Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Florida College]

And you are taking a guess at what God will do. That is what I am doing also. Our guesses are different and both have valid points. Of course that I feel that mine is more convincing, because otherwise I wouldn't believe how I do. Same is true for you: Obviously you feel that your points are more convincing, because otherwise you would believe differently. The thing to remember is, our guesses are just that.

Aaron11,

Heb-12-2 was not guessing. His use of Acts17:30, 2 Thess.1:8, and Acts 2:38 clearly pointed out God's commandments and the necessity of obeying them. You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that they can decide if they will obey or not?

You flatter yourself. Thus far in your postings, you have shown yourself to be something other than a bible student. Heb-12-2's reasoning is sound and scripturally based. Your reasoning is based on your guesses! If you have approval from God for such action, you should share it with us. If you don't, you need to look yourself in the mirror (James1:22-25) and try to figure out what you're really doing. Teaching carries a solemn charge of accountability (James3:1).

FC

 

[Florida College]

I think saying that obedience is necessary for salvation is misleading. I think that people who choose Christ are saved and I think that people who choose Christ follow His way.

However I think that if you are going to say that obedience is necessary for salvation, you have to be a little more specific, because no one is going to obey God perfectly.

Aaron,

2 Thess.1:8 and Heb.5:9 settles the matter. Obedience is necessary for salvation. The real issue is in the way you choose to reason. I couldn't help but notice your use of the expression "I think" - - 4 times in just 3 sentences. While you may have trouble accepting what is happening, you are clearly elevating your thinking over scriptural teaching.

I also recall your statement a few pages back about Florida College being as silly as it gets. So, how long did it take you to figure it out and leave? Surely you didn't stay around very long in such a silly atmosphere? So, how long were you there?

FC

 

[Florida College]

Aaron11,

Heb-12-2 was not guessing. His use of Acts17:30, 2 Thess.1:8, and Acts 2:38 clearly pointed out God's commandments and the necessity of obeying them. You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that people can decide if they will obey or not?

You flatter yourself. Thus far in your postings, you have shown yourself to be something other than a bible student. Heb-12-2's reasoning is sound and scripturally based. Your reasoning is based on your guesses! If you have approval from God for such action, you should share it with us. If you don't, you need to look yourself in the mirror (James1:22-25) and try to figure out what you're really doing. Teaching carries a solemn charge of accountability (James3:1).

FC

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

"You flatter yourself. Thus far in your postings, you have shown yourself to be something other than a bible student."

I can't help but to completly disagree.

"Heb-12-2's reasoning is sound and scripturally based."
In your opinion, he is using sound reasoning.

"you need to look yourself in the mirror (James1:22-25) and try to figure out what you're really doing. Teaching carries a solemn charge of accountability (James3:1)."
And might I ask you what your ultimate purpose in this thread is???

What is all of our purposes? To get someone to beleive the way we beleive..?
To simply make a point...?
We just simply like to argue about Gods SACRED word...?

I stated my opinions long ago to those who asked, and I will do no more, for anymore is in vain.

I am still here for my own reasons... that is to somehow make a peace out of this mess.

 

[Aaron11]

Aaron11,

Heb-12-2 was not guessing. His use of Acts17:30, 2 Thess.1:8, and Acts 2:38 clearly pointed out God's commandments and the necessity of obeying them. You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that they can decide if they will obey or not?

You flatter yourself. Thus far in your postings, you have shown yourself to be something other than a bible student. Heb-12-2's reasoning is sound and scripturally based. Your reasoning is based on your guesses! If you have approval from God for such action, you should share it with us. If you don't, you need to look yourself in the mirror (James1:22-25) and try to figure out what you're really doing. Teaching carries a solemn charge of accountability (James3:1).

FC

Sorry if I don't know exactly who everyone is that will be saved. I am not God. If you pretend to know what will happen in every case, keep feeling good about that. However, it seems that you are overestimating your own wisdom if you think that by the bible you can figure out every case by your special hermenutic formula.

I would argue these points about whether or not God would have mercy on someone who didn't get a chance to know Him or get baptized, however, I do not want to argue about that on this thread. Start one if you want and invite me, I will come.

You said:

"You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that they can decide if they will obey or not? "--FloCol

So do you want me just to not speculate? Guess what... I DO teach people to be baptized. Guess what else, I do speculate (and so do you) on the what if questions that we know probably do occur. I am not ready to say that my view on every issue is as crystal clear as Gods. I do not think that I can say what will happen to those in the situations I mentioned earlier FOR SURE. However, you and I can both take our semi-educated guesses. One thing about it, I wouldn't hold your standard of mercy+justice too incredibly high, it is just your best speculation.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Aaron11,

Heb-12-2 was not guessing. His use of Acts17:30, 2 Thess.1:8, and Acts 2:38 clearly pointed out God's commandments and the necessity of obeying them. You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that they can decide if they will obey or not?

You flatter yourself. Thus far in your postings, you have shown yourself to be something other than a bible student. Heb-12-2's reasoning is sound and scripturally based. Your reasoning is based on your guesses! If you have approval from God for such action, you should share it with us. If you don't, you need to look yourself in the mirror (James1:22-25) and try to figure out what you're really doing. Teaching carries a solemn charge of accountability (James3:1).

FC

So you are saying that if Christ lives inside of you and you are disobiedent that God will send himself to Hell?

according to Eph 2:4-6 God puts us in the heavenly
how does he do this 1 cor 12:13
according to 2peter 2:20-22 a believer can go back to sin yet god is faithful to save them still in 2 peter 3:9

you say keep the commandment but in Romans 4:14 it says But if they which are of law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made is none effect.

once again we are saved by grace eph 2:8

and according to titus 3:5 Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit



once again FC you ingnor verses that disagree with your statements

This is a difference of Intial[past] salvation Eph 1:4 put in to Christ

Present tense salvation we have god living inside of us whether we decide to use are inheritance is decided by are choice ...but this only affects are relationship with God or we are enemies of God ......but God will Heb 12:6-11 displine his sons to help them mature in Christ

Future salvation when we are perfected in body soul and spirit 1thes 5:23

you ask you verses to harmonize ......harmonize these verses with yours

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Sorry if I don't know exactly who everyone is that will be saved. I am not God. If you pretend to know what will happen in every case, keep feeling good about that. However, it seems that you are overestimating your own wisdom if you think that by the bible you can figure out every case by your special hermenutic formula.

I would argue these points about whether or not God would have mercy on someone who didn't get a chance to know Him or get baptized, however, I do not want to argue about that on this thread. Start one if you want and invite me, I will come.

You said:

"You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that they can decide if they will obey or not? "--FloCol

So do you want me just to not speculate? Guess what... I DO teach people to be baptized. Guess what else, I do speculate (and so do you) on the what if questions that we know probably do occur. I am not ready to say that my view on every issue is as crystal clear as Gods. I do not think that I can say what will happen to those in the situations I mentioned earlier FOR SURE. However, you and I can both take our semi-educated guesses. One thing about it, I wouldn't hold your standard of mercy+justice too incredibly high, it is just your best speculation.

ephesians 1:4 as He hath chosen us before the foundation of the world

who did he chose..... 1 cor 1:26-30 the weak and foolish of this world
what did they do to believe ....Romans 4:5 those that do not work but believe

does good work get you there...No titus 3:5 it by His mercy

Holy Spirit baptises us into Christ 1 cor 12:13 , Eph 2:4-6

hope to help a brother in Christ out

 

[Florida College]

Sorry if I don't know exactly who everyone is that will be saved. I am not God. If you pretend to know what will happen in every case, keep feeling good about that. However, it seems that you are overestimating your own wisdom if you think that by the bible you can figure out every case by your special hermenutic formula.

First of all, it is not your place to determine who will be saved. If you were a diligent bible student that respected God's word, you would be stressing the importance of faith and obedience (which includes baptism), rather than finding loopholes which cast doubt on the necessity to obey God? Who says we have to figure out every hypothetical case that can be imagined? My formula for teaching is simple - - it is based on 1 Pet.4:11a. What is yours based on?

I would argue these points about whether or not God would have mercy on someone who didn't get a chance to know Him or get baptized, however, I do not want to argue about that on this thread. Start one if you want and invite me, I will come.

There is little doubt in my mind that you would argue. What I am looking for is your ability to discern the scriptures. Thus far, you have given me nothing to work with. You simply don't use the scriptures. You resort to your own cute quips to "teach(?)." The power is in the word (Rom.1:16) - - not in your guesses at what God will do.

You said:

"You are the one guessing concerning people being saved without being baptized. Why do you feel the necessity to guess at things? Why not simply teach people what God has commanded so that they can decide if they will obey or not? "--FloCol

So do you want me just to not speculate? Guess what... I DO teach people to be baptized. And you also teach that there are hypothetical situations (or loopholes) which suggest that we really don't have to obey God in baptism. Guess what else, I do speculate (and so do you) on the what if questions that we know probably do occur. No. This is one time that I can tell you from my heart that you are definitely wrong. I can do nothing to influence the outcome of those who have passed from this life to eternity. My concern is to teach God's plan of salvation to those that are alive and can respond to it. I am not ready to say that my view on every issue is as crystal clear as Gods. I do not think that I can say what will happen to those in the situations I mentioned earlier FOR SURE. However, you and I can both take our semi-educated guesses. One thing about it, I wouldn't hold your standard of mercy+justice too incredibly high, it is just your best speculation.

What is my "standard of mercy+justice"? If you mean both the "goodness and severity of God," (Rom.11:22), then that is one view that definitely has to be considered. I am making no "semi-educated guesses." That is how we are different. You show absolutely no respect for 1 Pet.4:11a. Why is that? Is it not included within the realm of 2 Tim.3:16-17? I have concluded that it really doesn't matter what the bible says. You are bound and determined to do things your way, no matter what.

 

[western kentucky]

Aaron,

I apologize if this takes us off subject, but I would like to know more about how you view the bible. Debating other issues is pointless if you don't believe that all scripture is the inspired word of God. If I remember right, you stated that you believe that the bible should be viewed as a collection of documents, some inspired by God and others historically written by man (please correct me if I quoted you wrong). How did you come to this conclusion? If this is too in depth, then we should start another thread. I notice that you rely on "logic and philosophy" instead of God's word, so I'm sure this has to be related to your view of the bible. How do you deal with scriptures like 2 Tim. 3:16-17? "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."

 

[Florida College]

Aaron,

I apologize if this takes us off subject, but I would like to know more about how you view the bible. Debating other issues is pointless if you don't believe that all scripture is the inspired word of God. If I remember right, you stated that you believe that the bible should be viewed as a collection of documents, some inspired by God and others historically written by man (please correct me if I quoted you wrong). How did you come to this conclusion? If this is too in depth, then we should start another thread. I notice that you rely on "logic and philosophy" instead of God's word, so I'm sure this has to be related to your view of the bible. How do you deal with scriptures like 2 Tim. 3:16-17? "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."

western kentucky,

Good observation. We are in agreement. The Lord clearly points out that there are only two sources of authority in Matt.21:23-27 - - from heaven (from God) or from men. Avoiding the scriptures while appealing to one's own logic and philosophy falls under the realm of man's authority.

FC

 

[Aaron11]

First of all, it is not your place to determine who will be saved. If you were a diligent bible student that respected God's word, you would be stressing the importance of faith and obedience (which includes baptism), rather than finding loopholes which cast doubt on the necessity to obey God? Who says we have to figure out every hypothetical case that can be imagined? My formula for teaching is simple - - it is based on 1 Pet.4:11a. What is yours based on? --Florida College

FC,
I do teach obedieance. I do not find loopholes unless someone makes an overgeneralization. Then I find the loopholes to point out their mistake. Since people were implying that baptism is necessary for everyone who died after Christ, I was showing them that the general statement that they were making might have exceptions, making it not completely true.

 

[Aaron11]

FYI,
I obey Christ in my life. I teach and encourage others to. I do not understand why you think that just because I do not think that baptism is what pays for our sins, that I think that we shouldn't do it. Guess what... I am baptized. I tell my friends who are learning about the gospel that they should be baptized. I tell everyone who I get a chance to tell that baptizm is what we need to do to obey our savior. You are not accurate in your portrayal of my life. You say that I am trying to find excuses for people not to obey, this is not accurate.

 

[Aaron11]

There is little doubt in my mind that you would argue. "What I am looking for is your ability to discern the scriptures. Thus far, you have given me nothing to work with. You simply don't use the scriptures. You resort to your own cute quips to "teach(?)." The power is in the word (Rom.1:16) - - not in your guesses at what God will do. "--FC
And the scriptures are not clear on what God will do in every situation, that is why we can only take an educated guess.

 

[Aaron11]

"No. This is one time that I can tell you from my heart that you are definitely wrong. I can do nothing to influence the outcome of those who have passed from this life to eternity. My concern is to teach God's plan of salvation to those that are alive and can respond to it."--FC


Well then FC, I expect you to not make general statements that include those kinds of situations.

 

[Aaron11]

"I am making no "semi-educated guesses."--Florida College

Then what are you doing? Are you fully educated on the dynamics of God's justice and mercy? Please... You are getting way to arrogant for my taste. The fact is, you can not know everything about everything just from the Bible. There are things that you aren't going to know. The spiritual dynamics of God will always be something that you could learn more on.

 

[Aaron11]

Aaron,

I apologize if this takes us off subject, but I would like to know more about how you view the bible. Debating other issues is pointless if you don't believe that all scripture is the inspired word of God. If I remember right, you stated that you believe that the bible should be viewed as a collection of documents, some inspired by God and others historically written by man (please correct me if I quoted you wrong). How did you come to this conclusion? If this is too in depth, then we should start another thread. I notice that you rely on "logic and philosophy" instead of God's word, so I'm sure this has to be related to your view of the bible. How do you deal with scriptures like 2 Tim. 3:16-17? "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."

Thanks for asking Derek,

-Yes, I view the bible as a man written book which is partially revealed by God. Some of the scripture that was in the bible is DEFINETLY revealed by God [Revelation for example(God revealed it in a dream)].

-Sometimeswe can know that parts of texts are DEFINETLY of God. For instance, when Luke quotes Jesus, that is Jesus speaking. Since Jesus was God, His words are God's words.

-I know that Genesis and some of the other early OT books were given to Moses by God (it says so). Those were obviously revealed by God.

-Paul writes in some of his letters, "Now, this is of God". And in other parts of the same letters he writes, "this is of my own accord" (not perfect quotes, but if you don't believe me that it says it, I will get perfect quotes for you). These phrases by Paul indicate to me that some of his writing was revealed to him by God and some of it was out of his own wisdom and knowledge of the gospel. Don't get me wrong, Paul obviously understood the gospel pretty well and even the non-revealed parts of his letters definetly should be given good consideration.

-Some books appear to claim other sources than inspiration and do not claim inspiration at all. For instance, the classic examples are Luke and Acts. Luke wrote those books as a historian wrote them. He sent them as letters to Theopholis to create an orderly account of the things that had happened (Luke 1:1-4). He also said how he got his information. He never said that it was revealed to him. Instead, he said that he collected information from eyewitnesses and from personal investigation. This suggests that Luke and Acts are not revealed to man by God. However, does that mean I should throw them out? Of course not. An accurate compilation of the history of Christ and the apostles is more than a little useful. It just means that I should realize that when I read Luke and Acts, I am reading a historical document that doesn't seem to be revealed by God.

-2 Timothy 3:16. Well, for one we have to realize that Paul is definetly not speaking of the NT scriptures at this point. We know this because Paul refers to the scriptures as the scriptures that Timothy was brought up learning (the OT). Also, we have reason to believe that not all of the OT was revealed by God by miraculous inspiration. Much of it was gathered as history and genealogies that were kept as Jewish record. Many of the Proverbs are not from Israelites, they are Solomon's collection of proverbs that originated from other kings that were of Gentile descent. I think that God-breathed indicates more of a harmony with God's nature. I do not think that it necessarily means that they were revealed miraculously all of the time. And I know that it was talking about the OT, the NT wasn't even written fully by then and it definetly was not collected as the bible. That took a good 400 years to get the canon. If we take 2 Tim 3:16 too literally, without looking at context, we will not know what scriptures Paul is talking about. However, from the context we can easily determine that he was speaking of the OT.

-"I notice that you rely on "logic and philosophy" instead of God's word, so I'm sure this has to be related to your view of the bible."--Western Kentucky

I base my logic and philosophy on what I know about God. I learn this through the inspired and purely historical texts of the bible. I also learn this from practical experience and my dealings with the world God has created. I attempt to base my logic and philosophy on God and a HUGE part of how I know about him is through the bible. I am not discrediting the bible. I am just not wanting to diefy it and make it something that it is not.

 

[evangelist]

Evangelist,

First, before I say anything, I would like to apologize to you. I read over my last response, and I came across a lot more sarcastic than what I had intended. My purpose is to teach the truth, and not to cut you down in any way.

You said, "We have so many more religious people that go down in the water a sinner and come up a worst sinner as before.

I know , when I was baptized by the church of Christ in Boston, I was still selling and buy crack and even more when I got baptized, i wished I did have a chance to renew my mind in these last days.."

My response: After hearing God's word (Rom. 10:17) and believing (Mark 16:16), one must repent (Acts 2:38). If one is truly following God, he will do a complete turn around, and strive to follow God's commandments. Repentance is a necessity! It is not optional! After one repents, he must make the confession that Jesus Christ is the son of God (Acts 8:37). Then after following these commandments, one must be baptized (Mark 16:16). One is not following God's commandments if he hears, believes, confesses, and is baptized without repenting. After hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and baptism, it is also important that one must continue to follow all of God's commandments (Col. 1:22-23). These are all part of the steps of salvation, and not one of them should be neglected. I hope this helps......

Thank you for apologizing but you , and no one else can make me get in the flesh and make me mad , because I am led by my spirit not by my flesh, I am a son of God .

The reason why I don`t really repent the way I should is because i was doing a traditional baptism to please my friend because he told me i had to get baptized , but my heart and my soirit was ready, and didn`t really make a choice.
I was led by a religious spirit to do the baptisim instead of being led by the Holy Ghost and God love to baptized, and know why i am getting baptized.

This is why i like to disciple a person first before they get baptized so that their heart is right with God and some times that is a process, and a renewing of the mind.

This is why I first intruduce people first to Christ jesus before doing any rituals, or traditions.
I start them to get their inside cleaned up so latter the Spirit can clean up the out side , including a outward baptism of that which was done already on the inside, get my point??


God Bless

 

[western kentucky]

I was led by a religious spirit to do the baptisim instead of being led by the Holy Ghost and God love to baptized, and know why i am getting baptized.

I guess I really don't understand what you are saying.... If you don't mind, could you explain it a little more...?

This is why i like to disciple a person first before they get baptized so that their heart is right with God and some times that is a process, and a renewing of the mind.

This is why I first intruduce people first to Christ jesus before doing any rituals, or traditions. I start them to get their inside cleaned up so latter the Spirit can clean up the out side , including a outward baptism of that which was done already on the inside, get my point??.

Yes... I do understand your point... But, I would like to bring a few points to your attention.

Acts 8:35-39 - Then Phillip opened his mouth, and beginning from scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look? Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" And Phillip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God." And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Phillip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

We know that when Phillip preached to the eunuch, he preached Jesus. We can also infer without a doubt, that when Phillip preached Jesus, he preached baptism (verse 36: As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"). If I am quoting right, you believe that one should be baptized, but only as an outward sign, correct? Let's take a look at a few scriptures...!

Acts 16:33 - and he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Acts 22:16 - Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

After realizing the need for Christ, why is essential for one to be baptized "immediately?" Why did Ethiopian eunuch get baptized as soon as he found water, and why did the Phillipian Jailer get baptized that very hour of the night?

As Heb has stressed several times,

Baptism: saves one (1 Pet. 3:21), is for the remission of one's sins (Acts 22:16), is for one to put on Christ (Gal. 3:27), is for one to be buried with Christ (Col. 2:12), is for one to benefit from Christ's resurrection (Rom. 6:5), and is for one to be crucified with him (Rom 6:6).

According to these verses, what state is one in if he is not baptized? It can be concluded that baptism is necessary for salvation without a doubt! Do you agree with me so far? If so, I would like to narrow it down? If you believe that one must be baptized to be saved, do you believe that one must be immersed in water? I would like to keep my points as simple as I can.

 

[evangelist]

WHAT DOES THE BLOOD OF Jesus do in our repentance??

Btw I don`t believe in faith alone saves so i believe our new birth is all spiritual and the only natural part which might be involved is our mouth when we confess in the spirit.



God Bless

 

[Aaron11]

Thank you for apologizing but you , and no one else can make me get in the flesh and make me mad , because I am led by my spirit not by my flesh, I am a son of God .

The reason why I don`t really repent the way I should is because i was doing a traditional baptism to please my friend because he told me i had to get baptized , but my heart and my soirit was ready, and didn`t really make a choice.
I was led by a religious spirit to do the baptisim instead of being led by the Holy Ghost and God love to baptized, and know why i am getting baptized.

This is why i like to disciple a person first before they get baptized so that their heart is right with God and some times that is a process, and a renewing of the mind.

This is why I first intruduce people first to Christ jesus before doing any rituals, or traditions.
I start them to get their inside cleaned up so latter the Spirit can clean up the out side , including a outward baptism of that which was done already on the inside, get my point??


God Bless

Sounds gnostic.