Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[evangelist]

What is this heart baptism that you've mentioned? Can you show me a place in the Scriptures where it mentions a 'heart baptism'?

To me the baptism with the heart is like this.

Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



1 Corinthians 12.13

• 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism or born of the water is in reference to



Ephesians 5.26

• 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

I see this also when the Word is preached to us there is a washing of the Word of God in our hearts.



1 Peter 3.18-21

• 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
• 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
• 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
• 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I'm going to call one's walk their entire spiritual experience or journey. So from the very beginning of one's ability to comprehend that there is a God they are on their 'walk'. In this case, the beginning of one's 'walk' is with hearing the word of God.

I look at one being saved like a women having a baby , even though she is pregenant she claim to have a baby in her , and the same is accepting Jesus we are then saved a child of God and our name is still in the book of life even without any water outwards baptism.
the walk is to go to check ups like read your bible get understanding in all your gettings.

I believe that in this statement we find that one cannot be "born again" without being baptized. This same idea is expressed in Romans 6:3,4 :

I think this is the difference with us is the understanding here in John 3:5 is this a water baptism or is it still in the same contexts as the spiritual bith as a spiritual born of the Word of God which you said the hearing of the Word of God should be first and this would come into the steps of salvation beginning with John 3:5.

Well, nothing that we can do is capable of saving ourselves, not even renewing our heart as you have stated. The only thing that saves us is the grace of God. The question that we must answer with the Scriptures is "What has God said is necessary for us to receive His saving grace?"

I am so glad to see you admit that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, even by a water baptism.

I have a question if a person does everything else except get baptized do you think they will go to hell because they didn`t get water baptized, but they are saved????

God Bless

 

[Enflamed]

To me the baptism with the heart is like this.

Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



1 Corinthians 12.13

• 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Baptism or born of the water is in reference to



Ephesians 5.26

• 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

I see this also when the Word is preached to us there is a washing of the Word of God in our hearts.



1 Peter 3.18-21

• 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
• 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
• 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
• 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I look at one being saved like a women having a baby , even though she is pregenant she claim to have a baby in her , and the same is accepting Jesus we are then saved a child of God and our name is still in the book of life even without any water outwards baptism.
the walk is to go to check ups like read your bible get understanding in all your gettings.


I think this is the difference with us is the understanding here in John 3:5 is this a water baptism or is it still in the same contexts as the spiritual bith as a spiritual born of the Word of God which you said the hearing of the Word of God should be first and this would come into the steps of salvation beginning with John 3:5.


I am so glad to see you admit that there is nothing we can do to save ourselves, even by a water baptism.

I have a question if a person does everything else except get baptized do you think they will go to hell because they didn`t get water baptized, but they are saved????

God Bless

Yes because baptism is where God chooses to forgive sins. All through out the New testament baptism is done for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 comes to mind. Also all the places that John the Baptist baptized it says it was for remission of sins.


Joshua

 

[evangelist]

Yes because baptism is where God chooses to forgive sins. All through out the New testament baptism is done for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:38 comes to mind. Also all the places that John the Baptist baptized it says it was for remission of sins.


Joshua

So that means the thief on the cross that Jesus said he will remember him in heaven or paradise is really in hell because he didn`t get baptized.

You mention it is a way for forgiveness, then what does the blood of jesus do for a sinner or anybody???

When A person repents with all their heart and confess with their mouth according to Rom 10:9,10 and believe like in John 3:16 for eternal life , are they still going to hell as a born again Believer???

Repentance and the blood of Jesus is not strong enough to make someone washed from sins???

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My last question according to this scripture and more like this, is a water unbaptized person not righteous, and qualified for hell forever

God Bless

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

evanglist
Romans 10:9-10 what do you think they are they confessing ?

sins?
that Christ was God? in John
man does not work for salvation? romans 4:1-5

everyone else

Acts 1:5 For John truly [1]baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized by the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

when did this happen acts 2:1-5

does everyone see two different forms of baptisms?
water and spirit

what does the bible say that we need 1 cor 12:13 and romans 8:9

 

[aggie03]

Acts 1:5 For John truly [1]baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized by the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

I would ask that everyone get out their Bibles and go to this first chapter in the book of Acts. I'll go ahead and post the relevant verses in the translation that I prefer:

Acts 1:1-5 ASV

1 The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2 until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God: 4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me: 5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

There are a couple of very important points that need to be made about this passage before we can go on to talk about other things. First and formost is the audience to whom Christ was speaking.

When you read through the first red section that I've quoted, who is Christ speaking to? The Aposltes whom He had chosen. That's right. There were commandments that He gave specifically to them. None of us here today are Apostles. These commands were not for us.

In the orange section of the text that's been quoted, who did Christ spend time with showing them many proofs and speaking about things concerning the kingdom of God? The Apostles. None of us were shown any proofs, none of us were talked to specifically and physically by Christ about the kingdom of God. These things didn't happen to us and don't apply to us. We are not the audience.

In verse 4, Christ was assembled with THEM and Christ charged THEM not to depart from Jerusalem. Who is this THEM? The Apostles.

In verse 4, the green YE also refers to the Apostles. In verse 5, which is a continuation of verse 4, the YE is still referring to the Apostles. The Apostles were the ones who heard the commandment, and the Apostles were the ones whom Christ said would be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

None of us are Apostles - none of these commands were given to us. Did any of you tarry in Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago until you were clothed with power from on high? Me neither. As cool as it would be, these passages do not refer to anything that would happen to us.

 

[aggie03]

Thank you, evangelist, for writing back. I really do appreciate it when people are willing to discuss what they believe . You've made me very happy, and hope that we can continue our discussion in a like manner till we're finished.

You get the clappy guy! ==>

To me the baptism with the heart is like this.

Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I've noticed that the Scriptures never call this a baptism of the heart. This seems to be a confession rather than a baptism. Is there a place in the Scriptures where you can show that a "baptism of the heart" has been outlined as necessary for our salvation?

There are a lot of other good things that I'd like to discuss with you from your post, but you've asked perhaps the most pressing question at the very end, so I'll skip straight down to that and we'll deal with everything else in due time, if it's okay with you .

I have a question if a person does everything else except get baptized do you think they will go to hell because they didn`t get water baptized, but they are saved????

Good question. Let me ask you this...what if they do everything but repent?

 

[evangelist]

Hello Aggie 03

I've noticed that the Scriptures never call this a baptism of the heart. This seems to be a confession rather than a baptism. Is there a place in the Scriptures where you can show that a "baptism of the heart" has been outlined as necessary for our salvation?

I don`t know how you were taught about the washing or covering of the blood of Jesus , and I don`t know if you had a teaching on what baptism symbolize as to be covered by water also.
it seems like you but the water before the blood of Jesus , but I might be wrong on how you look at baptism.
You ask for a scripture about the baptism of the heart which I can`t show you these written words in the bible just like I can`t show you the word bible , or trinity or a scripture don`t take drugs or smoke cigarettes, but in context of the scripture we can get the right answers and understanding, and the will of God for our lives.
Now I gave you some scripture about the baptism of the heart but the Holy Spirit has to reveal it to you one day while you are seeking the truth, and spiritual growth.

Good question. Let me ask you this...what if they do everything but repent?

I know you said you are glad to discuss with me this issue, but i think we need to take our questions one at a time step by step and let us not try to dodge out the questions with another question hoping to to answer the first question at state.

So let me help you to answer my first question to you which is so important .

I have a question if a person does everything else except get baptized do you think they will go to hell because they didn`t get water baptized, but they are saved????

Yes______ or no_______.


I was amazed you didn`t at least answer this question.

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My last question according to this scripture and more like this, is a water unbaptized person not righteous, and qualified for hell forever, because Jesus also got water baptized and this was righteous, so this should make others righteous and do you agree righteuos people come into heaven???


I would like to add that I believe with all my heart that those people who don`t get water baptized in disobedient, maybe because they are afraid of going under in water and etc that I see according to the bible that they will miss out on a reward , or be not recieve a crown of Gold, and God will say not so well done my unfaithful son , but I bel
ieve with all my heart we who believe and repented and still has a relationship with jesus will still be on the vine tree as a son or daughter in the last rows, but is in the gates of heaven praise the Lord.


God Bless

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I would ask that everyone get out their Bibles and go to this first chapter in the book of Acts. I'll go ahead and post the relevant verses in the translation that I prefer:

Acts 1:1-5 ASV

1 The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, concerning all that Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2 until the day in which he was received up, after that he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God: 4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me: 5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

There are a couple of very important points that need to be made about this passage before we can go on to talk about other things. First and formost is the audience to whom Christ was speaking.

When you read through the first red section that I've quoted, who is Christ speaking to? The Aposltes whom He had chosen. That's right. There were commandments that He gave specifically to them. None of us here today are Apostles. These commands were not for us.

In the orange section of the text that's been quoted, who did Christ spend time with showing them many proofs and speaking about things concerning the kingdom of God? The Apostles. None of us were shown any proofs, none of us were talked to specifically and physically by Christ about the kingdom of God. These things didn't happen to us and don't apply to us. We are not the audience.

In verse 4, Christ was assembled with THEM and Christ charged THEM not to depart from Jerusalem. Who is this THEM? The Apostles.

In verse 4, the green YE also refers to the Apostles. In verse 5, which is a continuation of verse 4, the YE is still referring to the Apostles. The Apostles were the ones who heard the commandment, and the Apostles were the ones whom Christ said would be baptized by the Holy Spirit.

None of us are Apostles - none of these commands were given to us. Did any of you tarry in Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago until you were clothed with power from on high? Me neither. As cool as it would be, these passages do not refer to anything that would happen to us.

Are we not all one body eph 4:4, 1 cor 12:12-13

we have not the same office[practice] romans 12:4-5

john 17:21-26 ....body truth is so Great
since I am counted in Christ and Christ is in the Father Romans 6:3-9

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I agree Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 are some of the very important verses that help to show that.

hello aggie..... long time no talk.

It is necessary, but not for salvation, please don't be manipulative to the other viewers

 

[MinDach]

Jesus was baptized before he started to tell people about the kingdom Of God. Jesus thought it was very important, because this was the first time that God had sent the Holy Spirit down to him. Jesus Did not have the Holy Spirit until after John Baptized him. I do not believe it will keep you out of heaven, because when you ask Jesus to come in to your life, the Spirit come to you then.

 

[evangelist]

hello aggie..... long time no talk.

It is necessary, but not for salvation, please don't be manipulative to the other viewers

AMEN!

 

[evangelist]

Jesus was baptized before he started to tell people about the kingdom Of God. Jesus thought it was very important, because this was the first time that God had sent the Holy Spirit down to him. Jesus Did not have the Holy Spirit until after John Baptized him. I do not believe it will keep you out of heaven, because when you ask Jesus to come in to your life, the Spirit come to you then.

Some people think the water come into our life first and we have to be deep sea divers.

I agree with you but I think a person according to the bible will lose some rewards for not being water baptized , but they have the key , and pass to heaven and eternal life praise the Lord.

 

[NotTroy]

Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, He was baptized in order that He might become a priest. The same thing with the Holy Spirit coming down and resting on Him in the form of a dove. Two things required to become a priest were a baptizim and annointing of the Holy Spirit, who the Jewish people used oil to represent.

 

[evangelist]

Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, He was baptized in order that He might become a priest. The same thing with the Holy Spirit coming down and resting on Him in the form of a dove. Two things required to become a priest were a baptizim and annointing of the Holy Spirit, who the Jewish people used oil to represent.

Is this an old testament law?

I thoought we are choosen and the elected priesthood as children of God, and the good news is that we don`t have to try to get God to give us anything which He already has given us through Christ Jesus .

We live not by the old testament laws but we are free from that we are led by the Spirit.
Ga:5:1: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga:5:2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga:5:3: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga:5:4: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Ga:5:5: For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Ga:5:6: For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Ga:5:14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


God Bless

 

[Apathe]

Weighing in late on this one, but I also believe baptism is necessary. The thief on the cross example is bogus because the thief died under the law of moses. Christ had not been resurrected yet nor had the "church" been established. There are several verses in the NT discussing the importance of baptism and every conversion story in the NT after the death of Christ included baptism. If you read early church history, baptism was absolutely regarded as necessary and even became one of the first heresies as people began to think baptism itself was the single most important step to salvation and began baptising everyone: babies, children, unbelievers, etc. The idea that you could be saved w/o baptism came along much later and is clearly debunked by early christian church history.

Oh and as for "what if you died on your way to the church baptistry" idea...you would probably be saved because God judges your heart...you were on your way there. If you refuse to follow a commandment of God because you "don't think it's necessary" you probably will not receive such grace because you are ignoring his word.

 

[phaedrus]

The thief on the cross example is bogus because the thief died under the law of moses.

Were it an isolated text I might be inclined to agree, but it is not.

"All the prophets testify about Him that everyone that believes in Him recieves the forgiveness of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message." (Acts 10:43,44)

The seal of the Spirit is the mark of savation, "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession...(Eph. 1:13). Salvation came prior to baptism and this is undeniable. The importance of Baptism in the early church was due to a need for people to identify with Christ. It represents a commitment and is simular to an oath.

"In it (the Ark) only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge, (or response, taken from NIV footnote), of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (IPeter 3:20,21)

You cannot add baptism to faith for salvation without discarding the primary doctrine of the Church, faith in the risen saviour. What the thief of the cross did was change his attitude. Repentance in the NT means exactly that:

"Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. " (IPeter 4:1)

Now if the thief on the cross was justified (forgiven of sin), under the law of Moses (which is impossible), then Christ died for nothing:

"For if the rightiousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" (Gal. 2:21)

Nowhere in Scripture is there a requirement of baptism for salvation. For every text that might seem to imply that baptism is required, I can produce a dozen that say that it is by faith apart from works.

 

[Polycarp1]

Gotta object to several ideas being thrown into the pot here.

First, the idea that God operates under dispensations that differ over timeis very much human-based. From an eternal perspective, Jesus's self-sacrifice in Atonement was not a demarcating point in time, so that those who died after that point were saved (or not) differently than those who went before -- If Jesus, in the process of paying the ultimate price for our sins, forgave the thief on the cross without recourse to whether he followed a set formula, it's the height of arrogance to put ourselves above God the Son and say otherwise.

Rather, He paid the debt for all sins, from Eve's to the last sin at the end of time. When someone died has no bearing on the question of Christ's Atonement for them. Are we to say of two men killed in a battle in Outer Mongolia that coincidentally took place on the first Good Friday that the one who was killed instantly was under the old dispensation and the one who lingered till evening before dying of his wounds was under the new?

Second, Scripture is very clear what saves us, and it is not our faith which saves us. It is God's grace. For a man to be saved by his faith is just a specialized case of a heresy of do-it-yourself salvation. We receive God's grace through our faith in Him, to be sure -- but it is His prevenient act that enables us to do so -- His unearned gift of grace that includes the faith to believe in Him.

How do we receive this grace? Through belief, repentance, and baptism, -- because that is what He commands. Baptism is not some magic device where someone is dunked and thereby saved -- but rather the submission of self, in faith and repentance, to His commands, in a way that is rich in symbolism and (likely therefore) selected by Him as speaking to human hearts.

To say that baptism is not necessary for salvation because it is a physical act and not a spiritual attitude is to say that you know better than God what you need to do to be saved. If He had commanded that we should stand on our heads and whistle Dixie, then churches would be equipped with headstands and organists would be learning solemn settings of Dixie to play during Divine Headstanding services. Because it is for Him to command, and us to obey.

The Catholics, who make more of a production out of the necessity for baptism than almost anybody else, have a theology that says, "Everybody needs to be baptized to be saved. But since God knows well human frailties and the changes and chances of this mortal life, He takes intent for deed when one cannot be baptized before one's death, or if one is martyred for one's faith before baptism."

As for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, God's Holy Spirit is working within us at all times. The majority of Christians believe that it is conveyed in a special manner at baptism. In some people, the opening of their hearts to the Spirit's work is marked by a spectacular phenomenon as in the Pentecostal and charismatic beliefs; in others, it is a quieter and more subtle process, though no less real. The Holy Spirit works in the way that he knows will best move and equip each of us to follow our Lord.

 

[evangelist]

If you refuse to follow a commandment of God because you "don't think it's necessary" you probably will not receive such grace because you are ignoring his word.

I think when we be ignornant of the Word of God we will lose rewards but the bible say`s we are still saved when we believe and trust in the Lord.

the bible say`s this:Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So the question Polycaroi and others are those who believe and are born again , are they unrighteous because they didn`t get baptized???

God Bless

 

[phaedrus]

I accepted Christ a year before getting around to being baptised, they didn't have a baptismal on board my ship. Being in the Navy it leaves me to wonder if something had happened and I died, fighting a fire of something, if I would spend eternity without God on a technicality. I was baptised as a Catholic, after accepting Christ I was baptised in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, later I was baptised in the name of Jesus and none of this determines whether or not I was in the Lambs Book of Life.

Now don't get me wrong I think baptism is important. When a woman was married one of the things she would do is be baptised in her wedding dress. It symbolized her death to her old life as a child and a daughter, and her rising up to live as a wife and mother. I don't know if thats relavant to the discussion, I just thought that was neat.

Look at it this way, when someone dies we bury them. Even if we don't bury them they are never the less dead. You can also, believe the Gospel, be dead to sin and filled with the Holy Spirit well before baptism. Why would we suppose that such a person is not in Christ. I just don't get it.

 

[Apathe]

I accepted Christ a year before getting around to being baptised, they didn't have a baptismal on board my ship. Being in the Navy it leaves me to wonder if something had happened and I died, fighting a fire of something, if I would spend eternity without God on a technicality. I was baptised as a Catholic, after accepting Christ I was baptised in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, later I was baptised in the name of Jesus and none of this determines whether or not I was in the Lambs Book of Life.

Now don't get me wrong I think baptism is important. When a woman was married one of the things she would do is be baptised in her wedding dress. It symbolized her death to her old life as a child and a daughter, and her rising up to live as a wife and mother. I don't know if thats relavant to the discussion, I just thought that was neat.

Look at it this way, when someone dies we bury them. Even if we don't bury them they are never the less dead. You can also, believe the Gospel, be dead to sin and filled with the Holy Spirit well before baptism. Why would we suppose that such a person is not in Christ. I just don't get it.

I'll answer your question this way. There are some fundamentalists that believe that if you sinned (even on accident) right before you die without praying and asking for forgiveness then you will be doomed. I feel that this is certainly bogus. Christ's blood washes away your sins in retrospect as well as in future as long as you are striving to be a Christian. The same would apply for baptism. If you WANT to be baptised but are somehow stopped from doing such (by instant death, whatever) the grace still covers you because you are STRIVING to do God's bidding. If you are a homosexual and refuse to believe the NT condemns homosexuality but are STRIVING to do God's bidding otherwise, grace does NOT cover you because you are consciously disobeying God's law (at least the part you don't want to do). Baptism is the same thing. If you consciously disobey the baptism part just because you don't feel it's "necessary" for salvation then grace does not cover you. God will judge based on the situation, but I sure wouldn't want to be the person who knew what God commanded in the NT and purposely didn't do it.