Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Gentle Panther]

Gentle Panther,

I notice that you speak a lot of the bible, but where are your references? If your going to speak, then speak as the oracles of God (1 Pet 4:11).

Huh? I have posted scripture in previous posts when needed. Do you want me to just list tons of passages all over the place without making any sense?

You say "They have enough contradictions on their own without me meddling." (referring to the scriptures).

Why do you speak of the bible so much when you don't truly believe in it? What contradictions do you speak of? I guess if this gets too deep, then a new thread should be started.

Due to the bible being part of the ongoing debate, I am inclined to quote it or talk about it as a frame of reference. I do believe in the bible.....but not as inerrant or inspired.

The contradictions are way too many to post here. It will totally derail this thread.

Is this just my own opinion and interpretation?

Mark 16:16: He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved (...).

Acts 2:38: Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;

Acts 10:48: And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

He ordered them to be baptized.... He did not suggest it or say that it was a good idea. Is that my own interpretation?


Western Kentucky

Yes, these scriptures are taken out of context for your own interpretation and opinion. As you can see by other posts, there are other interpretations that can be had.

 

[Gentle Panther]

Panther,

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify this point. None of can attach "strings" or conditions where God has not, but we must respect the "strings" that God has attached. Agree?
Consider grace. It has been extended to all - Titus 2:11. But all people will not be saved - Matthew 7:13-14. Therefore, doesn't it seem reasonable to conclude that salvation involves more than grace?

Eph. 2:8-9 is frequently presented to show that no obedience is required for salvation; salvation is a gift. My point about the city of Jericho is that it was also a gift (the scripture says it was "given" to the Israelites - that makes it a gift - Joshua 6:2). But when we read the story we find out that although the city was given to the Jews, they were still required to obey the commands God gave them. After it was all said and done, even with their obedience to God factored in, they did not "earn" the city - - it was given to them by God. Hopefully, this makes more sense now. The application of this principle is that there are works that are required for salvation (works of obedience) under the gospel of Christ - James 2:14-26.

". . . He [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him" - Hebrews 5:9
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved . . ." - Mark 16:16

As far as denominations are concerned, I'm not a member of any. I am a member of the church that you can read about in the New Testament.
Would you like to know more about it?

FC

I already know all about it. I lived it for many years. For some, the church of the NT is the Catholic church...for others it is the UPCI..for others is it baptist.....for others it is Church of Christ.....and so on. Why can't the NT churches be all these churches?

 

[Gentle Panther]

It just becomes a matter of harmonizing the scriptures after that. This can be tough sometimes, and I don't know of any shortcuts. It takes diligent bible study. I don't know about you, but I find that the more I study, the more there is to study. I'm amazed at the depth of wisdom that God's word contains.

FC

What about someone who is not as intelligent as you? What about someone who thinks in simple terms. How will the bible speak to them? Are they doomed due to not having the brains for diligent study?

Why is it so repugnant that all someone has to do is "believe" like Acts 2:21 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'"?

 

[Gentle Panther]

Indeed, i agree all scripture is harmonized, however, if it was in such harmony, what is the problem here then? If it was so cut and dry, then there would not be 330+ post about the issue.

Some verses appear to support baptisim, others seeem to not, so what is the true harmony that we are not getting????? We all have posted scriptures over the past two weeks since this thread has been going on. Yet we are still have gotten no where.... why is that?

My question exactly!!!!

I am also wondering why Aggie is coming down so hard on you. You have ticked him off pretty bad!!

 

[Gentle Panther]

Yes , this sound like the Church of Christ's doctrine to be water baptized to be saved.

This Church stands on this doctrine and believes so strongly the onlay way for repentance is through the natural ritual of natural water baptism , but we are saved by grace with our faith, and faith is the substance of things unseen and water you can see.

We are saved not only by faith and I don`t believe faith alone can save anybody but it is a part included in the salvation message we need.

the thing that bring us into the Kingdom of God and into the real repentance is the blood of Jesus , an the spiritual birth is that which makes us God Childrens.

The water is the symbol of the spiritual birth, and in John 3 it is explained how we are born again , and the Water is the Word of God which we need to grow , it is our food, or milk bottle , and every new born baby need food either from the breast or the milk bottle and we need to be born into eating from the Word of God the truth.

Water baptism is a work and any work which is done for salvation or grace is not grace any more so we are saved by works and this is not in the will of God.
We are saved by the Mercy and free given gift of God and all we have to do is recieve the gift of salvation and follow Christ after taken this gift in love, and then we do because we love Christ not becauise we have to prove something or obey , or do commandments, we do because we love to do in returning our love back to Christ Jesus our Lord and savior who has saved us now, and we have salvation now, not on judgement day even though I don´t believe once saved always saved because anybody after being saved can jump back into the sea, as a free dumm well.

I thought I might share my two cents I hope some could open their spirits and recieve the good news.
We are saved when we confess with our hearts and mouth.
Rom10:9 try it you`ll like it praise God.


God Bless
Evangelist

I like your two cents!!!!!

 

[western kentucky]

Evangelist,

Due to my class schedule, I can only give you a short response.

You said, "and then we do because we love Christ not becauise we have to prove something or obey , or do commandments, we do because we love to do in returning our love back to Christ Jesus our Lord and savior who has saved us now."

My response: I do believe that love is a very important commandment! I Corinthians 13 is a chapter focused on love, and it is one of my favorite chapters in the bible. I realize the need for love, but is there more involved?

John 14:15: If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

2 John 1:6: And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Love is powerful. Love is important! But what is love? Is it just a fuzzy feeling inside?

The love that Jesus speaks of in John 14:15 involves us in following his commandments. So how do we follow his commandments? We follow his commandments by worshipping him in "spirit and truth."

John 4:24: God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth?

Love is very important. But it is not our guide alone. Following his commandments without love is vain. Loving without following his commands is also vain. They both are fundamental principles of God's will. I hope this helps. I appreciate your willingness to find the truth.

Western Kentucky

 

[western kentucky]

Acts 10:48: And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[western kentucky]

Gentle Panther,

You said, "Do you want me to just list tons of passages all over the place without making any sense?"

My response: No, I obviously wouldn't ask you to do that, because that would just be annoying; however, I do ask you to put at least 1 bible reference when stating a position. 1 bible reference is better than nothing.

You said "I do believe in the bible.....but not as inerrant or inspired."


My response: How do you view the bible? How do you feel about these scriptures?

2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21.

In reference to Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and Mark 16:16 you said "Yes, these scriptures are taken out of context for your own interpretation and opinion."

My response: Telling me that I took them out of context for my own interpretation and opinion will not do me any good without an explanation? Care to help me out....??? I simply quoted scripture, how is that my own interpretation?

My own opinion?....

Acts 10:48: and he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

He ordered them. He did not suggest it or say that it was a good idea. He ordered them. My own opinion?

Western Kentucky

 

[western kentucky]

Gentle Panther,

You said, "What about someone who is not as intelligent as you? What about someone who thinks in simple terms. How will the bible speak to them? Are they doomed due to not having the brains for diligent study?

Why is it so repugnant that all someone has to do is "believe" like Acts 2:21 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'"?


My response: If someone has the capability to have faith, then I'm pretty sure that they are quite capable of understanding repentance, confession, and baptism. Are they more difficult to understand, or are they just impossible to harmonize with your belief sytem?

Acts 2:21 is a great verse: "AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'"

What about Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone that says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter."

John 12:42-43: Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in him, but b/c of the Pharisees they were not confessing him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

If "faith alone" was the only condition we are to meet, then why weren't the rulers saved?

Western Kentucky

 

[jesusfreak54]

actually I think is all pretty simple I mean how hard is it to understand that when it says in 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism now saves you. I mean we have to put all these Scriptures together to get what we need to do. I know this has been said before but I just wanted to post

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren,

Thanks for the comments about Eph. 2:8-9. While I plan to comment in more detail later, for the time being, here is what I want you to consider:

My thoughts from an earlier posting (#353) . . .
Here is what I conclude from Ephesians 2:8-9 . . .
We are saved by faith in God's grace. Being saved by faith means not just saying "Lord, Lord," but doing all that he requires. Faith leads one to repent of their sins (Lk.13;3,5 ; Acts 2:38), to confess Jesus (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom. 10:9), and to be baptized (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38). When those commands are obeyed, man has not earned a thing, he has simply obeyed God, as required in Hebrews 5:8-9.

It seems that you have concluded that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, and we do not have to obey the other commands of God. I cannot accept that conclusion based on the scriptures. I ask that you look at the "works" that are given in the various contexts of scripture (Rom. 2:8-9 ; James 2:14-26 ; Rom. 4:5 ; Titus 3:5 ; & others) before jumping to the conclusion that we don't have to do any works to to be saved. Jesus teaches us that we must do the Father's will (Matt. 7:21) and the Hebrew writer said that we must obey Jesus (Heb. 5:9). I sense there is a conflict of understanding here that needs to be clarified.

Acts 2:38 - - repentance + baptism = remission of sins
3,000 Jews gladly accepted the message of salvation (vs. 41). Why shouldn't our faith prompt us to follow their example?

Until later.
FC

So a Father can say I disown a Son Not according to

Gal 4:6-7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying ABBA FATHER. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied [mentally fall apart] and faint[tired] in your [soulish/emotional] minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.[like Christ] 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto son's, My son despise not thou chastening of the Lord, not faint[tired] when thou art rebuked of him:....proverbs 3:11-12 .....6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he recieveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, whereof all are partakers, then are ye Ba$tard$, and not sons. 9 Futhermore we have had fathers of our flesh[Romans 2:20] which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of Spirit, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

chastening brings peaceable fruit of righteousness... so before chastisement they were UNRIGHTEOUS

but still sons.....


1 cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the LORD, that we should not be condemned with the world.....this is a PROMISE

So If a Believer does not love another believer so to show his love for the Father as he is commanded...

HE will GET HEBREWS 12:6-11 SOMETIME SO STEP BACK

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

actually I think is all pretty simple I mean how hard is it to understand that when it says in 1 Peter 3:21 Baptism now saves you. I mean we have to put all these Scriptures together to get what we need to do. I know this has been said before but I just wanted to post

Context reasons

1. Peter is writing to the church in which they have already have already been saved.

2. "baptism now ssaves you" is symbolic for Noah and flood. The flood washed away all wickedness of the world and allowed it to be easier for noah to start all over. If you don't beleive me, read the whole chapter and keep in context. Then if you want to, read commentaries on the bottom (if it has commentaries). Course, they are not as reliable, but nevertheless, they are bible scholars and coincedently, me and the author seem to have the same point of view.

Now, Jesus freak, what of Romans 10:9??? (prolly about 10th time I have posted this scripture).
It states we shall be saved, but mentions nothing about baptism. There is nothing even hinting about baptism.

All baptism passages can be looked at in a different light to make it look like you need baptism to be saved, however, there are others THAT ARE BLUNT that states you shall be saved without baptism.

Should you be baptised? Yes. Do you need it to go to heaven? No.

 

[aggie03]

What repentance in Romans 10:9 - there is nothing about repentance mentioned in that verse. Using your reasonoing, archangel, we could then say: "Should you repent? Yes. Is it necessary to get to heaven? No."

Just because baptism is not outlined as a condition of our salvation in every verse where the word "saved" appears, does not mean that it is not any less a condition than repentance.

 

[western kentucky]

ArchAngel,

You said, "what of Romans 10:9??? (prolly about 10th time I have posted this scripture). It states we shall be saved, but mentions nothing about baptism. There is nothing even hinting about baptism."


My response: What about Rom 10:9? I'll type it out. "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved; This is a good verse. What about Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 10:48?

You said, "All baptism passages can be looked at in a different light to make it look like you need baptism to be saved, however, there are others THAT ARE BLUNT that states you shall be saved without baptism."

My response:

You can look at Rom 10:9 and say "There is no need for baptism, this verse mentions nothing of it."

But wait... Before you draw conclusions, what about the rest of the bible?.... What about Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 10:48; These scriptures tell you to be baptized. You can't pick and choose a verse, and throw out others. ALL SCRIPTURE MUST BE HARMONIZED. After you combine them together, you will realize that you need to repent, confess, and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.

You said, "Should you be baptised? Yes. Do you need it to go to heaven? No"

My response: Please explain how your conclusion is in agreement with Acts 10:48: "And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

He did not suggest it, or say that it was a good idea. He ordered them to be baptized. Just a few things for you to think about.

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

keep reading.... verse 10 (NIV.. blah.. my only bible I have handy) For it is with your heart that you beleive and are justified and it is with you mouth that you confess and are saved.

Confess can be referenced as repenting.

11 as scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame

So I am trusting the Lord, YES!!! Yet i never get achance to be baptised... ****!!! LORD I TRUSTED YOU NOW I AM GOING TO HELL!! "right."
11 clearly shows that just simply trusting in Lord will cause you to not be shamed, even trust in salvation.


13 sums it up quite well
13: for, "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord WILL be saved."

But from the looks of your sig, aggie, it appears that you know Romans 10 somewhat well.

I want to add 1 corinthians 15...
Verse 2 "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have beleived in vain.

The rest of the chapter goes into paul speaking of that gospel. No baptism.

Infact, baptism is not even mentioned until verse 29. No affiliation with the beginning of the chapter, but if you are willing to discuss, we shall.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1 cor 3:12 - 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.

dealing with works and why they are not dealing with salvation

DEFINITION....works is anything involved with action

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

ArchAngel,

You said, "what of Romans 10:9??? (prolly about 10th time I have posted this scripture). It states we shall be saved, but mentions nothing about baptism. There is nothing even hinting about baptism."


My response: What about Rom 10:9? I'll type it out. "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved; This is a good verse. What about Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 10:48?

You said, "All baptism passages can be looked at in a different light to make it look like you need baptism to be saved, however, there are others THAT ARE BLUNT that states you shall be saved without baptism."

My response:

You can look at Rom 10:9 and say "There is no need for baptism, this verse mentions nothing of it."

But wait... Before you draw conclusions, what about the rest of the bible?.... What about Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 10:48; These scriptures tell you to be baptized. You can't pick and choose a verse, and throw out others. ALL SCRIPTURE MUST BE HARMONIZED. After you combine them together, you will realize that you need to repent, confess, and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.

You said, "Should you be baptised? Yes. Do you need it to go to heaven? No"

My response: Please explain how your conclusion is in agreement with Acts 10:48: "And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

He did not suggest it, or say that it was a good idea. He ordered them to be baptized. Just a few things for you to think about.

This is why I ask people TO NOT jsut jump into a thread without knowing a bit about what has already been said....

I am going to skip to the very last thing you said just b/c I hate repeating myself, if I am ina good mood, I will elaborate on the rest of what you said at the end of this post.

"My response: Please explain how your conclusion is in agreement with Acts 10:48: "And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


The question I ask you is this... WHY do you need to be baptized? WHY did he order them???? This is why I have said you should get baptized. It's an order.

Baptism does not save you. Just for a moment, look at every scritpure dealing with baptism and salvation.

I mean heck, I just answered this in my previous post.

hmm
wait.. i just read a few verses BEFORE your 10:48 verse.

"47: Then petere said" Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? THEY HAVE RECIEVED THE HOLY SPIRIT JUST AS WE HAVE"

They already had the holy spirit, hence we already saved!!!!

i get one of two things from this.

1. You only look at once verse, and make a doctrin out of it when all you need to do is look the verse before it and make a much more accuate statement about the verse you are stating.

or

2. You knew what it said, but you ignored trying to make a point.

either way, they both anger me. Instead of me looking at the veres you post previously, I will let you re read them and then we shall see what you think are still valid for an aregument.

Good day.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Brethren,

Thanks for the comments about Eph. 2:8-9. While I plan to comment in more detail later, for the time being, here is what I want you to consider:

My thoughts from an earlier posting (#353) . . .
Here is what I conclude from Ephesians 2:8-9 . . .
We are saved by faith in God's grace. Being saved by faith means not just saying "Lord, Lord," but doing all that he requires. Faith leads one to repent of their sins (Lk.13;3,5 ; Acts 2:38), to confess Jesus (Matt. 10:32-33 ; Rom. 10:9), and to be baptized (Mk. 16:16 ; Acts 2:38). When those commands are obeyed, man has not earned a thing, he has simply obeyed God, as required in Hebrews 5:8-9.

It seems that you have concluded that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, and we do not have to obey the other commands of God. I cannot accept that conclusion based on the scriptures. I ask that you look at the "works" that are given in the various contexts of scripture (Rom. 2:8-9 ; James 2:14-26 ; Rom. 4:5 ; Titus 3:5 ; & others) before jumping to the conclusion that we don't have to do any works to to be saved. Jesus teaches us that we must do the Father's will (Matt. 7:21) and the Hebrew writer said that we must obey Jesus (Heb. 5:9). I sense there is a conflict of understanding here that needs to be clarified.

Acts 2:38 - - repentance + baptism = remission of sins
3,000 Jews gladly accepted the message of salvation (vs. 41). Why shouldn't our faith prompt us to follow their example?

Until later.
FC

have you read 1 cor 3:12-15

vs 16 so if we are a temple of God and we sin .....does God get sent to hell??

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

well done Arch angel

 

[the Voice]

have you read 1 cor 3:12-15

vs 16 so if we are a temple of God and we sin .....does God get sent to hell??

Brethren,

Yes, I have read it. How does this negate anything that was previously said. Did you notice in vs. 14 that some works will endure and the worker will be rewarded?

FC