Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Andyman_1970]

This is a long thread and I don’t know if this has been brought up (I wasn’t about to read 120+ pages)

Where did this whole idea of Baptism come from? Was this something John the Baptist thought up and decided to implement and then was continued by the early followers of Jesus?

Some background

Baptism actually originated in the Old Testament times. In Leviticus 8 the sons of Aaron are ceremonially “washed” before they can become priests. Some of the rabbinical writings of the Talmud (Oral Torah) indicate that Adam may have “washed” in a stream after being evicted from the Garden as a sign that he was renewing his faith towards God.

Our Christian Baptism comes from a Jewish ceremony called Mikveh. This was/is the ritual washing that a woman would perform after she had her monthly cycle. This was also one of the three ceremonies a Gentile had to perform before he was converted to Judaism. First he was circumcised, then he would perform the mikvah then he would offer a sacrifice.

The ritual bath water could not be in a “tub” or something that could be disconnected from the building or ground and had to contain at least 200 gallons of rainwater that has not touched anything “unclean”.

This was the baptism John the Baptist preached. Why did the Jews have such a hard time with what he preached? Because that was and act that only Gentiles had to do. John though is telling them that the meaning behind the mikvah, repentance, is necessary.

So my question to the “Baptism saves” crowd is:

If the act of being immersed saves, then it would stand to reason that there is something “special” about the baptismal waters, correct?

Most would say “no there is nothing special about the water”, ok fine. If there is nothing special about the water then how can it save?

Next question: how many “baptism saves” people were baptized in a modern baptismal?

According to how John the Baptist baptized and the early church (who were mostly Jews), and how Jesus was baptized your baptism (if you believe it saves) is actually not Biblical and in effect “didn’t count”. Was it in a ritual mikvah like the Scriptures tell us John did and Jesus did?

Through the Blood of Jesus we have been set free from the bondage from the Law. IMO those who advocate that baptism saves are actually going back to the Law, but they are not actually adhering to it (ironically).

Just like for the Gentile in the ancient near east who wanted to worship the God of the Jews, baptism is a symbolic act of putting our old pagan idols and actions behind us and being reborn to live with the Creator of the Universe.

 

[cbk]

to read 120+ pages)

Where did this whole idea of Baptism come from? Was this something John the Baptist thought up and decided to implement and then was continued by the early followers of Jesus?

Some background

Baptism actually originated in the Old Testament times. In Leviticus 8 the sons of Aaron are ceremonially “washed” before they can become priests. Some of the rabbinical writings of the Talmud (Oral Torah) indicate that Adam may have “washed” in a stream after being evicted from the Garden as a sign that he was renewing his faith towards God.

Our Christian Baptism comes from a Jewish ceremony called Mikveh. This was/is the ritual washing that a woman would perform after she had her monthly cycle. This was also one of the three ceremonies a Gentile had to perform before he was converted to Judaism. First he was circumcised, then he would perform the mikvah then he would offer a sacrifice.

The ritual bath water could not be in a “tub” or something that could be disconnected from the building or ground and had to contain at least 200 gallons of rainwater that has not touched anything “unclean”.

This was the baptism John the Baptist preached. Why did the Jews have such a hard time with what he preached? Because that was and act that only Gentiles had to do. John though is telling them that the meaning behind the mikvah, repentance, is necessary.

So my question to the “Baptism saves” crowd is:

If the act of being immersed saves, then it would stand to reason that there is something “special” about the baptismal waters, correct?

Most would say “no there is nothing special about the water”, ok fine. If there is nothing special about the water then how can it save?

Next question: how many “baptism saves” people were baptized in a modern baptismal?

According to how John the Baptist baptized and the early church (who were mostly Jews), and how Jesus was baptized your baptism (if you believe it saves) is actually not Biblical and in effect “didn’t count”. Was it in a ritual mikvah like the Scriptures tell us John did and Jesus did?

Through the Blood of Jesus we have been set free from the bondage from the Law. IMO those who advocate that baptism saves are actually going back to the Law, but they are not actually adhering to it (ironically).

Just like for the Gentile in the ancient near east who wanted to worship the God of the Jews, baptism is a symbolic act of putting our old pagan idols and actions behind us and being reborn to live with the Creator of the Universe.

What you must realize from the 'baptism' crowd is the following.

What you perceive as the continuations of 'past' (ie, prior to Christ) rituals that are being used today as 'symbolisms' are, in fact, to many of us a complete 180 degree turn.

You see the water purification of today as symbolisms of the realities of the past.

We see the water purification of todays as the REALITIES of the foreshadowing symbolisms of the past.

For instance, we all understand the the bloody sacrifices of yesteryear were but mere foreshadowings of the reality of the bloody sacrifice of Christ Jesus. We all understand that the yearly celebration of the First Passover was but the mere foreshadowing of the reality of the NEW Passover that we shall experience in regards to the judgement, where Christ's blood will protect us. We all understand that the yearly breaking of bread during the Feast of the Old Passover was but the mere foreshadowing of the reality of the communial breaking of bread that Christ and his disciples have implemented for the church.

So, why is it that now, in regards to the water purifications of the past (ie, prior to Christ), do you not see these as mere FORESHADOWINGS of the reality of the water baptism that Christ has commanded to those of today?

It is fantastic that you see the similarities between the water purification of today and the water purification of the past! Therefore, ask and answer as to whether or not the water purification of the past was the reality or the foreshadowing.... I think scripture clearly shows that that of the past was but a shadow of the reality of today.

In regards to water not being special, I say the following.... In and of itself, water is of no value to the soul, however, it is the Word and Will of God that gives value to many things. For instance, of what value would Christ's death and resurrection be to any of us IF, by the Grace, Word, and Will of the Father, Christ's blood COULD NOT be applied to atone for OUR sins?? His blood would be meaningless!! It would have NO value to any of us IF it were not the WILL of God for it to do so.

Therefore, water by itself is of NO spiritual value to us UNLESS God makes it so.

 

[evangelist]

Andyman_1970

I think alot of people is trying to mix religion with salvation and religion is always tryimg to earn and do God job, trying to get god to love them by getting religious work brownie point.

people has put religion in the water also and try to make it an salvation message which is really an added gospel which doesn`t belong to the new birth good news of Christ.

The people who believe in this ´getting wet ritual also don`t know for sure about their own salvation even after being wet.

If ysou ask them are they sure they are going to heaven , they are still waitng and hoping they pass all the test on judgement day , and get enough brownie points including the keep of the rule to get baptized by water.

what a shame.

they preach more water than Christ, but I teach Christ alone and the relationship with christ which guide us to love Him and do all we can do after we are Born again and saved by the blood of Jesus and trust in christ and the completed sacrifice on the cross praise God.

i like you post above how you explain about the ritual of the water baptism and where it all started from.

God Bless
Shalom

 

[Andyman_1970]

What you must realize from the 'baptism' crowd is the following.

What you perceive as the continuations of 'past' (ie, prior to Christ) rituals that are being used today as 'symbolisms' are, in fact, to many of us a complete 180 degree turn.

Those past rituals for the Gentile were infact symbolisms of what their life had done, turned away from their pagan idols and lifestyle and towards God (I think we in modern Christianity call that repenting).

You see the water purification of today as symbolisms of the realities of the past.

First water does not purify the follower of Jesus, only blood can do that Jesus' blood.

Second, you say symbolisms of the realities of the past, I don't understand what your asserting there (it is Friday and it has been a long week)

For instance, we all understand the the bloody sacrifices of yesteryear were but mere foreshadowings of the reality of the bloody sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

Those sacrafices were a picture of the Messiah's sacrafice. So those sacrafices were only foreshadowing and not really sacrafices at the time they were made? If that is what you are saying I disagree. Where people in Old Testament times "saved" to use our word for it?

So, why is it that now, in regards to the water purifications of the past (ie, prior to Christ), do you not see these as mere FORESHADOWINGS of the reality of the water baptism that Christ has commanded to those of today?

Therefore, ask and answer as to whether or not the water purification of the past was the reality or the foreshadowing.... I think scripture clearly shows that that of the past was but a shadow of the reality of today.

I think I touched on this above, the ritual baths that were used buy those wishing to convert to Judiasm we not only foreshadowing of what will come, but a statement that this person right now is rejecting their old life and desires to live in harmony with God.

I think we have two different interpretations of the Text. The New Testament and Jesus' teachings are not some 'poof' out of thin air God decides He wants to start something new. The New Testament is continuation and perfection of the Torah. I don't believe that those sacrafices made in the OT were just pictures or foreshadowing, they were sacrafices to the LORD that He wanted His people to make. Those sacrafices were not "complete" and had to be done over and over, but they were not "invalid".

Almost everything Jesus taught and is taught by the New Testament writers is grounded in "stuff" from the Old Testament. Why is that? Because this whole thing called Christianity is essentially the completion / perfection of Judiasm. The New Testament is essentially the Old Testament revealed.

For a Jew repentance was followed by a ritual bath, the bath is a symbol to God (just like circimsision) that the old goes in but the new comes out. Like circumsision (sp?) it is a symbol to the world that we belong to God.

Therefore, water by itself is of NO spiritual value to us UNLESS God makes it so.

So the water you baptize with is special if God makes it so?

So if that is the case, howcome we don't baptize the way John the Baptist did, or how Jesus was, or any believer in the 1st century? Today we certainly violate the mikvah "rules" with how we baptize today. If baptizm "does" something (saves) wouldn't we need to do it they way they (John) did it for it to be "valid"?

I'm not trying to be smart or anything.

It's been a long week, I hope some of that made sense.

 

[cbk]

Andyman, I am a little confused.... You are using examples of the Old Test. regarding Jews being purified, and then you state Gentiles?? What's up with this?

Were Aaron and the priests Gentiles??? Were the women, being washed, Gentiles???

Did God set standard INITIALLY with where and in what way one was SUPPOSED to be washed?? Initially??? Or was God's way just REDEFINED over the course of the many centuries between Moses and Christ?

Also, the fact of the matter regarding the Old Test purification is the following... It was commanded by God in many circumstances. Therefore, I ask the following... If Aaron and the priests decided that what they were doing was unnecessary, in their day, then what do you suppose would have happened to them if they decided to enter without being cleansed?? Nothing?

When God said NOT to touch the ark, what do you think would happen if someone did? I think scripture is clear. Obey the commands. Scriptures also state that many of the Old Ways were symbolic of what was to be YET, although they were symbolic, one was STILL REQUIRED to do so -- this, I speak, of the past rituals and sacrifices -- those things that foreshadow the reality of today.

To better qualify my previous statement regarding the value of water -- the Word says to be baptized with water... It does not say where and with what type (salt, freshwater), nor does it state where (church, creek, river, north sea), it says to be baptized.

To Evangelist, you are free to preach what the disciples did not. This is your choice; it does not, however, mean you are correct just because you believe you are correct. You have the scriptures to show you the proper way to preach to the unsaved. To not include water baptism, while the others DID, takes a certain amount of boldness, insight, or ignorance on your part.... I just pray it isn't the latter.

If it be boldness, then I question your correctness. If it be insight, then I question why those, who walked with Christ, who heard his DIRECT WORDS for the 30+ days he walked the earth before ascending into Heaven, and who preached the good news, DID NOT apply what you propose or preach the way you preach.... If it be ignorance, then what can I say?

 

[evangelist]

To Evangelist, you are free to preach what the disciples did not. This is your choice; it does not, however, mean you are correct just because you believe you are correct. You have the scriptures to show you the proper way to preach to the unsaved. To not include water baptism, while the others DID, takes a certain amount of boldness, insight, or ignorance on your part.... I just pray it isn't the latter.

If it be boldness, then I question your correctness. If it be insight, then I question why those, who walked with Christ, who heard his DIRECT WORDS for the 30+ days he walked the earth before ascending into Heaven, and who preached the good news, DID NOT apply what you propose or preach the way you preach.... If it be ignorance, then what can I say?

There is a gift that I think you really need and that is the gift of discernment.

I will open a new post on this subject and this might open you heart and give you a meek spirit to see the truth as the Holy Spirit see´s it and not wisdom of men theology and wisdom of self opinion and added interpretation to the scripture to made the bible what you want it to say.

You need spiritual guidance and the mind of Christ in al your getting.

Please take a look at this it might help your soul it is an SOS to you without the water or getting wet.

http://www.intouch.org/intouch/site...&p_id_from=36079899&p_current_date=02/15/2004

Listen to what Andyman_1970 is trying to explain to you and stop beating around the bush, try to open your heart and spirit to what we are telling you about the gospel of truth and see that you are adding another gospel to the good news of salvation.
I know you are not an mormon so be free in Christ, not water.

God Bless

 

[evangelist]

Hello Andyman_1970


You are doing an awesome job for the Kingdom of God , and I pray that cb will get a meek heart and God will have mercy on him to see the truth and don`t let him believe lies with all his heart .

i do know that some are chosen to know the truth and some are not chosen and maybe it is not cbk time to see and hear, but I hope in due season he will come to the gospel of truth so he can tell other the gospel of Christ and not a gopsel of water .

Keep rebuking the demons of religion from him and keep him dry and in the blood of Christ gospel.

i know the father ,Son and Holy Spirit and all the angel are on yourside so keep up the good work for our DADDY AMEN!

Cbk has a water down gospel.

God Bless you
Shalom

 

[Aaron11]

SO you think that nothing in the New Testament Scriptures, apart from where Jesus speaks, can be trusted?

No, I think they can be trusted... But I don't think they were word for word from God. I do not think they were inhuman in words. They were divine in concept and accurately portrayed, by my estimation. So I trust them.

 

[phylaax]

Eternal salvation is ONLY achieved by recognizing Jesus' resurrection. Baptism symbolizes a person's new life in Christ, their conversion, but is not the actual thing. Jeeze, people, read the Bible! When they refer to baptism in the New Testament, they mean a person's conversion and new life in Christ, not baptism in the literal sense. Christianity's primarily spiritual, not physical or mental, although it does work in those places. Baptism is a symbol, nothing more. That's my interpretation of the Bible- correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[phylaax]

Sorry.... what I said above I thought was going elsewhere! I don't know how it switched threads like that on me. Sorry!

 

[Andyman_1970]

But I don't think they were word for word from God.

The Hebrews believed the Torah (5 books of Moses) were given to them by God Himself on Mount Sinai. Jesus being a Hebrew would have beleived (duh He was God) and He taught that.

Anyway, I'll respond to CBK on Monday when I have time.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

 

[Aaron11]

The Hebrews believed the Torah (5 books of Moses) were given to them by God Himself on Mount Sinai. Jesus being a Hebrew would have beleived (duh He was God) and He taught that.

Anyway, I'll respond to CBK on Monday when I have time.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

I wasn't just talking about the Torah. I know that some of the Bible was word for word from God. For instance, "Saul Saul, why are you persecuting me," or something to that effect. Of course that is God. But how about, "Send my greetings to Tychicus," or something of that nature?

So, I do not believe the whole Bible to be word for word from God.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman, I am a little confused.... You are using examples of the Old Test. regarding Jews being purified, and then you state Gentiles?? What's up with this?

>I used examples from the OT to show that baptism is not a NT only phenomonon and that John the Baptist and Jesus were expounding on something that had it’s roots in the OT. I mention Gentiles because baptism (or in the Hebrew Mikvah) was part of the conversion of a Gentile to Judiasm (sound familiar). This baptism in addition to making the Gentile cerimonially “clean” was also a symbol of turning from their pagan idols and practices and turning towards God. This is also known in modern Christian circles as repentance.

This is exactly what John the Baptist preached, repent and be baptised. That’s why the Phaisee’s were so upset with John, why would a Jew need to be immersed like a Gentile to show he was now following God?

Question: does going under the water initiate the repentance? What is the "mechanism" for repentance?

Were Aaron and the priests Gentiles??? Were the women, being washed, Gentiles???

>No I did not assert that, sorry if I was not totally clear there.

Did God set standard INITIALLY with where and in what way one was SUPPOSED to be washed?? Initially??? Or was God's way just REDEFINED over the course of the many centuries between Moses and Christ?

>I don’t believe God’s “way” to be washed was changed over the centuries, I believe Jesus was baptised per the mikvah “regualtions” (he was a Jew and would have adhered to the Jewish traditions).

Also, the fact of the matter regarding the Old Test purification is the following... It was commanded by God in many circumstances. Therefore, I ask the following... If Aaron and the priests decided that what they were doing was unnecessary, in their day, then what do you suppose would have happened to them if they decided to enter without being cleansed?? Nothing??

>I agree the preists were required to be washed prior to coming into God’s presence. I believe there is a larger understanding here though. First, did Moses need to be washed before he was in God’s presence on Mt. Sinai? Did Elijah wash before he was in God’s presence in the wilderness?

Check out Isaiah 1:10-17, the Lord is saying how he hates the sacrafices of Judah. It’s interesting because they were observing all the “requirements” to give the sacrafice, washing included, but God still says He hates the sacrafice, why? He hate their sacrafice because their hearts are not right, they don’t have their faith in Him, their faith is in their religious actions. So the larger issue here is; is your heart right with God. Evedently in this passage in Isaiah you can “go through the motions” offer all the right sacrafices, observe all the right feasts and festivals (essentially being obeiendient) and God still hate it if you heart it not right. What does Jesus say the most important commandment is? “Love the LORD your God with ALL your heart, ALL your mind, and ALL your strength” (from Deut. 6:5 BTW). So the essence here is that if you don’t love God will all your life and your whole being, all the religious actions you do are meaningless to Him. If all those reliegous actions actually “did” something (like washing actually caused repentance) then it wouldn’t matter what the condition of your heart was, you could just go “do” something and you would be right with God. “Man looks at the outside, God looks at the heart.”

How does this relate to baptism? My point is, if your heart is not right if you have first not surrendered your whole life to the Messiah Jesus, then baptism is meaningless. If baptism can be rendered “useless” by an unrepenant heart, then how does baptism save, where is it's regenerational power?

When God said NOT to touch the ark, what do you think would happen if someone did? I think scripture is clear. Obey the commands. Scriptures also state that many of the Old Ways were symbolic of what was to be YET, although they were symbolic, one was STILL REQUIRED to do so -- this, I speak, of the past rituals and sacrifices -- those things that foreshadow the reality of today.

>You and I fundamentally disagree on this point. The passage in Hebrews 10:1 “The law is a shadow of the good things that are coming..”, notice the use of the word “is”, the law is, not the law “was”. Hebrews was written after Jesus’s completed work on the cross, so the law (present tense) is a shadow, not past tense “was” a shadow. Until Jesus’ work on the cross was finished those sacrafices still had to be made. Now I do believe that many of those sacrafices, etc were pictures of what the Messiah would do and free them from, but I do not believe that those things were “null and void” because the Messiah would come some day, God still commanded them to do them and for a reason.

Back to the priests, if they when through all the motions of cleaning and giving sacrafices but their heart was not right or they had not repented of something, what would have happened while they were in the Holy of Holies?

Back to Hebrews, notice in chapter 11 those in the OT who “by faith” were saved, notice how it does not say “by faith and adherance to the law”.

To better qualify my previous statement regarding the value of water -- the Word says to be baptized with water... It does not say where and with what type (salt, freshwater), nor does it state where (church, creek, river, north sea), it says to be baptized.

>By cultural and historic implication it does. If Jesus and John the Baptist were Torah observant Jews (which they were) then they would have followed the Jewish regulations regarding washing. Sometimes to get a better understanding of the Scriptures we would be wise to pick up a history book or look at the writings of some of the 1st century Jewish historians to get a better understanding of the Text. We gentiles tend to look at the Scriptures through Greek Western modes of thinking, but the bulk of the Scriptures were written by Jews with a Hebrew Eastern way of thinking.

To Evangelist, you are free to preach what the disciples did not. This is your choice; it does not, however, mean you are correct just because you believe you are correct. You have the scriptures to show you the proper way to preach to the unsaved. To not include water baptism, while the others DID, takes a certain amount of boldness, insight, or ignorance on your part.... I just pray it isn't the latter.

>I’ll stick my nose in here for a second. CBK you are free to preach what the disciples did not, that is your choice. Just because you think you are correct, does not mean you are correct. You and I could go back an fourth for days and days throwing scripture at each other that proves our points. You’re not going to change my mind, and I’m probably not going to change your mind.

I’ll say to add baptism to salvation is in effect adding the “law” to Jesus’ work on the cross. Just as you told Evangelist, it takes a certain boldness, insight or (with all due respect) ignorance on your part to “add” anything to what Jesus did.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Baptism and circumsision??

Here is some information as a proof that baptism is a covenant sign, and not essential to salvation.

In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to baptism it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. The extent of that relationship is still being debated. Nevertheless, Paul also says in Rom. 2:29, "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." As you can see, for the Christian, circumcision is of the heart. And because it is, we Christians are now included the Abrahamic covenant where before, we, the Gentiles, were not. "Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world," (Eph. 2:12, NASB).


In Gal. 3:8, Paul calls the promise of the Abrahamic covenant, the gospel. He says, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'All the nations shall be blessed in you, so then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.'". So, Paul calls the Abrahamic covenant, the gospel. The sign of this Abrahamic covenant was circumcision.

Here is the catch. Since the Abrahamic covenant is still valid (we are justified by faith -- Gal. 3:8), then is there a covenant sign for us today? I believe that baptism replaces the Old Testament covenant sign of circumcision because:

1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and

2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood, but in baptism no blood is shed. The covenant sign has changed now that the Law has been fulfilled in Christ.

Understanding that baptism is a covenant sign, you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration, of "heart-circumcision." It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 13:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).

 

[evangelist]

 

[aggie03]

Hello Aggie 03

Hello

I think you missunderstood the verse but I hope I can explain logically, but to explain in a spirituall manner would be better for me.

Well, I believe that I have a fairly decent understanding of what the verses we were discussing mean, what I didn't agree with was the way that you were using them. The conclusions that you were trying to draw using Romans 5:18-19 logically, and necessarily lead to universalism (everyone gets saved no matter what), and that's something that I just don't believe the Scriptures teach.

Yes the bible says all have sinned and short of the Glory of God.

I agree This is a very fundamental, and extremely important, understanding.

...and ask the blood of Jesus to wash them spiritual...

Can you find a place in the New Testament where we are commanded to ask, specifically, for the blood of Jesus to wash us? Can you find any example of this in the conversions that can be found in Acts? I'm really curious as to your answer, because while I haven't yet scoured the New Testament looking for this specific detail, I can't recall it being listed anywhere. If you know of a place where it is listed, I would greatly appreciate it

What I like so much about that scripture is that it is showing how simple it is to be righteous when we believe with faith in Christ.

Are you referring to Romans 5 here or Romans 10?

The way this is done is when you read rom 10:9,10 and then you are instantly righteous saved , and A saint .

So all I have to do is read Romans 10:9-10 and I'll be saved? I'm fairly certain that this is not what you meant to say, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. If you meant something besides that all I have to do is read those verses, then would you please let me know?

I really don't want to reply any further until I hear back from you because I don't want to assume that you had a particular meaning for the things that you said until I know for certain that's what you mean

I look forward to hearing back from you.


I hope this cleared thing up for you.


God Bless[/QUOTE]

 

[life_beckons]

i completely disagree that baptism is essential for salvation... in fact i strongly strongly strongly disagree. if this is what was required of me for salvation then there was no point in Jesus fulfilling the old law, which required acts, and suplementing it with yet more acts.

baptism is symbolic, it is ritual, it has no impact on salvation

 

[evangelist]

aggie03

Can you find a place in the New Testament where we are commanded to ask, specifically, for the blood of Jesus to wash us? Can you find any example of this in the conversions that can be found in Acts? I'm really curious as to your answer, because while I haven't yet scoured the New Testament looking for this specific detail, I can't recall it being listed anywhere. If you know of a place where it is listed,

First of all before I answer this questions biblically i want to remind you how important the blood is to this world and why we have already eternal life through the blood Of christ to those who recieve the blood and trust in the blood of Christ.

Le:17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

So yes life is in the Blood of Christ and not water.

1Jo:1:7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

these scriptures I am giving you are facts on what saves us and deliver us from sins , and we don`t need an included water gospel to help Jesus blood to forgive our sins again.

1Jo:1:9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

again Christ cleans us not the water.

the blood has even protected the Israelite in egypt.

In noah days it was even the water that killed, but the thing which saved Noah family was not the water it was the boat just like for us today the boat alone is like us being in Christ and Christ in us that saved us and gives us eternal life.

M't:26:26: And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
M't:26:27: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
M't:26:28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Re:12:11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

here what we should pray with our heart not just with our eyes or mouth, but the key is the heart which bind us in the relationship and changes us.
Also Christ gives us a new heart if Him and this is done by the heart not by the water .
the water can`t give us a new heart of Christ and it can`t save us,

Ro:10:8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro:10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro:10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are you referring to Romans 5 here or Romans 10?

I was talking aout the above verse.

We as Christian need alot of spiritual teaching to see and understand the scriptures for ourselves and this is what I wish you will study for yourself , and don`t even take my word because I am also mere man but ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes and heart to the truth praise God.

I remember reading a verse every man an liar but God is true.

I hope this has answered your questions and if not please let me know.
I don`t know everything but I have alot of experiences in the walk with God personally and I have tried out many religions including being AN CATHOLIC.


God Bless

 

[jessedance]

there is a verse in the bible that says 'he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved' People say this means you have to be baptised to be saved. It sounds good , but a big problem is that 99 percent of all christians aren't baptised. so I find it hard to beleive god would reject 99percent ofthe people that accept jesus as the son of god because they didn't get baptised.the bible says to be baptised in the name of Jesus almost no christian does this, well very few. the vast majority use scripture that isnt the word of god, math 28:19 to get around this commandment of god. (whatsoever you do in oword or deed do all in the name of the Lord Jesus) why don't peoople want to be baptised in Jesus name? because that's too fanatical they think. i think thats the reasson anywya.

 

[BarbB]

While I do not believe that it is necessary to be baptised to be saved (witness the thief on the cross), I do believe that Christians who have Jesus as their savior SHOULD be baptised as a public witness to their salvation. Why would a Christian not want to be baptised?

p.s. I was baptised by immersion tonight! I had been sprinkled as an infant, but the church I joined last Sunday required dunking so I was happily dunked tonight! I am very happy!