaven or not?

If not, then Ephesians 2:8-9 must be wrong, no?

This argument is well made at the CARM.org site that I'd link to, but I'm not allowed to yet.

idle

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

[/i]

Where is this ever stated in the Scriptures? We are told to be baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38), not to show people that we are Christians.

We must have a basis for the things that we say and believe in the Scriptures. I don’t think that we should ever believe something because that’s what we’ve been taught or because that’s what the preacher said. If our faith isn’t based on what the Scriptures say, then our faith isn’t in God, but in the teaching of men.

I say this, a brethren, because many of the things that you say on here lead me to believe that you are a Calvinist. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, there are great many things we need to discuss before we can even begin to talk about baptism.



This statement in particular is one that makes me think you’re probably a Calvinist. I do not think that God does everything. How do we get faith? Does God just make us believe?

Romans 10:17 ASV

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The Scriptures teach that we believe when we hear the word of Christ and accept it. This is exactly what happened in Acts 2:37. The people there heard the gospel of Christ preached to them – they believed what Peter was saying to them; they were convicted by the word of Christ – but did this belief save them? No. There was still something that they had to do, and those who believed knew it and asked:

mark 4:9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And when he was alone they that were about Him with the twelve asked him the parable. 11 And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing that they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may not hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and harden their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them.

So Faith comes and not comes from God..He decides

faith from Christ
2 tim 3:1

faith thru christ
Gal 5:20

before faith came
gal 3:23-24

Acts

2:37

ASV

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

Peter then replies to them. He doesn’t tell them that their belief has already saved them and He doesn’t say that God will do everything. He says nothing like that. Instead Peter tells them that they must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins – not to show people that they are already a Christian, because at this point they aren’t.

Once they had heard the word of God, they believed. This belief spurred them on to ask the question: “What shall we do?” They were given an answer: “Repent and be baptized.” Those that received this word, after Peter kept speaking to them, exhorting them to save themselves from the crooked generation:

Acts 2:40 ASV

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

This would mean that there was something that they had to do – God wasn’t going to do everything for them. Otherwise Peter would have been able to say, “Sit back, don’t worry, God will do everything.” This isn’t what happens. Peter exhorts them to do something. What is it?

romans 4:2 For if Abramham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Acts

2:41

ASV

They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

Those who received Peter’s answer were baptized. Those who listened to the exhortation were baptized. They turned from their former ways of life and after, only after, their baptism are they counted as Christians.

This is in perfect harmony with the words of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour, when He speaks in Mark 16:16a saying “He who believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”

Hope to hear from you soon

Believeth .....Romans 4:1-8
baptized ....1 cor 12:13[acts 1:5]

 

[elvenvoices]

Also in Mathew it says,

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying "All Authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I am commanded you; and lo, I am with you always and even to the end of the age. Amen"

Mathew 28:18-20

He says that he has commanded them to baptize the world in the name of His father, His name and of the Holy Ghost.


It also says:

Matthew 20:22-23

But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Which is also refered to in Acts when he says that to believe on Him is to believe that he going to make a place for you in Heaven.

Also:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ******.

The message board wouldn't let me post the last word of the scripture. It's what Beavers do to a river when they build their home across it. Or you can look it up

There is also a scipture that I could not find that says that to come to God we must come through Water. If I find it I'll post it.

 

[aggie03]

I apologize if this point has been made before, I haven't read the previous 940+ posts

940 is a lot. I totally understand

If someone were to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, then 15 minutes later, when crossing the street to be baptized is hit by a bus and die's before he/she can do so, will that person go to heaven or not?

The problem with the question that you ask is that it’s not answerable. When it comes to this topic, often times these “What if?” questions are judgment calls that we, not being God, are in no position to make.

I’m going to assume that you believe in the standard prayer-type salvation that I often see on tracts – if I am wrong in this assumption I apologize, but I believe that the point will still be made .

So let’s say that Fred, who has been visiting a congregation for quite some time finally hears a sermon and something clicks. For the longest time he had been holding out on believing in Jesus because there were some reservations that he had. He was interested enough to keep coming, though. Well tonight, the preacher has done a very good job presenting the word of God and finally those little nagging doubts that have kept Fred from believing for so long were answered and silenced.

Fred stands up and begins to make his way to the front of the building when suddenly he has a massive heart attack and dies three feet from the place where he had been sitting.

In this situation Fred had neither the opportunity to confess Christ as Lord, to pray the “sinner’s prayer” or to repent of his sins. Would you say that he’s saved if he didn’t repent? What about not saying the “sinner’s prayer”? There’s a lot that Fred didn’t do, but it’s very easy for us to look on him with compassion and decide for ourselves that we would like for him to be saved. Indeed, considering the alternative, if it were up to me I would like to make the conditions of salvation such that everyone would be saved.

Herein lays the problem, however. It is not up to me; it is not up to you. The sole authority and judge as to who will be saved and who will not be saved is God. We cannot pass judgment over who will and who will not be saved because that is not our place – that is God’s place. God alone is the judge because God alone is Just. What we can do, though, is read the Bible and learn what God has said is necessary to be saved.

According to the things that God has said then, there are some places where Fred was lacking. He never repented. Jesus tells us in Luke 13:3,5 that he who does not repent will perish. He never confessed Christ as Lord. We find this in Romans 10 and an example in the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunuch. Fred was also never baptized as we have been commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16. This baptism would be for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16).

Would Fred have repented? Would Fred have confessed Christ as Lord? Would Fred have gotten baptized for the remission of his sins? Should Fred be saved?

Frankly, the answers to those questions are “I don’t know”. I don’t believe that truthfully anyone can say for sure whether or not Fred will be saved. All I can do is tell you what the Scriptures say, and leave the judgment up to God.

For my part, then, I can show you where the Scriptures teach that man must hear the word of God and from that hearing believe (Romans 10:17). This belief must lead that individual to repent of their sins (Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38). They ought also to confess Christ as Lord (Romans 10:9; Acts 8:37) and finally be baptized for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19; Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; 1 Peter 3:21).

These are the things that the Scriptures lay out as being necessary for our salvation. We are told that we will be judged against the word of God (John 12:48 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8). Whether or not God will save Fred, I cannot truly say, but I can say that the gospel convicts him. You see, our friend Fred had many opportunities to obey the gospel of Christ. He had been coming to worship for quite some time and only at the very end of his life did he finally come to believe. From this standpoint God would be very just in telling him that he had plenty of chances but, because of his indecisiveness, he has missed out on the only thing that really matters in life: becoming a child of God.

So really then, I believe that this is the situation that we find ourselves in: Instead of asking “What if?” and coming up with many scenarios in which we ourselves would want to grant salvation to someone – we really ought to be asking of ourselves “Why not?” Allow me to explain .

We cannot try to justify the things that we have not done, based upon what others did not do. Our friend Fred died almost immediately after he believed, but this is obviously not the case with you. On the day of judgment then, Fred would be able to at least offer this excuse to God as to why he was not baptized. What would be your excuse? It’s fairly obvious that you believe. Are you willing to confess Christ? Are you willing to repent of your sins? If your answer is yes, which I’m sure that it will be, then why not be baptized for the remission of your sins as the Scriptures teach? “Why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on His name.” (Acts 22:16)

I look forward to hearing back from, idleprocess, and no matter how many times something has been discussed, I will always be happy to talk with you about it again .

 

[evangelist]

I will answer your last long post after this little tiny post which is really more my size.

I`ll wait for your answer aggie03



God Bless

 

[aggie03]

aggie03

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteo

Explain to me what you're trying to prove with this verse. That would really help me answer your question. After I answer this one, you'll respond to my other post?

Look forward to hearing from you

 

[idleprocess]

I’m going to assume that you believe in the standard prayer-type salvation that I often see on tracts – if I am wrong in this assumption I apologize, but I believe that the point will still be made .

That assumption is accurate, but let me elaborate my belief, salvation is NOT so much a prayer as it the beginning of a relationship. In getting saved / born again, I'm aknowledging Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior, inviting him into my life and in turn living my life for Him by constant communication with Him through prayer, seeking his kingdom first by reading the Word, etc...

It is not up to me; it is not up to you. The sole authority and judge as to who will be saved and who will not be saved is God. We cannot pass judgment over who will and who will not be saved because that is not our place – that is God’s place. God alone is the judge because God alone is Just.

Well put and I agree.

snip... the remainder of a well written post

I think every Christian should be baptized, though not out of necessity for salvation.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal. 2:21

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph. 2:8

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:23

To require baptism for salvation, we are errently adding to the finished work of Jesus Christ.

idle

 

[Sophia23]

Not quite.

I think baptism is like the current day wedding ceremony. Are you married because you have walked down the isle in a white dress, or tux?

It is something you do in following Christ's example and indeed a blessed and wonderful event.

But, think of this the next time you tell someone BAPTISM IS A MUST - you just might cause them to NOT become Christian - here is why:

Meet Joe Smoe.

Joe enjoyed a long and full life. Joe had parents who did their best to teach Joe right from wrong acconding to the holy gosple of Christ. Joe had a wife who raised his kids in a loving and Christian home.

Trouble was, Joe was missing something everyone else had. Christ. Yet, that knock at his door was not answered...until one night.

Joe was driving home from a work party. It was foggy and one of his headlights was out. Joe was hit by a horse. Yes, a race horse that went mad.

Anyway, Joe forgot to put on his seatbelt and went though the windsheild.

Joe could hear the sirens as he lay cold on the pavement. As an aid worker set the brace for his neck, Joe noticed a cross about her neck. He tried to ask her about it, but shattered glass in he mouth got in the way. All he could do was point.

The worker saw this and smiled said she lived for Christ. She told him it might be time for him to say a prayer or two.

What she didnt know was that Joe's prayer on that last night of his life was not to get physically well, but to get spiritually well.

Joe accepted Christ in his heart that night with no-one but GOD and himself knowing. In 58 years of life on earth, Joe had no greater joy than that 22 minutes of fading life he shared with the Lord.

Now Joe is in heaven. No pomp, or special circumstance, just a quiet fading decision. Joe missed out on alot of wonderful chances with the Lord in doing things as the Lord had done, but Joe took on the best opportunity of all before it was too late.




Do you want to keep someone from making a death bed decision to follow Christ because you have pumped them full of HAVE TO's and MUSTs - like baptism?

At death, there is no time for such ceremony.

Think about it.....

Now I am worried... that made me cry ...wow... I am way to sensitive these days lol

 

[aggie03]

Now I am worried... that made me cry ...wow... I am way to sensitive these days lol

Why are you worried?

 

[Sophia23]

because... I shpouldn't cry so much ...dunno...

 

[aggie03]

Well put and I agree.

I think every Christian should be baptized, though not out of necessity for salvation.

Sounds like we will have plenty to talk about . I'm really glad you joined the discussion .

To require baptism for salvation, we are errently adding to the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Are we adding it if God has said it's necessary? Isn't saying that you have to believe adding to it also then? What about repentance? What about saying the sinner's prayer? If baptism adds to what Jesus did then all of these things do to.

Maybe you could explain for me why you think baptism adds something? That would really help me to understand where you're coming from.

I look forward to hearing back from you

 

[aggie03]

because... I shpouldn't cry so much ...dunno...

Did you read the reply that was made to this post? I thought it was pretty good . If you haven't read it let me know, Sophia, and I'll repost it for you - and crying isn't a bad thing

 

[idleprocess]

Sounds like we will have plenty to talk about . I'm really glad you joined the discussion .

Glad to be here Thanks for the warm welcome

Are we adding it if God has said it's necessary? Isn't saying that you have to believe adding to it also then? What about repentance? What about saying the sinner's prayer? If baptism adds to what Jesus did then all of these things do to.

ALL that's required for salvation is your faith and His Grace. No less, no more.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph. 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith AND Baptism, AND citing the sinners prayer, AND Repentance. The Word doesn't say this.

The Gift of God. The very nature of a gift is that it's free. If in order to recieve a gift, you must first, 'do something' it's no longer a gift.

We are justified by Faith;

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:22

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:1

By Faith. Not Faith AND something else.

I'm aware of the versus you quote that seem to make baptism a requirement for salvation. I'll be more than happy to go through those with you if you'd like.

idle

 

[The teacher]

By Faith. Not Faith AND something else.

idleprocess,
I would suggest it comes down to what you think faith includes. I think repentance and water baptism are both acts of faith, not works, so in that sense, yes faith is all that is required. The scriptures posted by aggie03 seem to be pretty self-explanatory in the need for baptism.

Just my thoughts.

 

[idleprocess]

I would suggest it comes down to what you think faith includes. I think repentance and water baptism are both acts of faith, not works, so in that sense, yes faith is all that is required.

Good point and well stated.

idle

 

[aggie03]

Evangelist, did you see this post? The verse in question was Romans V, 19:

Romans 5:19 ASV

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

Explain to me what you're trying to prove with this verse. That would really help me answer your question. After I answer this one, you'll respond to my other post?

Look forward to hearing from you

 

[The teacher]

Good point and well stated.

idle

Thanks idleprocess.

 

[Sophia23]

Did you read the reply that was made to this post? I thought it was pretty good . If you haven't read it let me know, Sophia, and I'll repost it for you - and crying isn't a bad thing

Probably not - this thread has a LOT of pages