Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Florida College]

"I can't help but notice something about your postings - - you very seldom use scripture references. Why not? "-- Florida College

My response: If you find something that is in the scriptures that is contradictory, let me know. If not, then it shouldn't matter how many scriptural references I use, as long as I am right.

Aaron11,

Okay. No problem. As I go through the posts, I will posting notes about them.
Look for them. So, if I find scriptural contradictions, you will engage in a
discussion of those particular scriptures, am I correct?

I will be off to work shortly. But will have more time this evening. Look forward
to "studying the scriptures" with you.

FC

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

"Again, all I am hearing from you is like you're saying, "Stop using the scripture"."

Have I EVER said that? no.

Once again, you missed the point about the teens... on well that was 4 pages ago so lets move on.

 

[Florida College]

I did not say that. We can not save ourselves no matter what we do. Christ saves us by His grace when we believe on Him. When someone truly believes on Christ, they will follow His teachings. His teachings include baptism. Baptism is part of our obedience to Christ, however our obedience is not what pays for our salvation.

Are you asking if there will be people in heaven that were not baptized who lived in the NT? If it is fair and merciful, yes. If it is not fair and not merciful, then no. Personally, I believe that there will be at least some people who lived in NT times and weren't baptized by immersion that will be in heaven, but that is just because I think it is just and merciful. Since I know God is just and merciful, I try to guess what He will do according to those standards. However, we are not the ones who decide who is saved and who isn't, therefore my guess is as valuable as yours.

Aaron11,

How do you justify the promoting of your opinions (see bolded text in your last paragraph) in light of 1 Pet.4:11a "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God?" Does speaking of one's own opinions and judgment fall within the realm of speaking where God has spoken? No, it doesn't. But I would like to hear your SCRIPTURAL rationale. So, exactly where do you find authority for what you are doing (Col.3:17)?

FC

 

[Florida College]

So, the conclusion to be drawn is...

Is baptism ABSOLUTELY necessary for every person who died after Christ did? Can not say yes for sure, can not say no for sure.

The apostles were to take the gospel to all the world. (Mark 16:15) In doing so, they were to teach, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." (Mk.16:16) They taught those who believed the teaching in Acts 2 to "repent and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). According to Acts 2:38, 10:48, & 22:16, baptism is commanded. Every person is required to obey this command of God. If not, why not?

Based on what I know about the character and nature of God, I draw my conclusions.

Perhaps, you will share with us your scriptural reasoning of your knowledge of the character and nature of God and why we don't have to necessarily obey his commands. I would like to understand better how this "pick and choose" process works. Surely you will help us?

Based on what you read from Luke in Acts and other letters, you draw your conclusions.

Another conclusion that is easy to draw is that Jesus said to be baptized. If we examine ourselves, we can tell whether or not we are truly converted to Christ by whether or not we are following such commands.

Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." In that verse, the teaching is that both belief and baptism are necessary for salvation. Jesus also said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." That is what Christians on this thread are trying to help those who seek God to understand. Hopefully, the interested bible student will now be able to see that your reasoning is scriptural based (assuming that this is your scriptural reasoning) and can be based on faith (Rom.10:17).

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

What actions? Quoting scripture?"

You still don't get it do you???

Satan can even post scripture. Do you think that just beccaused we are saved, that every time we posta scripture it is glorifying God? no.

I don't take the word of God very lgihtly, nor am I just gonna post scriptures in offense and defense of others beleifes, for if I were to do that, then I would think that is taking the word of God lightly.

All of your posts that you sent me were full of closed mindness and absoultly no care as to WHY i posted what I posted, and just because or don't understand it, or disagree with it, you tell me how it is in your mind.

"You are correct about you using no scripture. Therefore, you've proven nothing.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ" (Rom. 1:16)"

And you think I am ashamed of the gospel??? I carry my bible everywhere I go.

"Here is the lack of wisdom:
"For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof." (Prov. 1:29)."

The way you treat scripture shows how truly fearful you are of the Lord.

"Side note:
You obviously have no clue about proper debating. I suggest you read a book about debating. In debating, both sides are EXPECTED to present their views vigorously. It is proper to show the fallacy in the opposing view. That IS THE POINT of a debate. Both sides present their view while others watch and decide for themselves."

HAHAHA now you are telling me how to debate... oh my... wow....

Ok heb, you just proved my point that I have been making ever since post 100 and something.

A few things:

1. I know how to debate, infact crossfire is one of my favorite shows to watch, so don't me I don't know how too. Get me a debate NOT about the bible, and we will have a great time.

2. I do not Debate the word of God, but I will state I believe what I believe, and when asked, I will give o...pinions of other peoples beleifes and use scriputre as well. (REMEMBER WHEN THIS THREAD WAS JUST STARTED AND YOU DID YOUR BEST TO GET ME TO DEBATE, YOU BUT IT TOOK AGGIE ASKING ME SINCERLY WANTING TO KNOW MY BELIEFES...yeah... thats right...nothing has changed)

3. I ONLY debate if I see an open door. Aggie told me he was interested in my thoughts and beleifes, and that is how I got here in this "dsicussion" in the first place.


Now heb... I KNOW you are not going to change the way you beleive, nor do I expect you too. I am not going to sit here and try to pry open a door to put my beleifes into your head.
We are to handly the word of God soundly and lovingly.

James 3:13 "Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior and his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom."

3:17: "But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy."

Now are you sure you would want to be responsable for all that the word of God can do? Let me give you a small reminder:
Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and shaper than any two edged sword, and piericing as fas as the division of soul and spirit of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

1 Timothy 4:12
"let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show youreslf an example of those who believe."
I revolve around this verse.... but also the second.

"Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhoration and teaching."

In order to TEACH someone something, someone must be WILLING to be taught, this goes along with 2 Timothy 3:16 "For alls cripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, correcting, reproof and training in Righteousness"

What good is the word if the other person is simply just not interested? It's not, at least for that person. However, prayer and actions then take place, not the pounding of scripture.

I could care less about the rules of debating when discussing Gods word, I care about what the rules of God are when DISCUSSING the word of God.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

"Every person is required to obey this command of God. If not, why not? "


The only unforgivable sin is blaspemy of the holy spirit, sorry, but that is not baptism.

I break at least one commandment every day, am I going to tell for it? No.

 

[aggie03]

"Every person is required to obey this command of God. If not, why not? "


The only unforgivable sin is blaspemy of the holy spirit, sorry, but that is not baptism.I break at least one commandment every day, am I going to tell for it? No.

We are also told that if we don't repent that we shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5). When Peter was preaching to the Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2 he told them that is was necessary to both repent AND to be baptized for the remission of their sins.

While one may still yet sin and fall short, when they do they are to repent of that sin - to turn from it, to change their thought process about the matter at hand.

We cannot live in constant sin and hope that we will just be forgiven. Here are some scriptural examples of that:

1 John 1:9 ASV

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confessing our sins is something that we must do, and if we don't confess them then they aren't forgiven of us. This isn't my idea, this is what the Scriptures say.

1 John 1:6 ASV

If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

Can we walk in the darkness AND have fellowship with God? No.

1 John 3:6-10 ASV

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.7 My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: 8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I believe here that we're dealing with habbitual sin or one who commits the same sin habbitually. With this in mind, the one who habbitually sins does not find himself in a very good position.

So, in answer to your question, could you go to hell for your sins? Well, if they're not repented of, or if they're done habbitually - yes, yes you could.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I disagree

God has seperated our sins as far as the east is from the west"

We are to confess these sins, and strive for sanctification.

God is love, and love keeps no record of wrongs according to 1 corinthians 13. I do believe sin is a wrong...

 

[aggie03]

So what if you don't confess your sins? What if you don't repent of your sins? Do you think that you will still be saved?

This would mean then, that everyone who was an unrepentant sinner would be saved. This is the logical conclusion of what you are presenting...perhaps I am not understanding you correctly...please explain, for my benefit.

Is it this belief that allows you to claim that those who are not baptized will not suffer the penalty for ignoring a condition of our salvation as established by God?

 

[Aaron11]

"Perhaps, you will share with us your scriptural reasoning of your knowledge of the character and nature of God and why we don't have to necessarily obey his commands. I would like to understand better how this "pick and choose" process works. Surely you will help us? "--Florida College


You want to know the nature of God? I will sum it up in one word for you love. God is love. God is also just, merciful, and kind. Think of all the characteristics of Jesus and that is what God is. Since Jesus was the manifestation of God in the flesh, He is a pretty dang accurate picture of who God is.

I do not know what you are talking about with this "pick and choose" idea. I did not ever say that we don't need to follow God's commandments. However, we will never follow them perfectly all the time, so obviously it can not save us. We will have a general life direction toward Christ if we are truly converted. This is how we can know that we are saved. If we see the fruits of the spirit in our lives, it is a good indication that Christ lives in us.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

So what if you don't confess your sins? What if you don't repent of your sins? Do you think that you will still be saved?

This would mean then, that everyone who was an unrepentant sinner would be saved. This is the logical conclusion of what you are presenting...perhaps I am not understanding you correctly...please explain, for my benefit.

Is it this belief that allows you to claim that those who are not baptized will not suffer the penalty for ignoring a condition of our salvation as established by God?

There is a difference between sinning without conffession or remorse, and sinning but confessing and attempting to be sanctified.

Once again, blasephmy of the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin... that is refusing to beleive in God, I am sure you may feel differently considering I belive that one recieves the holy spirit when a person asks the holy spirit into his/her heart.

Heaven will be full of people in which we never expected would be there...

And hell is full of people with good intentions.

 

[Aaron11]

Just a comment to all on this forum. I think that the whole obedience=salvation idea is not exactly correct and it leads to trying to carry the burden of your own salvation on your own shoulders. Jesus has already done that for us. We need to be able to feel 100% secure in our Lord Jesus Christ. We also need to realize that all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Even so, Christ offers us an easy yoke and rest. I lived most of my life so far as a Christian terrified of hell. This is not what Christ wants for me. He offers me full assurance and security. When we choose Christ, we choose heaven. We do not jump in and out of salvation with every less-than perfect thought, word, or deed. We are not God and we will not obey perfectly, but that is ok because of Christ.

I can tell you right now that I am not close to perfect. I am nowhere near Christ's obedience. I struggle daily with temptation. However, I have chosen my savior. I know I am saved. I know I am safe and guarded from satan and his firey hell. I hope you all can say the same. If you are in Christ and can not say this, it is not God's will. God wants you to experience salvation right now. That salvation includes the peace that passes understanding in Christ Jesus.

 

[Spimman]

Hey Aaron - its Matt your old debate partner.

I agree, God is love, but God cannot be in the presence of sin. Just because we sin doesn't mean God doesn't love us. I do agree the Bible teaches baptism is a necessary step for us to receive forgiveness of our sins(Acts 2:38) and many others that have already been stated. We all do agree that we are saved through Grace, but it seems it is the way God shows us we gain access to His grace that we are all having trouble agreeing on. Everyone that reads this, Pray for me, my name is Matt - pray for us all to have the understanding God would wish for us to have.

 

[Aaron11]

The problem comes in when you try to understand how we can have this peace that passes understanding when our salvation is based on our obedience. Since we are not close to perfect, it seems that our peace would be sparatic and not a lifestyle. Also, Paul wrote to people telling them that they were saved. These same people were the ones that had problems just like you and I have. However, are we not saved every time we sin and then back in salvation once we ask for forgiveness? I have a hard time believing that we are in and out of salvation many times a day. This is because of my reading of the Pauline epistles and gathering the basic tone that Paul conveyed when he spoke of them recieving salvation.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Grace + anything does not = salvation.

I'll be praying for you spimman

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Yes, God has done his part, but we must also do ours. If there is nothing required of us, then why isn't everyone saved?

Also, the cleansing that takes place in BAPTISM is the "operation of God" (Col. 2:12). That doesn't sound like a "works salvation" does it?

Right, "man can not work for their salvation". But that doesn't mean that obedience is not necessary.

You need to read Mt. 7:21 again. It says that those who enter heaven are those that "doeth the will" of the Father.

did you read vs 22 about their wonderful works and how that is the same works as the apostles that you listed in Mark 16:17 interesting

so the apostles were not saved for these work either interesting even though it was God will

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

We are also told that if we don't repent that we shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:3,5). When Peter was preaching to the Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2 he told them that is was necessary to both repent AND to be baptized for the remission of their sins.

While one may still yet sin and fall short, when they do they are to repent of that sin - to turn from it, to change their thought process about the matter at hand.

We cannot live in constant sin and hope that we will just be forgiven. Here are some scriptural examples of that:

1 John 1:9 ASV

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 16:7-15 this is part of believing

Confessing our sins is something that we must do, and if we don't confess them then they aren't forgiven of us. This isn't my idea, this is what the Scriptures say.

1 John 1:6 ASV

If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth

Can we walk in the darkness AND have fellowship with God? No.[/quote]

But if we are not fellowshipping with God YET HE STILL LIVES INSIDE OF US does God deny himself .....NO

1 John 3:6-10

ASV

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.7 My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous: 8 he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I believe here that we're dealing with habbitual sin or one who commits the same sin habbitually. With this in mind, the one who habbitually sins does not find himself in a very good position.

So, in answer to your question, could you go to hell for your sins? Well, if they're not repented of, or if they're done habbitually - yes, yes you could.

So you believe that God living inside of us would not Heb 12:6-12 and turn that christian around .... isn't he all powerful?

have you read 2peter 2:20-22; 2 peter 3:9

in context your wrong.......God's word not mine

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly[person GOD choses], his faith is counted for righteous

How does one get Justified?
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

why is this was it because we were so good...Romans 3:10-11...nope

Reason because God said this is going to happen Eph 1:4

 

[evangelist]

Maybe it was to hot and instead of waiting to cool off they wanted to jump in the lake to cool off quicker .

We have so many more religious people that go down in the water a sinner and come up a worst sinner as before.

I know , when I was baptized by the church of Christ in Boston, I was still selling and buy crack and even more when I got baptized, i wished I did have a chance to renew my mind in these last days..


God Bless

 

[western kentucky]

Evangelist,

First, before I say anything, I would like to apologize to you. I read over my last response, and I came across a lot more sarcastic than what I had intended. My purpose is to teach the truth, and not to cut you down in any way.

You said, "We have so many more religious people that go down in the water a sinner and come up a worst sinner as before.

I know , when I was baptized by the church of Christ in Boston, I was still selling and buy crack and even more when I got baptized, i wished I did have a chance to renew my mind in these last days.."

My response: After hearing God's word (Rom. 10:17) and believing (Mark 16:16), one must repent (Acts 2:38). If one is truly following God, he will do a complete turn around, and strive to follow God's commandments. Repentance is a necessity! It is not optional! After one repents, he must make the confession that Jesus Christ is the son of God (Acts 8:37). Then after following these commandments, one must be baptized (Mark 16:16). One is not following God's commandments if he hears, believes, confesses, and is baptized without repenting. After hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and baptism, it is also important that one must continue to follow all of God's commandments (Col. 1:22-23). These are all part of the steps of salvation, and not one of them should be neglected. I hope this helps......