Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[aggie03]

Then a problem arises... No one is going to obey all of God's commands. So if you MUST obey all of God's commands to be saved, none of us will, then none of us would be saved. Good thing Ephesians 2:8 is crystal clear for us on what saves us.

Does God want us to obey the things that He has told us?

 

[Aaron11]

Does God want us to obey the things that He has told us?

Yes. I completely agree that we should obey and God wants that from us.

Will anyone besides Jesus Christ completely conform to God's will? All sin. Therefore, works, can't save us. Obedience to all of God's commands all the time can not be required or else no one would be saved.

 

[aggie03]

Yes. I completely agree that we should obey and God wants that from us.

Will anyone besides Jesus Christ completely conform to God's will?

Logically this is possible. Let me explain I do not think that anyone besides Christ will ever live their entire lives without sinning (I'll insert you're next statement here:

All sin.

Romans 3:23 illustrates this very plainly. While I had the possibility to live my life without sin, I've messed it up. You had the chance, Philo had the chance, Western had the chance, ad infinitum. I agree, Scriptures plainly teach that all of us will sin.

Therefore, works, can't save us.

I agree. There is nothing that we can do that will save us from the wages that our sins have earned - death. Thanks be to God that He is merciful enough to save us through His power. I believe that this is a trustworthy statement, nothing that we can do will ever merit our own salvation - including our belief or our faith. We are NOT saved by ANYTHING but the GRACE of God. The question isn't whether or not the things we do will save us, but what has God said is necessary to receive His grace?

Obedience to all of God's commands all the time can not be required or else no one would be saved.

I agree This is why God has given provision to those who are His children to pray to Him and beg for their forgiveness when they fall short of the things that He has commanded them to do (1 John 1:9). This is a promise that is only for those who are already children of God.

 

[western kentucky]

Well, for what it's worth, Aaron believes that all scripture is inspired. He just believes that the truth was revealed by the HS to the writers of scripture, and what they wrote was completely true and "God-breathed." He doesn't believe that God chose the specific words and phrases to use. That is an extra-biblical concept, as far as I know.

If everything the writers wrote was true, does it matter that God didn't choose the exact way to express those truths? Is it so scary to think that the truth could be simple enough to be expressed in a dozen different ways and still mean exactly the same thing?

I apologize if I assumed anything about Aaron's belief's that wasn't true. From your point of view, God has inspired the writers of the scriptures, but just not in a way of "specifics." Is that correct? I just want to make sure that we are on the same page. If that is the case, I still don't feel like there is anything for me to discuss with ya'll. I look at the bible in a completely different manner, and I do believe that "specific words and phrases" matter. All scriptures harmonize together, with a common theme, and with "specifics."

I don't think so. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty."

Do you believe that Paul was right when he wrote that?

It's referring to the Law of Moses, and how those who read it without the knowledge of Christ couldn't see what God meant when he dictated it. I'm sure you know what he meant, because Jesus was rather specific when speaking about what the Law and the prophets hinge on.

In Christian Love and Liberty,

xPhilCorex

I know that Paul does speak of "liberty" in the New Testament. I have a completely different concept of the "meaning." Could you send me a few verses where Paul speaks of "liberty?" I feel much more comfortable discussing an issue when I can turn to a specific verse.

 

[western kentucky]

Here's the difference between faith and belief. They "believed" in Jesus, but they didn't have faith. If they did, then they would realize that Jesus is more important than approval. That's what saving faith does; It changes you from the inside out.

I agree with your point. I am opposing the concept of "faith alone." This scipture clearly opposes that concept. We must act on our faith and obey God's commands, or our faith is in vain. (Jn. 12:42-43)

The demons believe in God. Obviously. They are demons. If they don't believe in God, they don't believe in themselves. But do they have faith in God? Do they depend on Him? Do they look to Him for salvation?.

Exactly! This is another great scripture showing us that we must act on our faith with works of obedience. (James 2:19)

 

[western kentucky]

WKU,

Sorry. However, what I was saying has nothing to do with whether or not scripture is inspired:


Then a problem arises... No one is going to obey all of God's commands. So if you MUST obey all of God's commands to be saved, none of us will, then none of us would be saved. Good thing Ephesians 2:8 is crystal clear for us on what saves us.

If someone MUST obey all of God's commands to be saved, then none of us are saved BECAUSE all of us sin. No matter whether you are a Hookian, Methodist, Church of Christer, or Catholic, you can agree with this statement.

I agree with what Aggie has been saying. There is an obvious difference between sinning (relying on God's grace) and obeying God's commands. We all sin! There is no doubt about it! This is why we must rely on God's grace, because we have failed in our task, and we rely on God's mercy to be saved (Eph. 2:8). Does this idea "exempt" us from obeying God's commands. Which command can we take out? What point are you trying to get at?

 

[Philo]

2 Cor 3:17 says "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

James speaks of the perfect Law of Liberty in his writing, first saying in James 1:25 that "...One who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does."

In the next chapter, he defines the Law of Liberty: "If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.(James 2:8)" "So act and speak as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.(James 2:12)" The four verses in between explain why the law of liberty is earlier referred to as "perfect:" Its simple statutes reveal every sin (and, as the command is a positive, by definition reveal every good work).

Paul writes of our freedom through Christ's sacrifice in Galatians 5:1 "It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery." And later in the chapter, writes on what the consequences of our subjection to that yoke of slavery is: "You have been severed from Christ, you seeking to be justified by the law; You have fallen from grace. (Gal 5:4)"

Later in that same chapter, Paul agrees with James: "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. (Gal 5:13, 14)"

Though we have freedom from the law in Christ, we will follow Christ's law if we truly have a saving faith. Why? Paul answers this question with in a pair of my favorite verses: "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Cor 5:14, 15)"

If there is no benefit to following the law, then why follow any law? Well, we aren't here for our own benefit, are we? We are here to love God, to glorify God, to be God's representatives as the Body of Christ here on earth.

There is one law spoken of in the NT that would should obey (and, from my point of view, will and must obey if we truly have a saving faith). Galatians 6:2 speaks of it: "Bear one another's burden, and thereby fulfil the Law of Christ." But, of course, this isn't the entirity of the law of Christ...

John wrote to the chosen lady in 2 John 1: "Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it." Some might contend that "love" is actually following a set of commandments, and that's how we know what love is. I think it's the other way around... That love dictates our actions, and that's how we know what his commandments are.

The above verses seem clear that we are free from law, under liberty, and saved by grace. If we were saved by our following a set of commandments, then grace is no longer grace (Rom 11:6). If we are saved by the grace of God, through Christ's sacrifice, then what we do or do not do is irrelevant. However, anyone who possesses a saving faith will reflect God in his everyday life (James 2:17).

If my sin is one of ignorance, then I am willing to accept that. I'm determined to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. The purity and simplicity of the Gospel is salvation through the grace of God. Straying from that is dangerous territory... "Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. (1 Cor 8:1)"

Maybe I'm puffed up and don't know it. I hope not, because I believe that almost everyone participating in the discussion is saved by their faith and God's grace. I don't put myself above anyone. All I want is for those who bind themselves to be loosed, to live without fear born of punishment and live in the perfection of Love. (1 John 4:18)

Peace and Love And mad Campbellian Props,

Philodough

 

[Aaron11]

I agree with what Aggie has been saying. There is an obvious difference between sinning (relying on God's grace) and obeying God's commands. We all sin! There is no doubt about it! This is why we must rely on God's grace, because we have failed in our task, and we rely on God's mercy to be saved (Eph. 2:8). Does this idea "exempt" us from obeying God's commands. Which command can we take out? What point are you trying to get at?

I agree that we should obey God's commands. I don't think anyone should take out any of God's commands or ideas from the Bible. I think that when we love God, we will not try to side-step His commands. So, I think it shows the condition of someone's heart if he is trying to side-step a command.

My point earlier was supposed to be that, God gives us grace, not because we deserve it, but because He loves us. He gives that grace to whoever chooses grace. I agree that choosing that grace includes choosing to follow God instead of self. We agree more than it seems I guess.

 

[ischus]

Aaron, sorry to interrupt, but could you tell me a little about your view of inspiration? I noticed that some have commented on this and I was curious. Perhaps there is a post you could direct me to, or else just explain it briefly for me here. I am not asking so that I can refute your view... I probably won't even say anything about it- I just am wondering what is so different about you view is all.

Thanks.

 

[Aaron11]

I believe that some of the Bible was inspired word for word, such as "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.".

I believe that some of the Bible was inspired by a vision, such as the book of Revelation.

I believe that some of the Bible was inspired because it is an accurate documentation of events that God directed, such as the books Luke and Acts.

I believe that some of the Bible was inspired because it was an example of a man of God acting like God would have him act, such as Paul writing to the Colossians,
"Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings , always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God."

I do not think the entire Bible was inspired by God in the way that some do. Some believe it was mystically or dramatically revealed plenarily by God to man. I believe that the Bible is a good book with some plenary inspiration, some visionary inspiration, some thematic inspiration, and some indirect inspiration. I say that it is a good book because it teaches us so much about God and His wonderful character. When people say "inspiration" they may think of a very narrow term. Using the narrow definitions of the term, I would say that the Bible is not completely inspired. However, using the broadest definition of the word, I would agree that the Bible is inspired. However, that definition of "inspiration" would not be limited to the Bible. If Paul's relaying of greetings to the Colossians is "inspired", then other writings that aren't included in the Bible that fall under the same category would also be considered "inspired".

Anyway, I hope that helps you understand more of how I believe on the Bible. Thanks for asking.

 

[ischus]

Acuallly, that's what I believe too. I wish more people would study it logically instead of just give the classic definitions and views...

There is no disrespect or shame in admitting that the bible is not verb. plen. insp.

It is God's message to his people !!!! We should honor it and respect it above all other books, but we need to recognize the humanness in it as well.

 

[Aaron11]

Good to hear from someone who sees it similarly. Have an awesome day.

 

[aggie03]

I agree that we should obey God's commands. I don't think anyone should take out any of God's commands or ideas from the Bible. I think that when we love God, we will not try to side-step His commands. So, I think it shows the condition of someone's heart if he is trying to side-step a command.

My point earlier was supposed to be that, God gives us grace, not because we deserve it, but because He loves us. He gives that grace to whoever chooses grace. I agree that choosing that grace includes choosing to follow God instead of self. We agree more than it seems I guess.

I've noticed that we have a great deal in common but there also seem to be a number of places where we dsiagree as well.

In stating that we shouldn't side-step God's commands, would you then say that baptism is necessary to be saved? And what do you mean by choosing grace? Could you explain that a little more for me?

 

[Aaron11]

I've noticed that we have a great deal in common but there also seem to be a number of places where we dsiagree as well.

In stating that we shouldn't side-step God's commands, would you then say that baptism is necessary to be saved? And what do you mean by choosing grace? Could you explain that a little more for me?

I wouldn't say that baptism is necessary for anyone recieving salvation. I wouldn't say this because God hasn't said this. I don't know how God will judge each individual person. To say that baptism is absolutely necessary for our salvation, we are pronouncing judgement on all of those who have not been baptized (including kids, people who never knew, people who are incapable of understanding), and I am not prepared to pronounce that judgement. I will not limit God's grace like that.

Choosing grace is choosing Jesus Christ. The cliche goes something like, "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior," or something like that. I like how Paul put it in Galatians, something like, "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." That is what choosing Jesus/Grace is like. It is choosing to die to our own pride, desires, lusts, wishes, and conforming to the perfect will of Jesus Christ and our Father. This is what produces obedience.

I hope that explains some of my thoughts.

 

[Aaron11]

In stating that we shouldn't side-step God's commands, would you then say that baptism is necessary to be saved?

Another note concerning this quote:

I do not think that everyone who hasn't been baptized is side-stepping God's command.

 

[Aaron11]

That is what choosing Jesus/Grace is like. It is choosing to die to our own pride, desires, lusts, wishes, and conforming to the perfect will of Jesus Christ and our Father. This is what produces obedience.

Notice, I did not say "Perfectly conforming to the will of Jesus Christ and our Father." Instead I said "Conforming to the perfect will of Jesus Christ and out Father." See the difference? See the difference.

 

[aggie03]

I wouldn't say that baptism is necessary for anyone recieving salvation. I wouldn't say this because God hasn't said this. I don't know how God will judge each individual person. To say that baptism is absolutely necessary for our salvation, we are pronouncing judgement on all of those who have not been baptized (including kids, people who never knew, people who are incapable of understanding), and I am not prepared to pronounce that judgement. I will not limit God's grace like that.

Choosing grace is choosing Jesus Christ. The cliche goes something like, "Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior," or something like that. I like how Paul put it in Galatians, something like, "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." That is what choosing Jesus/Grace is like. It is choosing to die to our own pride, desires, lusts, wishes, and conforming to the perfect will of Jesus Christ and our Father. This is what produces obedience.

I hope that explains some of my thoughts.

Yup

I hope you don't mind if I ask another question; I have some comments/thoughts I'd like to share, but not really the time right now to type them out.

How do we "die to our own pride, desires, lusts wishes"? Could you give me a verse or two with your thoughts if you don't mind?

 

[cbk]

1 Cor 15:1-4

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

When you believe the gospel you are saved! That is good news. This scripture is a brilliant example of what the gospel is.

If you believe this you are saved. When you are saved, there will be action according to James. It is a natural outflow, but not a prerequisite.

And, a little further in verse 29-30

"Now IF there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? IF THE DEAD ARE NOT RAISED at all, WHY are people baptized for them?"

 

[cbk]

The way I see it, many here believe that we need to die to sin and become united with Christ. How this is successfully accomplished is the debate.

Hopefully, we all agree that we had FIRST bound ourselves to sin and death. This was our first marriage and, in the eyes of God, is binding until either we die OR sin dies. When a death occurs, the covenant is broken.

Now, I am one who believes that, through God's Will, we can escape our legally binding covenant to sin by dying through baptism of water. This allows us to rise in newness of life (ie, reborn). We are then legally free to enter a covenant relationship with Christ. This, IMO, is the standard that Christ set forth after his resurrection for us to comply with.

Others, on the other hand, believe that this breakage from the covenant of sin takes place with their declaration (or writ) of divorce. But, in the eyes of God, the DEATH of either you or sin must take place to break the covenant; 'I divorce you' isn't enough', hence, Paul's haste and everyone elses haste to be baptized by water. Now, since sin will be around to the day of judgement, it stands to reason that you have a 99.9999999% chance of experiencing the first death before sin does; therefore, you must die first. The choice is two-fold... Die through water baptism (as scriptures decree) or wait until your heart stops beating. The former allows you to be united with Christ, the latter allows you to be judged with your spouse, sin.

 

[Aaron11]

Yup

I hope you don't mind if I ask another question; I have some comments/thoughts I'd like to share, but not really the time right now to type them out.

How do we "die to our own pride, desires, lusts wishes"? Could you give me a verse or two with your thoughts if you don't mind?

I will just give you some biblical examples of people dying to their own pride, desires, lusts, and wishes:

Ultimate example: Jesus going to the cross. ("Not my will, but thy will be done")

Another example: Paul wishing to live because he wanted to serve Christ, even though he wanted to die to go to heaven.

Another example: The widow who gave the mite. It goes against human nature and our natural lusts to give away everything we have.

An example from my life: When I saw a hitchhiker who wanted a ride to a town an hour north. I didn't want to, because I didn't have too much money in my bank account to pay for gas, but I did because that's what Jesus would have done.

Another example from my life: When I had to stand up to my teacher and say that I believe in God, not atheism. I didn't want to do that, but I felt it needed and what would please God.

I hope these show good examples of how to die to yourself and live through Christ. There are millions of examples, but these are just a few that show the point.

P.S. Don't think that I think I am a super Christian because I told of some good things I have done. I have done much more wrong than I have done right.