Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[western kentucky]

Evangelist,

You said:

[size=+0]Water baptism is a work is this true? We are saved by grace , and if baptism is a work then this work will cancel out grace is this true??

If we believe and fall in Love with Christ then after we will want to do what ever pleases Christ, and that includ, bible study, going to church , and you will want to pray, and love to trust God, and His Word, and help the poor and homeless, and in your christian walk get baptized as a step as following jesus and showing that you are buried in Christ.
[/size]



My response: I noticed that you used no scriptural references! Could you help me out? You say we are saved by God's grace. I absolutely agree with that without a doubt (Rom. 4:5). We do not earn our salvation through any work that we do; We are saved by God's grace. I am sure pretty sure that we both are in agreement on this. To the next point, where does it say that works are not necessary? We do not earn our salvation through works, but does this really mean that we are not required to practice in any works? Please harmonize your thinking with James 2:14-26; Hebrews 11!

If I understand correctly, you believe that it is all about love. You believe that love is to be our guide.
What is love? Is it just a warm, fuzzy feeling that we get inside. Lets see what Jesus tells us about love.

John 14:15: If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

2 John 1:6: And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

How do we walk according to his commandments. Do we just have to love him?

John 4:24: God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth.

Jesus tells us that we must worship him in spirit and truth. How do we worship him in truth? Do we just love him? Will that automatically mean that we will be worshipping him in truth? No, we must search the scriptures and search for the truth!

Don't misunderstand me! I do believe that love is very important. 1 Corinthians 13 speaks of love, and it is one of my favorite chapters in the bible. Love is very powerful; however, love is not to be our guide alone. Loving God without following his commandments is vain. Following his commandments without love is vain. They both work together!

Western Kentucky

 

[heb12-2]

Comment or not, hes not staing an opinion, hes stating historical fact.

What Spiros stated is his opinion and not "fact". And what he stated is "hysterical" not "historical".

If his quote was meant to be "historical", he gave no reliable citation but simply inserted his opinion.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Whatever floats your boat, heb.

 

[western kentucky]

To all Readers,

John 12:42-43: Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Verse 42 plainly tells us that the rulers believed! Correct? I suppose that we all are in agreement. Did their "faith alone" save them? Verse 43 plainly tells us that it didn't! Why did their "faith alone" not save them?

Faith saves us when it leads us to act (Hebrews 11). Why not act on your faith? Are you headed in the same direction as the rulers?

Acts 2:38; Acts 10:38; Mark 16:16; Col. 2:12; Acts 8:38; Matt. 28:19; Rom. 6:3.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

western.. man... sheesh buddy, we already ahd this conversation...

They ended up putting their faith in men, which is wrong... but it doesn't make them loose their salvation.

You are comparing an incident with sin to salvation.

Faith alone does not save you, faith does not save you, however, it is by faith that we recieve grace, and it is grace that saves us.

 

[western kentucky]

Archangel,

You said, "They ended up putting their faith in men, which is wrong... but it doesn't make them loose their salvation."


Where does it say that they put their faith in men? Verse 42 plainly tells us that they believed in "him." They had faith in "him," but they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. They had "faith alone" - in him - but did it save them? Verse 43: "For they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God."

You said, "Faith alone does not save you, faith does not save you, however, it is by faith that we recieve grace, and it is grace that saves us."

My response: We are saved by God's grace! Whether we have "faith alone," or "faith with works," we cannot be saved without God's grace. I understand that completely; however, where does it say that works are not necessary? Faith is a necessity; We cannot be saved without faith! But where does it tell us that "faith alone" will save us? I cannot find that verse, can you help me out?

Faith saves us when it leads us to act (Hebrews 11). Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26).

 

[heb12-2]

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

That water you speak of is actual birth.... not baptism. Being born of the spirit is beleiving, having faith, thus being saved by Grace.

First of all, I did not speak of "that water", Jesus did.
Secondly, how can "that water" refer to actual birth when Jesus is saying to be "born again" (read verse 3)?

If the water in John 3:5 is actual birth:

• Then every person that is born into this world has already done half of the requirements of John 3:5.
• Then how can a "Man" (not a baby) do it?
• Then how can that "man" be be "born AGAIN" (v.3 - "again" is not the first time) by that water?

The water in John 3:5 is clearly NOT referring to "actual birth", but is referring to being "born AGAIN"!

True Christians have always believed that John 3:5 is referring to baptism. If you want to cite "history" then how about taking a looking at this quote (note that a citation with a date is given so you can check it for yourself):

110-165AD Martyr The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus…. "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be dam_ned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)

I am not a Baptist, but consider what this Baptist said. J.R. Graves, a distinguished Baptist preacher and editor said in his paper, The Tennessee Baptist, May 17, 1884:
"The consensus of all scholars, in all ages, establishes the fact that baptism is the act referred to by the phrase 'born of water' -- and it is a Baptist doctrine."

In The Tennessee Baptist, p. 5, October 30, 1886, Dr. Graves says:
"If Brother Vaughn convinced us that 'born of water' refers to anything but the baptism of one previously born of the Spirit, we never knew it and we would have owned it to him and to our readers. It means nothing else, and no Baptist that we ever heard or read of ever believed otherwiseuntil A. Campbell frightened them away from an interpretation that is sustained by the consensus of all scholars of all denominations of all ages."

So you see, it wasn't until recently that men began this nonsense of John 3:5 referring to actual birth.

The water in John 3:5 clearly refers to baptism!

 

[heb12-2]

remission clearly defined in the dictionary as "release from guilt"

I would agree with that definition. So if baptism is in order to gain a "release from guilt" then what is your condition without baptism?

 

[heb12-2]

Read your quote from Spiros again:

Key Word Study Bible
Editor: Spiros Zodhiates.
Baptizo:
Baptism in those days was a public declaration that the Christian thus giving his testimony for Christ was willing to die for Christ following those who indeed became vctimes of persecution into death. Without the resurection of Christ and the Christian hope being a reality, such a baptism even unto death would be amockery. Therefore, the expression means to succeed into the place of those who are fallen martyrs in the cause of Christ. To baptize in its general signification means to be indetified with as the Israelites were identified witht he work and purpose of Moses (1 Cor 10:2) The baptism in or with the Holy Ghost means the work of Chirst through the miraculous effusion of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and other believers at Pentacost.
Believers are baptized or identified spiritually into the body of Chist, the church, by one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13). Figuratively, it also means to be immersed or plunged into a flood or sea as it of grevious afflictions and suffereing.

Now notice how Spiros' "history" does not reconcile with acurate historical sources?

Notice how Spiros talks about "fallen martyrs" but his comments contradict Justin Martyr that I quoted above?

I don't hear Justin Martyr talking about baptism being a "public decaration" as Spiros does.

This rules out Spiros' comments as being historically accurate.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

Uh, it doesn't rule out anything.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

First of all, I did not speak of "that water", Jesus did.
Secondly, how can "that water" refer to actual birth when Jesus is saying to be "born again" (read verse 3)?

If the water in John 3:5 is actual birth:

• Then every person that is born into this world has already done half of the requirements of John 3:5.
• Then how can a "Man" (not a baby) do it?
• Then how can that "man" be be "born AGAIN" (v.3 - "again" is not the first time) by that water?

The water in John 3:5 is clearly NOT referring to "actual birth", but is referring to being "born AGAIN"!

True Christians have always believed that John 3:5 is referring to baptism. If you want to cite "history" then how about taking a looking at this quote (note that a citation with a date is given so you can check it for yourself):

110-165AD Martyr The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever, partially on the basis of what Jesus told Nicodemus…. "He that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: 'Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.' And again: 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be dam_ned.'" (Justin Martyr "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 7, pg. 456-457.)

I am not a Baptist, but consider what this Baptist said. J.R. Graves, a distinguished Baptist preacher and editor said in his paper, The Tennessee Baptist, May 17, 1884:
"The consensus of all scholars, in all ages, establishes the fact that baptism is the act referred to by the phrase 'born of water' -- and it is a Baptist doctrine."

In The Tennessee Baptist, p. 5, October 30, 1886, Dr. Graves says:
"If Brother Vaughn convinced us that 'born of water' refers to anything but the baptism of one previously born of the Spirit, we never knew it and we would have owned it to him and to our readers. It means nothing else, and no Baptist that we ever heard or read of ever believed otherwiseuntil A. Campbell frightened them away from an interpretation that is sustained by the consensus of all scholars of all denominations of all ages."

So you see, it wasn't until recently that men began this nonsense of John 3:5 referring to actual birth.

The water in John 3:5 clearly refers to baptism!

I asked my teacher about this verse and most bibles have translated it correct... on some wording

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the[even] Spirit,.............

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

"Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God; not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit."



I have been looking for this verse forever, and i finally found it in a ladies signature

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

please read Eph 2:1-9

pay attenttion to vs 4-5

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Does anyone understand this ??

Spirit baptism no one see us being saved and being put into Christ

flesh ...us doing the work .....water baptism

 

[evangelist]

I think we need the water baptism just because it was commanded, but this is a act in out love walk not a water baptism for salvation which some think.

Do people here think everytime baptism or water is mention in the bible that mean water baptism???

God Bless

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

heh, brethern has been stating that verse all along... (Eph 2:8-9)

heh... I knew that...

sorry bether....

 

[heb12-2]

And if you were paying attention, I have given the definition.

I was paying attention. And I saw your bogus definition that you have yet to cite the source of. Several have requested it, but you have yet to give it. How can we examine it unless you give us the source?

Here is the definition of "remission" that you gave:

Definition of "remission"

1. A lessening of intensity or degree; abatement.

1. <LI type=a>Medicine. Abatement or subsiding of the symptoms of a disease. <LI type=a>The period during which the symptoms of a disease abate or subside.

Lol, did you get that from a regular dictionary? Won't you give a quote from a Bible dictionary or lexicon and cite the source.

Here, let me help you. The Greek word for "remission" in Acts 2:38 and Mt. 26:28 is "aphesis". It is Strong's #859. Now give us a definition of that word and cite the source, please.

Now compare your unidentified definition with this reliable source:
"a dismissal, release" (from aphiemi, B), is used of the forgiveness of sins and translated "remission" in Matt. 26:28; Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77; 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 5:31 (kjv, "forgiveness"); 10:43; 13:38, rv (kjv, "forgiveness"); 26:18 (ditto); Heb. 9:22; 10:18. (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words)

You have said that "remission" does not mean "forgiveness", but do you see what is said in the definition above?

You still have not answered my question concerning Mt. 26:28. Do you believe that Christ's blood only caused sin to "subside", but did not remove it fully? That is what your unidentified definition says. If you agree with that, then you are denying the power of the blood!

Let me quote you again so it can be clear what you said in regard to the word "remission". And yes, I was paying attention. I wonder if you were paying atttention to what you said yourself. Please tell us if you really meant what you said.

Remission of sins is also not needed for salvation but needed for the work in which God has commanded us to do, however, we shall still have salvation despite the fact we don't do that command.

Since Christ's blood was shed "for the remission of sins" then place "CHRIST'S BLOOD" where you said "remission of sins" and look at what it has you saying:
"CHRIST'S BLOOD is also not needed for salvation". You see, your definitions are not adding up!

Would you say, " 'we shall still have salvation' Without CHRIST'S BLOOD"?

Now you need to either admit that your definition you gave is wrong, or that you are denying the power of the blood of Christ!

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I got it from dictionary.com

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

I was paying attention. And I saw your bogus definition that you have yet to cite the source of. Several have requested it, but you have yet to give it. How can we examine it unless you give us the source?

Here is the definition of "remission" that you gave:
[/list]Lol, did you get that from a regular dictionary? Won't you give a quote from a Bible dictionary or lexicon and cite the source.

Here, let me help you. The Greek word for "remission" in Acts 2:38 and Mt. 26:28 is "aphesis". It is Strong's #859. Now give us a definition of that word and cite the source, please.

Now compare your unidentified definition with this reliable source:
"a dismissal, release" (from aphiemi, B), is used of the forgiveness of sins and translated "remission" in Matt. 26:28; Mark 1:4; Luke 1:77; 3:3; 24:47; Acts 2:38; 5:31 (kjv, "forgiveness"); 10:43; 13:38, rv (kjv, "forgiveness"); 26:18 (ditto); Heb. 9:22; 10:18. (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words)

You have said that "remission" does not mean "forgiveness", but do you see what is said in the definition above?

You still have not answered my question concerning Mt. 26:28. Do you believe that Christ's blood only caused sin to "subside", but did not remove it fully? That is what your unidentified definition says. If you agree with that, then you are denying the power of the blood!

Let me quote you again so it can be clear what you said in regard to the word "remission". And yes, I was paying attention. I wonder if you were paying atttention to what you said yourself. Please tell us if you really meant what you said.



Since Christ's blood was shed "for the remission of sins" then place "CHRIST'S BLOOD" where you said "remission of sins" and look at what it has you saying:
"CHRIST'S BLOOD is also not needed for salvation". You see, your definitions are not adding up!

Would you say, " 'we shall still have salvation' Without CHRIST'S BLOOD"?

Now you need to either admit that your definition you gave is wrong, or that you are denying the power of the blood of Christ!

WHOA!!! You need to just step back and chill out.

I have NEVER said anything about Christs blood not giving us salvation, infact, I have stated many times that it is Christ blood that saves us, His blood and His blood only, not water of a baptism for water of a baptism has nothing to do with Grace. Jesus Christ's blood is grace.

It's all about the translation, for water, it's remission, for blood, it's forgivness, if you disagree, then fine, disagree.
Iw oudl like to add that I would have placed that part of the defintion (the one you stated) if it was in correct context of water, but it is not.

I am sure that you know that forgivness and remission do not mean the exact smae thing, so obviously there is one correct word to be used, so use the right one.

Now heb, due to you last comment:
"Now you need to either admit that your definition you gave is wrong, or that you are denying the power of the blood of Christ!"



I am not longer going to reply to you until I hear an appollogy from you about your attitude and complete lack of respect you have jsut given me. My definition was not wrong, you can check it if you want, and plus I have NEVER denied anything about the power of the blood of Jesus Christ, infact, I have said otherwise.
Some people would end this saying: "Get off your pedistal"

Should I be one to tell you this? nah.

Good day.

 

[heb12-2]

I asked my teacher about this verse and most bibles have translated it correct... on some wording

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the[even] Spirit,.............

NONE of the word-for-word translations that I have looked at translate it that way. The KJV don't, the NKJV don't, the NASB don't. Even most of the loosely translated Bibles do not translate it that way. If your teacher says "most bibles" translate it that way, then I believe your teacher is mistaken on this one.

If "water" means "Spirit" in John 3:5, why does "water" not mean "Spirit" in Acts 8:36-39?

 

[Florida College]

Water baptism is a work is this true?

Yes. Baptism is a work.
This is what I based my conclusion on: The Greek noun that is frequently tranlated &#8220;work&#8221; in the New Testament is &#8220;ergon.&#8221; Ergon is defined in Young&#8217;s Analytical Concordance as work, a deed, or business; Vine&#8217;s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines it as work, employment, or a task. Ergon appears 176 times in the KJV of the N.T. It is tranlated &#8220;work&#8221; 152 times, &#8220;deed&#8221; 22 times, &#8220;doing&#8221; 1 time, and &#8220;labour&#8221; 1 time (according to Strong&#8217;s). It is translated &#8220;deed&#8221; in Col.3:17, &#8220;And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.&#8221; Since baptism is a deed that is done &#8220;in the name of the Lord&#8221; (by his authority), then baptism is a work.

We are saved by grace , and if baptism is a work then this work will cancel out grace is this true??

Yes. I do believe we are saved by grace i.e. Rom.3:4, Eph.2:8-9, ***. 3:7. But I do NOT believe that grace is the only factor in man&#8217;s salvation. Titus 2:11 says, &#8220;For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men&#8221; (NKJV). But I conclude that all men will not be saved when I read Matt. 7:13-14, &#8220;Enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.&#8221; Therefore, the understanding is that man is saved by grace, but NOT by grace alone.

Does baptism cancel out grace? We have previously determined that man is saved by grace, but NOT saved by grace alone. So, it must be concluded that other factors are involved in man&#8217;s salvation. What are those factors? A quick reading of Eph.2:8-9 or Rom.4:2-5 would lead us to eliminate all works: thus, we are saved by faith. Correct? End of story. Right? Not quite. We have already concluded that baptism is a work (ergon). Correct? But, according to John 6:28-29, Faith is also a work! &#8220;Then they said to Him, &#8216;what shall we do, that we may work [ergon] the works of God.&#8217; Jesus answered and said to them, &#8216;This is the work [ergon] of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.&#8221; The work God required was to believe in Jesus. Faith, or belief is a work (ergon) or deed that is required. So, as you can see, the original question has become a little more complicated, hasn&#8217;t it? If we reason that baptism (a work) cancels out grace, the same logic demands that belief (a work) cancels out grace. So, what are we to do? Heb. 11:6 plainly says, &#8220;But without faith it is impossible to please him.&#8221; What a dilemma?

At this point, I would be compelled to go back and read and study Eph.2:8-9 and Rom. 4:2-5 more diligently. I would also pull out a study aid that would help me find other places in the N.T. where other scriptures discussed works and grace, or works and faith. James 2:14-26 would really open my eyes if I concluded salvation involved no works at all. And if I was a really an attentive bible student, I would recognize that Rom.4:2-5 and James 2:21-24 seem to contradict each other. But because I understood that &#8220;All scripture is given by inspiration of God&#8221; (2 Tim.3:16), I would realize that the fault would not lie in the holy scriptures, but that the fault would lie somewhere in my understanding. Studying Rom. chapter 3 and on into chapter 4 would make me realize that the works being discussed are circumcision and works required under the law of Moses. I would then study James 2, concluding that Abraham's works involved doing what God told him to (vs.21) - - to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. As I used my study aids, I would discover the depth of Abraham&#8217;s faith as he obeyed God (Heb.11:17-19). Then I would study Eph.2:8-9, concluding that the works being discussed are works that men could boast about - - or works of human merit. I might be a little confused when I studied the works of righteousness in ***.3:5, but when I remembered that Cornelius (in Act 10) was a devout man that performed righteous works, I would realize that his works of righteousness alone were not enough to save him - - he needed the gospel of Christ.

And as I sat back and allowed all that I had studied about the relationship of works and grace, and works and faith, to soak in, I would turn to turn to Matt.7:21 and read that passage. &#8220;Not everyone that says to Me, &#8216;Lord, Lord,&#8217; shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.&#8221; Okay, now I understand how it works. Salvation comes by the grace of God, not by circumcision, works under the law of Moses, human works, or works of righteousness. But according to what Jesus said in Matt.7:21, I have to do the Father&#8217;s will, or what God requires of me - - just like Abraham in James 2:24. As I consider what God requires today under the law of Christ, I conclude that after hearing the gospel, faith is required (John 3:16 ; Mk.16:16), repentance is required (Lk.13:3,5 ; Acts 2:38 ; Acts 17:30), confession of Jesus is required (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom.10:9 ; Acts 8:37), and baptism is required (Mk.16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16) to become a Christian. Now, I can take comfort in these words, &#8220;He became the author of eternal life unto all who obey him&#8221; (Heb.5:9).

After I have obeyed the Lord by doing all that he has initially commanded me to do to become a Christian, I have nothing to boast about - - and I have earned nothing - - I have simply done what God requires of me.

I then study the fall of Jericho is Joshua chapter 6. God said that he gave the Israelites the city in vs.2. But then he had commandments that they needed to obey before he gave them the city. The story is interesting and boosts my faith. I think I will share it with my friends who misunderstand the nature of the works that God&#8217;s requires of his people today.

So, to answer your question, &#8220;Does baptism cancel out grace?&#8221; The anwer is NO. It doesn&#8217;t. Baptism is an act of faith (Col.2:12) that puts one INTO Christ (Gal.3:26-27), where she/he will have redemption through his blood (Eph.1:7). Can anyone claim redemption without the blood of Christ (1 Pet.1:18-19)?

If we believe and fall in Love with Christ then after we will want to do what ever pleases Christ, and that includ, bible study, going to church , and you will want to pray, and love to trust God, and His Word, and help the poor and homeless, and in your christian walk get baptized as a step as following jesus and showing that you are buried in Christ.

God Bless

God Bless

Evangelist,

Sorry for the delay in responding. But your posts have not gone unnoticed. I share some of the same concerns as western kentucky. You are an evangelist, but in 3 postings you have yet to use the scriptures once.

FC