Is baptism necessary to be saved?

Aaron11 · May 21, 2004

Baptism can not be a requisite for salvation for all souls, or Abraham would have ran into a big problem. How about those people who don't know to be baptized? So, if it is not a requisite for ALL, then who is it a requisite for? What other requisites are there to recieving grace?

suzie · May 22, 2004

Hi Aggie. You want Scripture to "Back up " why I believe this to be? Well, I have Scripture, just as you have Scripture to believe that it is necessary.

The issue here is really what is salvation. Is it a series of actions that we do to "get the gift" of salvation? Does repeating "sinners prayer" necessary to be redeemed? Then we must be fully immersed into some type of water (or sprinkled, or poured over, water holy vs tap vs chlorinated vs natural) ......
Then, and only then will Christ accept us into His family.

Salvation is a matter of the heart. That is why you can pray the prayer, be baptized several times, volunteer all your extra hours to the church, and on and on and not ever be saved. Baptism or no baptism. God sees through to our hearts. He knows our inner most motives. He knows who is willing to give it all to Him and are truly repentative and wanting to die to their selfishness and take on Christ. When we sincerely ask Christ to be Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us. It is this Spirit that brings us to knowledge of what it is to live like Christ.

Aaron11 · May 22, 2004

No offense suzie, but you didn't offer scripture.

suzie · May 22, 2004

I'm not offended. I purposely didnt give Scripture. Let me ask you a question. Are you from the Church of Christ?

Existential1 · May 23, 2004

suzie said:
Salvation is a matter of the heart. That is why you can pray the prayer, be baptized several times, volunteer all your extra hours to the church, and on and on and not ever be saved. Baptism or no baptism. God sees through to our hearts. He knows our inner most motives. He knows who is willing to give it all to Him and are truly repentative and wanting to die to their selfishness and take on Christ. When we sincerely ask Christ to be Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us. It is this Spirit that brings us to knowledge of what it is to live like Christ.

Would you term this indwelling by the Holy Spirit to be baptism, immersion in living waters?

This would be my personal understanding: one not doctrinally or denominationally tethered; just my faith sense of truth and fact.

I would accept your above description, of the things you talk of above: especially when you fulcrum it all "in the heart"; though I might choose baptism to describe the entry, rather than salvation, but minor point, as I can equally see what you point to in that term choice.

So, to answer the OP, I would have to agree with what you seem to be saying: and say yes, baptism in this experiential sense, is necessary to cut the redemption mustard.

insub2 · May 23, 2004

dldjr86 on page 3 of this thread said:
I really don't care what the Jews done in the 1st century. I care about what the Bible says. I use it as my only authority. I get the truth from it. I go by NO creed at all, so I don't obey the will of man.

umm...dude, who wrote down the words in the bible? don't you think that you should understand the context of these words? if the first century jews (you know, the ones who wrote the gospels and most of the NT) believed baptism to be symbolic of an inner change, then if they write that baptism is a must, they just maybe by some crazy stretch of the imagination mean by that inner change is what is nessarry.

what my point is that the context of the bible is important. when you read it, you put it in the context of today. the NT was written 2000 years ago, the old, 5000. over that much time, there is an undeniable change in societies.

aggie03 · May 24, 2004

suzie said:
Hi Aggie.

Hi Suzie!

suzie said:
You want Scripture to "Back up " why I believe this to be?

I just wanted to know your reasoning from the Scriptures that led you to your conclusions

suzie said:
Well, I have Scripture, just as you have Scripture to believe that it is necessary.

Well, I believe that it's very obvious from our simple answers that we have reached different conclusions as to what the Scriptures teach.

2 Corinthians 1:17-19 ASV

When I therefore was thus minded, did I show fickleness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be the yea yea and the nay nay? (18) But as God is faithful, our word toward you is not yea and nay. (19) For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not yea and nay, but in him is yea.

This doesn't speak directly to the issue of baptism, but it does give us a principle which we can use to start the rest of our conversation. The Scriptures cannot give us contradictory answers. As we have reached conclusions that are not compatible, it necessarily means that one of us is wrong. I'm not trying to be rude, but that's the short of it. Who it is that has been mistaken is yet to be seen, it may very well be me. However, the only way that we can be certain about this is to pray, for one another and for ourselves as well, and then study together the word of God and search for an understanding.

Philippians 2:2 ASV

make full my joy, that ye be of the same mind, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind;

I do not believe that we would have so many instances in the Scriptures calling for everyone to be of the same mind if it were impossible for that to happen. This, then, ought to be our goal. The only way that I know of that we can do this is by having a conversation in which we actually discuss the Scriptures and what they say .

suzie said:
I purposely didnt give Scripture.

Then I will patiently await for a response in which you do

suzie · May 24, 2004

Whats the point of laying out prepared scripture rebuttals back and forth. I would instead like you to address my post.

suzie · May 24, 2004

Do you attend the Church of Christ?

Philo · May 24, 2004

suzie said:
Let me ask you a question. Are you from the Church of Christ?

Well, aren't you?

Philo · May 24, 2004

aggie03 said:
Philippians 2:2 ASV

make full my joy, that ye be of the same mind, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind;

I do not believe that we would have so many instances in the Scriptures calling for everyone to be of the same mind if it were impossible for that to happen. This, then, ought to be our goal. The only way that I know of that we can do this is by having a conversation in which we actually discuss the Scriptures and what they say .

Well, I assume you don't mean that Phillipians 2 suggests we should all be conformed in all our various opinions...?

And on Baptism, I'm dubious when it comes to full-immersion water baptism being the only way to benefit from Grace. I'm not a Calvinist, but I am a pragmatist... And, pragmatically, it would be rather disgraceful if God looked at someone whose life completely and accurately reflected Jesus', whose motives were always driven by a love for God and a love for his neighbors, whose whole being was devoted to honest and earnest conformity to the will of the Father and then denied him entrance into His presence due to his misunderstanding on a "key doctrinal issue." Understanding key doctrinal issues, after all, doesn't earn us heaved. The only thing that qualifies us for grace is faith. The only thing that grants grace is the blood of Christ shed on the cross.

I know a lot of people in our company like to point out Matthew 7:21-26 as a justification as per why people like the above mentioned example wouldn't make it to heaven. I think that it's mighty presumptuous to assume we aren't those saying "Lord, Lord" in the first place.

Wiggidy Wiggidy,

P-hizzle

Philo · May 24, 2004

workman said:
The above scriptures were given to the Jews as a promise of hope to come. The time when their sins and ours could be forever "taken away" and in exchange we are given a "robe of righteousness." This promise is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. He is the rich "garment of salvation" that God lovingly offers to put on each of us. He offers His "clothes" to you today if youll receive him by faith. Consider what the scriptures say about WHEN we receive these "Clothes of Salvation" by faith and the blessings that come as a result:

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were BAPTIZED into Christ have CLOTHED yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:26-29 (NIV)

"...since you have TAKEN OFF your old self with its practices and have PUT ON the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." Colossians 3:9-11 (NIV)

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to PUT OFF your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires...and to PUT ON the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Ephesians 4:22, 24 (NIV)

"Rather, CLOTHE yourselves WITH the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature." Romans 13:14 (NIV)

In the Greek language the same word for "clothes" and "put on" in the above verses is the word used in "clothed" in Galatians referring to baptism. The word is Enduo (1746) in the Strongs concordance. It means: to sink into (clothing), put on; clothe one's self. The King James version of the bible even translates the verse in Galatians as "put on" Christ rather than "clothed" as the NIV reads, however it implies the same concept.

I just wanted to point out that this is a very lazy exegesis. As each of these letters were written by the same author to different communities (who he could not reasobably expect to immediately start sharing his letters) and only one mentions baptism in conjunction to clothing one's self with Christ, it's actually more reasonable that baptism is conincident with putting on Christ and not the act of putting on Christ.

Strange reasoning can occur when we forget the context and subtext of the Bible. Lets not let ourselves become willing partakers in willful ignorance just to advance our own Holy Establishment. Scholasticism is the root of our divisions, and this is the worst kind of scholasticism.

Aaron11 · May 24, 2004

suzie said:
I'm not offended. I purposely didnt give Scripture. Let me ask you a question. Are you from the Church of Christ?

Kind of. I agree with your point. However, the guy asked for scripture and then you said you had scripture, but didn't give it. I don't think that baptism is absolutely necessary to be saved either, but that doesn't change the fact that you didn't offer scripture that you said you had. I just thought it was kinda funny.

aggie03 · May 26, 2004

suzie said:
Whats the point of laying out prepared scripture rebuttals back and forth. I would instead like you to address my post.

I don't want to rebutt, I want to discuss. I want to reason from the Scriptures with you while we both do so with an attitude of meekness and fear (1 Peter 3:15), with speech that is full of grace and seasoned with salt (Colossians 4:6).

I don't have anything prepared that I am going to search through and post on here, because I don't know what you're going to say In all reality, though, I really do just want to talk with you about the word of God, and through prayer and constant diligence on our part, work together to come to an understanding of the Truth, whosoever may be correct in their initial thinking - or even if neither one of us is correct

aggie03 · May 27, 2004

suzie said:
Do you attend the Church of Christ?

I am a Christian, therefore I am:

a disciple of Christ (Matthew 28:19)
a member of Christ's body (Ephesians 5:30)
a branch on the vine (John 15)
sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:2)

Because I am a Christian I am a member of:

the household of the faith (Galatians 6:10)
the household of God (Ephesians 2:19)
the house of God (1 Timothy 3:15)
Christ's church (Matthew 16:18)
the church (Acts 8:3)
the church of God (1 Corinthians 1:2) (also translated 'assembly of God')
the church of the Firstborn (Hebrews 12:23)
the church of the Lord (Acts 20:28)
the church of Christ (Romans 16:16)
the church in College Station, Texas (Revelation 2:1, application of principle)
God's elect (Titus 1:1)
an elect race (1 Peter 2:9)
a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9)
a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9)
a people for God's own possession (1 Peter 2:9)
the Way (Acts 9:2)
the beloved of God (Romans 1:17)
the called (Ephesians 4:1)
the children of God (John 1:12)

suzie · May 27, 2004

So then you do attend the Church of Christ. I posted a post and you have yet to respond to it. I will wait for your reply.

aggie03 · May 27, 2004

suzie said:
So then you do attend the Church of Christ. I posted a post and you have yet to respond to it. I will wait for your reply.

I prefer "church of the Lord", but you can call it whatever you want so long as that's what God has called it

***EDIT***

I also think I should note that I do not "attend" the church of the Lord, but rather it is something that I am a part of.

*** END EDIT ***

I read your post, and as I have said before, you didn't use any verses from the Bible. I have asked you to do this for two reasons:

1. I would like to see your reasoning and thinking process that you have used to arrive at your conclusions.

2. I am not interested in opinions. What I think, what you think, what anyone else here thinks is not important. What God has said is important. You will do far more in convincing me that what you believe is what God intended if you use His words and not your own (at least referencing them is what I really mean ).

As it stands now, I really can't respond to what you're written because I have no idea how you've reached those conclusions, and I don't know how you believe that the sum of God's word teaches what you believe. Honestly, I really have no where to go because we have, as of yet, not talked about the word of God but only what you think. As I stated earlier, and I mean no disrespect, I am not interested in opinions. I spent a lot of time before I became a Christian listening to what people thought, and that never really got me anywhere.

suzie · May 27, 2004

The issue here is really what is salvation. Is it a series of actions that we do to "get the gift" of salvation? Does repeating "sinners prayer" necessary to be redeemed? Then we must be fully immersed into some type of water (or sprinkled, or poured over, water holy vs tap vs chlorinated vs natural) ......
Then, and only then will Christ accept us into His family.
Salvation is a matter of the heart. That is why you can pray the prayer, be baptized several times, volunteer all your extra hours to the church, and on and on and not ever be saved. Baptism or no baptism. God sees through to our hearts. He knows our inner most motives. He knows who is willing to give it all to Him and are truly repentative and wanting to die to their selfishness and take on Christ. When we sincerely ask Christ to be Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us. It is this Spirit that brings us to knowledge of what it is to live like Christ.

These are not just my thoughts. They are remarks based on Scripture. Jesus tells us "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". (John 14:6) Salvation is through Jesus alone. Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" 1 Cor 1:30 "It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness, and redemption" so that no one can boast.
"For you grant authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:2-3) "She (Mary) will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21
John 3:13-17 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven- the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."
Romans 10::17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ"
"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:5-6
"In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Ephesians 1:4-8
"And you were also included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.." Ephesians 1:11-14
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) "God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be anger and wrath. ...."
"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by a written code. " Romans 3:28-29
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. He did this to demonstrate his justice because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as tobe just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 2:20-26
"Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." Romans 5:1-2
Gods gift is etenal life It is a free gift. It is obtained by faith through grace. It is given to all who sincerely believe. Who die to self and take on Christ. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Unearned, unworthy, and yet given.

western kentucky · May 27, 2004

aggie03 said:
I am a Christian, therefore I am:

a disciple of Christ (Matthew 28:19)
a member of Christ's body (Ephesians 5:30)
a branch on the vine (John 15)
sanctified in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:2)

Because I am a Christian I am a member of:

the household of the faith (Galatians 6:10)
the household of God (Ephesians 2:19)
the house of God (1 Timothy 3:15)
Christ's church (Matthew 16:18)
the church (Acts 8:3)
the church of God (1 Corinthians 1:2) (also translated 'assembly of God')
the church of the Firstborn (Hebrews 12:23)
the church of the Lord (Acts 20:28)
the church of Christ (Romans 16:16)
the church in College Station, Texas (Revelation 2:1, application of principle)
God's elect (Titus 1:1)
an elect race (1 Peter 2:9)
a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9)
a holy nation (1 Peter 2:9)
a people for God's own possession (1 Peter 2:9)
the Way (Acts 9:2)
the beloved of God (Romans 1:17)
the called (Ephesians 4:1)
the children of God (John 1:12)

Good post!

aggie03 · May 27, 2004

suzie said:
These are not just my thoughts. They are remarks based on Scripture. Jesus tells us "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". (John 14:6) Salvation is through Jesus alone. Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" 1 Cor 1:30 "It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-that is, our righteousness, holiness, and redemption" so that no one can boast.
"For you grant authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:2-3) "She (Mary) will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21
John 3:13-17 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven- the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law."
Romans 10::17 "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ"
"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:5-6
"In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding." Ephesians 1:4-8
"And you were also included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.." Ephesians 1:11-14
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) "God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be anger and wrath. ...."
"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by a written code. " Romans 3:28-29
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. He did this to demonstrate his justice because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as tobe just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 2:20-26
"Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." Romans 5:1-2
Gods gift is etenal life It is a free gift. It is obtained by faith through grace. It is given to all who sincerely believe. Who die to self and take on Christ. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Unearned, unworthy, and yet given.

To Suzie: Thank you so much - you've made my day It was nice to come home from work and find your post

To Wester Kentucky: Thanks! It's good to see you on here again! How have you been?

Again to Suzie: I am going to read through what you have written and study it. Then hopefully I will able to discuss the word of God with you as soon as I get a nap, I'm beat . I might have some questions though before I post anything here, would it be alright to ask them here or would you rather me PM them to you, that way the thread remains more fluid?

Is baptism necessary to be saved?

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