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Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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aggie03

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xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
"For faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God"

Faith is beleiving, and the Word of God is God... hmmm yeah. Through faith comes beleiving in the heart hmmm can we say romans 10:9??

Yeah we can cirlce about this for HOURS on end, but in the end, your verses does not have the same weight as YOU WILL or YOU SHALL when it speaks of what it takes WITHOUT mentioning baptism.

Don't take my word for it (not that you are anyways, even if I am using testamony and scripture combined), but pray about it man.

P.S. I don't believe one is saved by works, so why even bring up James 2:24??
**shrugs** oh well, pleasent evening FC.

I don't believe that we're saved by works either, but that doesn't mean that there aren't conditions place upon our salvation:

Luke 17:9-10 ASV

Doth he thank the servant because he did the things that were commanded? (10) Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

When we do the things that God has commanded us to do, does that mean that we've earned our salvation somehow? No, it just means that we've done what was commanded. All that we can do is say that "We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do." Even when we do everything commanded of us, that's still not good enough to earn our salvation...we have to rest fully on the grace of God. Thankfully, God tells us that when we have obeyed the things He commands, He will bestow His grace upon us.
 
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W

western kentucky

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Archangel,

You said:
47: Then petere said" Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? THEY HAVE RECIEVED THE HOLY SPIRIT JUST AS WE HAVE"

They already had the holy spirit, hence we already saved!!!!



My response: To you that proves that they were already saved. The context shows that the Holy Spirit baptism was given to the Gentiles to show God's acceptance of them. If, and I say if, the scriptures here were teaching that faith only is required for salvation, then that doctrine would harmonize with scripture. It doesn't! (John 12:42 - 43).

Now, to address your point about the Spirit of God not indwelling unsaved people. I agree. But where does Acts 10 say that the indwelling of the Spirit is what is under consideration? It doesn't. What it does say is that the Spirit came upon the Gentiles just as it did on the apostles in Acts 2 (Acts 10:47b). That is Holy Spirit baptism, not the indwelling of the spirit!

Acts 2:38: Peter said to them, "repent, and each of you be batpized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
 
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W

western kentucky

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Archangel,

You said, "Aggie, isn't Jesus' Christ love UNCONDITIONAL????"

Rom. 8:39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But what about our love for him??? There's a big difference.

John 14:15: If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matt. 7:22: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kindgom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven will enter.

2 John 1:6: And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.



 
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W

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Archangel,

You said, "Despite other veres that directly speak of slavation with/out speaking of baptisim?"

My response: What about the verses that do speak of baptism? How do you feel about those? Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16? That's why there is a need to harmonize scriptures. You can't just focus on one passage and forget another passage.

John 12:42-43: The rulers believed! They had faith! Did their faith alone save them?

 
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F

Florida College

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To all readers,

Quite a discussion isn't it?

There seems to be a lot of interest.

At the very root of this discussion is the concept of bible harmony - - making our understanding from one scripture agree with our understanding from other scriptures. A basic principle that must be accepted is found in 2 Timothy 3:16 - - "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God . . ." The bible student that truly believes that, will reject no passages of scriptures - - all scriptures will be accepted as truth - - and the understanding derived from them will harmonize with other scriptures. If there is a conflict in the way scriptures harmonize (or agree), then the fault lies in the bible student, not in the holy scriptures.

For instance, if you conclude that we are saved by faith only in John 3:16, you must harmonize that understanding with Mark 16:16 (belief + baptism = salvation). If you conclude that we are not saved by any works (Ephesians 2:8-9), then you must harmonize that understanding with James 2:24 & Philippians 2:12. And if you understand that we are saved by confession and faith (exclusively) in Romans 10:9, then that understanding must harmonize with 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38, and Mark 16:16.

The on-going discussion concerning the necessity of baptism is focused on helping bible students see when understandings are out of harmony. Thus far in the discussion (both in this thread and the last), I have seen students offer the wrong definitions for words (examples: "for" in Acts 2:38 ; "remission" in Acts 2:38 ; "antitype" in 1 Peter 3:21 @ NKJV), and then outright reject some passages (examples: Mark 16:16 ; James 2:24) because it upsets their perceived harmony. Such practices may result in a false sense of well-being for the bible student, but will not result in truth being determined. Jesus said, " You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) Amen, Lord! The truth is well within the grasp of us all; the question is, "Who has the faith to accept it on the Lord's terms?"

FC
 
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Florida College said:
Panther,

For this simple reason - - God is in charge. Jesus promised to build only one church in Matt. 16:18. It is referred to as his body in Eph.1:22-23. According to Eph. 4:5 there is one body (or one church). Like it or not, the only way we can know the New Testament church is to study the New Testament - - the names that it wore, the worship it offered, and the plan of salvation that it taught; all of which must be scriptural.

All of which are subject to interpretation. Hence, we have all these different denominations.

I am out of this debate now. It has become ridiculous and redundant for me.

Thank you for helping to prove to me further that the bible is so open to interpretation that salvation itself is something that is disagreed on.
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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western kentucky said:
Archangel,

You said, "Despite other veres that directly speak of slavation with/out speaking of baptisim?"

My response: What about the verses that do speak of baptism? How do you feel about those? Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16? That's why there is a need to harmonize scriptures. You can't just focus on one passage and forget another passage.

John 12:42-43: The rulers believed! They had faith! Did their faith alone save them?
EDITED: Yes, faith alone save's them, [For thier faith gave them grace, but they ended up putting faith in man, hence they fell.]

People came to Jesus for help and healing, and he always quoted "Your faith has healed you."
It was faith then, and still is faith.

Your verses say nohting about baptism saving you.

Mark 16:16 say's you will be condemed if you do not believe.

It is such an important thing to be baptized due to the fact you were saved to do the work of God, as we have found out, baptism gives remission of sins which will actually help you to sin less. If you try to do the work of God without being baptized, you will constantly be discouraged because of you sin.

as far as 2:38 is concerened, the word is not forgivness (despite what the NIV says) but is actually remission.

John 12:42-43 has nothing to do with what we are talking about??
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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Florida College said:
To all readers,

Quite a discussion isn't it?

There seems to be a lot of interest.

At the very root of this discussion is the concept of bible harmony - - making our understanding from one scripture agree with our understanding from other scriptures. A basic principle that must be accepted is found in 2 Timothy 3:16 - - "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God . . ." The bible student that truly believes that, will reject no passages of scriptures - - all scriptures will be accepted as truth - - and the understanding derived from them will harmonize with other scriptures. If there is a conflict in the way scriptures harmonize (or agree), then the fault lies in the bible student, not in the holy scriptures.

For instance, if you conclude that we are saved by faith only in John 3:16, you must harmonize that understanding with Mark 16:16 (belief + baptism = salvation). If you conclude that we are not saved by any works (Ephesians 2:8-9), then you must harmonize that understanding with James 2:24 & Philippians 2:12. And if you understand that we are saved by confession and faith (exclusively) in Romans 10:9, then that understanding must harmonize with 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 2:38, and Mark 16:16.

The on-going discussion concerning the necessity of baptism is focused on helping bible students see when understandings are out of harmony. Thus far in the discussion (both in this thread and the last), I have seen students offer the wrong definitions for words (examples: "for" in Acts 2:38 ; "remission" in Acts 2:38 ; "antitype" in 1 Peter 3:21 @ NKJV), and then outright reject some passages (examples: Mark 16:16 ; James 2:24) because it upsets their perceived harmony. Such practices may result in a false sense of well-being for the bible student, but will not result in truth being determined. Jesus said, " You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32) Amen, Lord! The truth is well within the grasp of us all; the question is, "Who has the faith to accept it on the Lord's terms?"

FC

... We discussed this earlier as well (before you started posting).

It's not a matter of just simply... well ok, this verses says this abut this says this, so lets even them out.

NO!

Its about the context that each verse has FIRST, which i have stated in EVERYONE OF YOUR VERSES, then you harmonize it, and infact, it is even more harmonized when you look at it the way each verse(s) is supossed to be looked at.

-1 Peter 3:21 is SYMBOLIC for what happened at Noahs ark.

-Remission of sins is also not needed for salvation but needed for the work in which God has commanded us to do, however, we shall still have salvation despite the fact we don't do that command. There is only ONE unforgiven sin.

lol Shall I say John 3:16? The Word "believe" covers A LOT OF ground, including faith.

In all, we are saved by GRACE in which we recieve by having faith. We don't get saved by water, but by blood.

Gods love is unconditional, and being baptised is nothing but a condition in which satan has caused man to think "OH **** I NEED TO BE BAPTIZED OR ELSE I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN."

Granted I will agree that baptism is nearly as important as salvation, b/c getting saved but not wanting to do the work of God is slefish and immature, but hey, Grace saves.

1 corinthans 15:2 "WILL BE SAVEd by the gospel I present to you"
Romans 10:9 "SHALL be saved"

John 3:16


How can you contend with such direct wording??? When you guys twiddle with such weak wording with your baptism scriptures in which I and many others have explained in a much simpler and correct way.
It is not faith that saves us alone for we cannot be saved on our own, of course, but it truly the grace of God, alone, that saves us.

There are others
 
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W

western kentucky

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Archangel,

You said, "People came to Jesus for help and healing, and he always quoted "Your faith has healed you."
It was faith then, and still is faith."




My response: I would like you to put some references down on that one. Faith saves us when it leads us to act (Heb. 11). I never find any passage alone that tells us that "faith alone" will save us? Can you help me out? There are many passages that stress "faith," but please find me the passage that talks about "faith alone."

You said, "It is such an important thing to be baptized due to the fact you were saved to do the work of God, as we have found out, baptism gives remission of sins which will actually help you to sin less. If you try to do the work of God without being baptized, you will constantly be discouraged because of you sin."


My response: I honestly don't have a clue what your talking about?!? Could you help me out with some scripture?

You said, "Mark 16:16 say's you will be condemed if you do not believe."




My response: Oh really? Is that all that it says? Lets see.... "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." If you don't believe, are you going to be baptized? Your point is not valid at all!

You said, "as far as 2:38 is concerened, the word is not forgivness (despite what the NIV says) but is actually remission."




My response: Site your source!

You said, "John 12:42-43 has nothing to do with what we are talking about??"

My response: Oh really! Well, lets read it again.

John 12:42-43: Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

The rulers had "faith alone." Did their "faith alone" save them? Lets read verse 43 again, "for the loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God." They had faith, but they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. Why is that? Because their faith did not lead them to act!

Western Kentucky
 
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W

western kentucky

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Archangel,

You said, "Gods love is unconditional, and being baptised is nothing but a condition in which satan has caused man to think "OH **** I NEED TO BE BAPTIZED OR ELSE I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN."


My response:

Please site your reference for that one. I'm having problems finding it.

God's love....

Rom. 8:39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Is God's love for us the only thing to be considered? What about our love for him?

John 14:15: If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

2 John 1:6: And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

western kentucky
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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"You said, "John 12:42-43 has nothing to do with what we are talking about??"

My response: Oh really! Well, lets read it again.

John 12:42-43: Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

The rulers had "faith alone." Did their "faith alone" save them? Lets read verse 43 again, "for the loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God." They had faith, but they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. Why is that? Because their faith did not lead them to act!"

???

ok, first thing first, please don't an attiude with me.


Have I not said it's grace and not faith???

Besides, are you trying to say that you have never sought man more so than God???????? Your point is invalid.

I know what 16:16 said, why did you repeat it?

If you don't believe, you will be condemed. Before that it says to believe and be baptized and you will besaved. The second part (don't beleive and be condemmed) is stating which attibute gives salvation. How do I know this? Opposite of salvation is condemnation...
If baptism is also needed for slavation it would say:
If a man does not believe [nor is baptized] he will be condemed, but that isn't what it says, does it?

"My response: I would like you to put some references down on that one. Faith saves us when it leads us to act (Heb. 11). I never find any passage alone that tells us that "faith alone" will save us? Can you help me out? There are many passages that stress "faith," but please find me the passage that talks about "faith alone." "

Their faith gave them grace, and grace is what saves them whether from hell or even hardships, for we are all under the grace of God.
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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western kentucky said:
Archangel,

You said, "Gods love is unconditional, and being baptised is nothing but a condition in which satan has caused man to think "OH **** I NEED TO BE BAPTIZED OR ELSE I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN."


My response:

Please site your reference for that one. I'm having problems finding it.

God's love....

Rom. 8:39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Is God's love for us the only thing to be considered? What about our love for him?

John 14:15: If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

2 John 1:6: And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

western kentucky

"He is faithfull even when we are faithless"

I'll site that scirpture when I have a bible.

as far as the first thing you asked: You said, "Gods love is unconditional, and being baptised is nothing but a condition in which satan has caused man to think "OH **** I NEED TO BE BAPTIZED OR ELSE I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN."

It's not int the bible, it was in my own life.
 
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