Is baptism necessary to be saved?

jessedance said:

there is a verse in the bible that says 'he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved' People say this means you have to be baptised to be saved. It sounds good , but a big problem is that 99 percent of all christians aren't baptised. so I find it hard to beleive god would reject 99percent ofthe people that accept jesus as the son of god because they didn't get baptised.the bible says to be baptised in the name of Jesus almost no christian does this, well very few. the vast majority use scripture that isnt the word of god, math 28:19 to get around this commandment of god. (whatsoever you do in oword or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus) why don't peoople want to be baptised in Jesus name? because that's too fanatical they think. i think thats the reasson anywya.

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Are you saying that if I am not baptised by using the words, Jesus Christ, then I am not saved???

You gotta be jesus onlying me

congratualtions Newlamb

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Crusader said:

congratualtions Newlamb

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

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Thanks, Crusader! I had the blood and the Spirit - Now I've got the water!

newlamb said:

While I do not believe that it is necessary to be baptised to be saved (witness the thief on the cross), I do believe that Christians who have Jesus as their savior SHOULD be baptised as a public witness to their salvation. Why would a Christian not want to be baptised?

p.s. I was baptised by immersion tonight! I had been sprinkled as an infant, but the church I joined last Sunday required dunking so I was happily dunked tonight! I am very happy!

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AMEN!

I am so glad to hear you got baptized , but if a church tells you that you are not saved until you get baptized is another water down added gospel.

Praise God you made Christ your personal Lord before any baptism.

Yes Christ saves you not the water.

The blood of Jesus washes your sins away , not water.

Witness and tell other it is Christ that saves not water.


God Bless

Hi there all

I have not had time to read through all the posts of this VERY long thread, so if I repeat something that someone else has already said, please forgive me.

I am quite sure that someone would by now have quoted Romans 6 concerning the death and resurrection that occurs with baptism. However I do believe that one should read Romans 6 in the context of the previous 3 chapters. The baptism issue was solved for me one day when I got this revelation in Romans 4 which sets the scene for Romans 6:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

Similarly I believe that we are justified by faith and by faith alone. However we receive baptism as a seal of the righteousness that we already have. It is a public proclamation of an inward reality. (Galatians 3:23-27).

Bless You all

I kinda tend to think baptism came to be mandatory along with the other sacraments of the early church in order to gain power over people from cradle to grave.

After all, if you were excommunicated.......you couldn't get married, your kids would go to hell because you couldn't get them baptized, you couldn't even die properly because you wouldn't get the last rites.

You were toast. That gave the early church leaders the power they craved.

(Still works today to hold power over certain groups.)

crusader; No, I am saying that if your not baptised in Jesus name then your not baptised according to scritpure. math. 28;19 'baptise in the name ofthe father son and holy ghost' is not the word of god, it was put in the bible after the council of nicea to support the trinity. so being baptised in the name ofthe father, son and holy ghost is meaningless and therefore the same as if you weren't baptised. I do not believe that you are unsaved because you are baptised incorrectly. i believe baptism to be a ceremony, an important one. but if your understanding takes you away from being baptised in jesus name, and you believe in jesus andstay faithfull till the end then I believe you will be saved, however, I do not think anyone who is not baptised in Jesus name will make the rapture, and be the bride of christ, christians without the baptism of the holy spirit, and without being baptised in Jesus name,(one day soon i believe they will be synonymous) will have a lower status in the after life, they will be wedding guests at the marriage feast of the lamb . only the bride of christ will marry jesus (spiritually)

Rocinante said:

I kinda tend to think baptism came to be mandatory along with the other sacraments of the early church in order to gain power over people from cradle to grave.

After all, if you were excommunicated.......you couldn't get married, your kids would go to hell because you couldn't get them baptized, you couldn't even die properly because you wouldn't get the last rites.

You were toast. That gave the early church leaders the power they craved.

(Still works today to hold power over certain groups.)

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Is our battles over groups or over spiritual things??

Eph:6:11: Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph:6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.



God Bless

newlamb ; ive been dunked twice. once in 1973 in the name ofthe father son and holy ghost, and the second time in 1990 in jesus name. the second time wasthe best.

jessedance said:

newlamb ; ive been dunked twice. once in 1973 in the name ofthe father son and holy ghost, and the second time in 1990 in jesus name. the second time wasthe best.

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To be honest, jessedance, I was so excited that I don't remember a word! In the car coming home afterward I felt bathed in a wonderful warmth - best I've felt in years! Interesting thought though - I'll check it out!

rocinante - I can't believe that I agree with most of what you said. Has h*ll frozen over?

jessedance;

I do not believe that you are unsaved because you are baptised incorrectly.

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I am glad to hear that because I thought you said;

there

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is a verse in the bible that says 'he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved' People say this means you have to be baptised to be saved. It sounds good , but a big problem is that 99 percent of all Christians aren't baptised.

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had to slip that in

Jesse, you said something that I find unbelievable and I would love to see the evidence of this statement;

math. 28;19 'baptise in the name of the father son and holy ghost' is not the word of god, it was put in the bible after the council of nicea to support the trinity.

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I doubt this. Can you prove it. I am well aware of this time period historically. Just send me a link.

jessedance;

I am saying that if your not baptised in Jesus name then your not baptised according to scripture.

And

so being baptised in the name of the father, son and holy ghost is meaningless and therefore the same as if you weren't baptised.

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With your first statement I have no argument with. Scripturally, we are to baptise in the name given among men, there is no other name that brings salvation than the name of Jesus Christ.

But

Your second statement is going to far. The reason most people get baptised is because they have been born again by the spirit and are completing the prosses and Jesus is at the centre of all of that, so I would assume that is in his name, wouldn’t you, considering it is all in his name, it certainly isn’t in my own name, if you get what I mean?

This also makes your next statement a little suss.

I believe baptism to be a ceremony, an important one. but if your understanding takes you away from being baptised in Jesus name, and you believe in Jesus and stay faithful till the end then I believe you will be saved, however, I do not think anyone who is not baptised in Jesus name will make the rapture, and be the bride of Christ, Christians without the baptism of the holy spirit, and without being baptised in Jesus name,(one day soon I believe they will be synonymous) will have a lower status in the after life, they will be wedding guests at the marriage feast of the lamb . only the bride of Christ will marry Jesus (spiritually)

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Jesse , these are huge statements, you have just entered another half dozen subjects.

Lets stick to this one on baptism in Jesus name.

See, I believe we are to baptise in Jesus name and I was also baptised in Jesus name.

I believe there is no way in the world the Nicean Council had anything what so ever to do with changing the wording of scripture in any book.

However, what I do believe is that the father and the son and the holy ghost are mentioned from beginning to end of the new testament and there is no escaping that.

So, why did Jesus tell his disciples to baptise in “the name” of the father and the son and the holy ghost.

Paul says “Jesus is the fullness of the godhead dwelling bodily”.

So, I wonder if that means that within Jesus is the fullness of the godhead in the sense that he was the son of man , filled with the holy ghost and the father was within him as the father is in us all and through all because he is the eternal omnipresent spirit that we all pray to and draw life from.

Jesus said, “pray to the father in my name through the holy ghost” (or something like that)

So, I wonder if Jesus was referring to himself when he said , baptise in the “name” of the father and the son and the holy ghost because in him was the fullness of the godhead.

that’s why there is no other name under heaven whereby men will be saved.

Food for thought

If anyone thinks I am wrong, then could they explain what Paul meant by Jesus being the fullness of the “godhead” dwelling bodily?

Or

maybe why there are about 8 accounts of baptisms in scripture and every time it was in the name of Jesus Christ or Jesus or the lord. Never once is someone baptised using the words “father,son,holy ghost” and are they one name or three names?

So, it isn’t that I don’t see your point Jesse, although, scripture is in the eye of the beholder most of the time, for example, those things you spoke off, concerning baptism determining weather your going to be ruptured or not, then I got to wonder from what view your seeing scripture because that is a first for me mate

NewLamb said:

rocinante - I can't believe that I agree with most of what you said. Has h*ll frozen over?

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Roz sez:

LOL! Well, I won't debate baptism anyhow, because I feel there are so many more important issues to talk about......life and death issues that need to be addressed right now.

Baptism is a luxury. A feel-good thing in a time of great crisis must be set aside until we can feel good again. The current gathering of the powers of evil in America is a thing that does not allow me to waste time in meaningless bickering about this old sacrament.

Rocinante said:

NewLamb said:

Baptism is a luxury. A feel-good thing in a time of great crisis must be set aside until we can feel good again. The current gathering of the powers of evil in America is a thing that does not allow me to waste time in meaningless bickering about this old sacrament.

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Wow - once again I agree with you, especially about the phrase in red. Unfortunately, I doubt that we agree who the powers of evil in America are! And I love that old sacrament!

Well, you're a Conservative and I'm a Liberal, so you think I'm the problem and I think Bush and his class warfare are the problem.

That's just the way it is, always has been, always will be.

En Garde, knave!

wonder111 said:

i know alot of people think its unnecessary because the thief that died on the cross was not baptized, and Jesus said they would be living in paradise together. I personally don't believe it's necessary. I feel it's symbolic of salvation but not salvation in itself

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Comments regarding the "thief" on the cross:

1) Jesus had authority to forgive sins while on earth. That was one of the signs of the messiah. (See Luke 5:24 below)

"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."

2) The Old Covenent was still in effect for the thief. The New Covenent made in the blood of Christ did not come into effect until he died and rose again. See Hebrews 9:15-18 below:

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a NEW Covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--NOW THAT HE HAS DIED as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the DEATH of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; IT NEVER TAKES EFFECT WHILE THE ONE WHO MADE IT IS LIVING. This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood."

The New Covenent commands were given by Jesus AFTER he appeared to his disciples as the risen Lord. Its was then he instituded baptism in his "name" representing the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" as the way to make disciples as in Matthew 28:19-20.

Matthew 28:18-20
"Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Thus the theif was not under the "new covenant" when he died and didn't have the command to be baptised in the name of Jesus. Thus he need not obey it.

3) The only baptism that the thief would have had the opportunity to hear of and been commanded to do was John's baptism of repentance.

"All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John."

(Since we don't know when the thief was arrested and even when he came to belive in Jesus we don't know if he had John's baptism. IF he had heard about this we can only speculate and its not worth arguing as its not mentioned in the bible.)

What is worth noting is that the thief somehow came to believe Jesus was innocent, and was going to his heavenly kingdom. From this its possible to say the thief must have heard about Jesus in order that he would believe these things about him. Consider this verse:

Luke 23:40-42
"But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

So I hope that clears up this poor 'theif' and why he wasn't even commanded to be baptized in the Name of Jesus since he was still under the OlD Covenant.

More to come...there is so much more to say...in regards to "saving faith" I hope you'll stay tuned.

----------------------------------------
~A Workman for the Lord

crusader;

Your second statement is going to far. The reason most people get baptised is because they have been born again by the spirit and are completing the prosses and Jesus is at the centre of all of that, so I would assume that is in his name, wouldn’t you, considering it is all in his name, it certainly isn’t in my own name, if you get what I mean?

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I get what you mean, I just think that the main reason people refuse to get baptised in Jesus name is because they don't want to get closer to god than they are. If i say' I baptise you in the name of god ' thats no good either. its gotta be Jesus name, Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. ' baptism is a deed. you gotta say the name otherwise it don't count. thats my opinion.

I believe there is no way in the world the Nicean Council had anything what so ever to do with changing the wording of scripture in any book.

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There is historical evedince that they did. in fact there is a lot of evedince. just go to web sites devoted to math 28:19 for detailed evedince. the main evedince is the writtings of Eusebius, a church historian and a signer of the nicene creed. he quoted math. 28:19 about 17 times before the council of nicea without 'father son and holy ghost.

Eusebius quoted matthew 28:19 18 times this way in books he wrote, "‘Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.’" after the council of nicea he quoted matthew 28:19 3 times in books he wrote with "father son and holy ghost." there is more evedince too much to list here. but even if the traditional form of math 28:19 is corrrect we are still to baptise in a name, not in titles. and that name is Jesus.

Paul says "Jesus is the fullness of the godhead dwelling bodily".

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collossians 2:9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, ASV

Jesus said, "pray to the father in my name through the holy ghost" (or something like that)

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Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, ' that verse?

So, it isn’t that I don’t see your point Jesse, although, scripture is in the eye of the beholder most of the time, for example, those things you spoke off, concerning baptism determining weather your going to be ruptured or not, then I got to wonder from what view your seeing scripture because that is a first for me mate"

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In brief, the reason one has to be baptised in Jesus name to make the rapture is this. the bride of christ will be a fully matured body of believers all speaking the same things with the same doctrine, the bride of christ will come out of all the churchs, (the manchild in rev is the same thing just a different analogy). all pentecostal saints will be raptured but many who are pentecostal today will refuse to come out of the church into the bride of christ and thus loose the indwelling of the holy spirit. also the doctrine of the bride of christ will be correct, and the correct doctrine as far as baptism is is that it must be in Jesus name. also , why would Jesus want to marry someone who refuses to take his name? those that refuse to take Jesus name will wind up as wedding guests after they go through the tribulation and get marytered. those that stay pentecostal, and get baptised in jesus name and join the bride of christ manchild company will be his bride. in a nut shell thats it.

evangelist said:

I hope this has answered your questions and if not please let me know.I don`t know everything but I have alot of experiences in the walk with God personally and I have tried out many religions including being AN CATHOLIC.

God Bless

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I appreciate the long response that you gave me, evangelist I agree with many of the things that you've said, but I think maybe I didn't make my question clear the first time I asked it.

You said in a previous post that I am supposed to ask for the blood of Jesus. Can you show me a place in the Scriptures where it says specifically that I am to ask for Christ's blood?

evangelist said:

AMEN!I am so glad to hear you got baptized , but if a church tells you that you are not saved until you get baptized is another water down added gospel.

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You've talked like this before, evangelist - so I just want to remind you of the gravity of our situation. You have basically said that we are discussing two different gospels, which in the context of Galatians chapter 1 poses a problem and sets a dividing line:

Galatians 1:8 ASV

But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

Anathema, as best as it can be rendered into English, means to be accursed or excommunicated. If as you have said, and I believe that you are right, that we are dealing with two different gospels, then one is wrong and the other is right. The one that is wrong is in a great deal of trouble

This is why what we talk about here is so important.

Praise God you made Christ your personal Lord before any baptism.

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Well, technically she was baptized first as an infant . (NOTE: I do NOT agree with infant baptism).

Yes Christ saves you not the water

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I don't think that I have ever said that water, in and of itself, saves you. If anyone else on here has, then I don't agree with them . The simple fact that water does not save you by itself in no way negates the necessity for baptism, because baptism is part of how we are saved (1 Peter 3:21).

In fact, since I've mentioned it, evangelist, I would really like to hear what you think this verse means. I believe that you use the KJV so that's the version I'll post the quote in:

1 Peter 3:21-22 KJV

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The blood of Jesus washes your sins away , not water.

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I realize that you haven't had time to respond to my last post - but this comment that you've made brings to point the questions that I've asked you so far. How do you believe that you come in contact with the blood of Christ? When did Christ shed his blood? It was at His death, right? Can you find any place in the Scriptures where it talks about us being connected to the death of Christ? Can you find any place in the Scriptures where it talks about praying to receive the blood of Jesus?

Witness and tell other it is Christ that saves not water.

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In light of your first comment, and it's relationship to Galatians 1, I think that our friend should join our conversation. If we are dealing with the prospect of being anathema, then we need to make absolutely sure that the gospel we preach is the gospel that Paul preached - in deed the gospel that is preached throughout the New Testament.

I'm not trying to scare anyone - in fact I wasn't even the one who brought this up, but since it has been mentioned we must be sure to be all the more diligent and truthful in our reading and understanding of the Scriptures - we must put away pride and humbly sumbit to the whole counsel of God's word. If I am wrong, I want to change. I want to be right with God more than I want to be right in this discussion. My constant prayer and wish is that we would all feel the same way (and I'm sure that a great many of us do )

With all that having been said, I'm going to bed . My son has just fallen asleep, so I need to rest while I can before he wakes up again. Good night, or morning depending on where you're at, and I look forward to talking with you all tomorrow.

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I believe that this is a very common mistake made by christians promoting baptism is necessary to be saved. Consider what I have already said about Abraham and the promise in a previous post. It is by faith that we are saved.

How do we interpret this scripture and many other like it? When the Bible talks about baptism we must remember that there are many kinds of baptism in scripture:

1. John's baptism in water (Matthew 3, Mark 1)
2. Christ's baptism in water (John 3:22, 4:1,2)
3. Baptism in suffering (Luke 12:50)
4. Baptism in the cloud and the sea (1 Cor 12:13)
5. Christian baptism in water (There are so many Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16)
6. Baptism into Christ and into His body (Rom 6:3-7, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12)
7. Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)

There are 3 baptisms that are relevant to believers:

1. Baptism into Christ or into His body (no 6). This is called one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 because it is the only baptism that saves the soul and brings into the body of Christ. This happens with repentance and is a righteousness that comes by faith (Rom 1:17);

2. Baptism in water after one is saved (no 5)

3. Spirit baptism (no 7 above)

Now let's return to 1 Peter 3:21:

The like figure of baptism in water also saves us. How does it save us? It it the water that saves or the thing that it is a figure of? It was not the water that saved the 8 persons of v 20. It was the ark that saved them from drowning in the flood. So baptism in water does not save the soul, but faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that which baptism is a figure of saves (Rom 6:3-5,1 Cor 15:1-4, Col 1:20-22).

A mere figure can have no power to save, but the reality of the figure can. Peter, lest some should trust in water baptism to save the soul, makes it very clear that baptism does not save one from the filth or moral depravity of the flesh. He shows it to be only the answer of a good conscience toward God, one that has been made clean by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v21). It is clear here that at baptism the consciense is already supposed to be good and clean and baptism merely answers to it. Water baptism testifies figuritively of the salvation that comes through faith (Rom 1:16,17, 3:24,25, 10:9-10)

noiralc said:

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I believe that this is a very common mistake made by christians promoting baptism is necessary to be saved. Consider what I have already said about Abraham and the promise in a previous post. It is by faith that we are saved.

How do we interpret this scripture and many other like it? When the Bible talks about baptism we must remember that there are many kinds of baptism in scripture:

1. John's baptism in water (Matthew 3, Mark 1)
2. Christ's baptism in water (John 3:22, 4:1,2)
3. Baptism in suffering (Luke 12:50)
4. Baptism in the cloud and the sea (1 Cor 12:13)
5. Christian baptism in water (There are so many Matt. 28:19, Mark 16:16)
6. Baptism into Christ and into His body (Rom 6:3-7, 1 Cor 12:13, Gal 3:27, Col 2:12)
7. Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5)

There are 3 baptisms that are relevant to believers:

1. Baptism into Christ or into His body (no 6). This is called one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 because it is the only baptism that saves the soul and brings into the body of Christ. This happens with repentance and is a righteousness that comes by faith (Rom 1:17);

2. Baptism in water after one is saved (no 5)

3. Spirit baptism (no 7 above)

Now let's return to 1 Peter 3:21:

The like figure of baptism in water also saves us. How does it save us? It it the water that saves or the thing that it is a figure of? It was not the water that saved the 8 persons of v 20. It was the ark that saved them from drowning in the flood. So baptism in water does not save the soul, but faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that which baptism is a figure of saves (Rom 6:3-5,1 Cor 15:1-4, Col 1:20-22).

A mere figure can have no power to save, but the reality of the figure can. Peter, lest some should trust in water baptism to save the soul, makes it very clear that baptism does not save one from the filth or moral depravity of the flesh. He shows it to be only the answer of a good conscience toward God, one that has been made clean by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ (v21). It is clear here that at baptism the consciense is already supposed to be good and clean and baptism merely answers to it. Water baptism testifies figuritively of the salvation that comes through faith (Rom 1:16,17, 3:24,25, 10:9-10)

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Just for the sake of keeping it simple, I would like to ask you about "faith?" You say that we are saved by "faith," and I completely agree with you (John 3:16). But what do you mean by that? Is the act of believing enough to be saved, or does the word "faith" imply action. For instance, what about repentance or confession? I would like to keep the discussions short b/c my time is very limited on here.