ItIsFinished!
Jesus Christ is our only hope.
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And no one said it did.it doesn't .
Neostarwcc said in post #1:
Is baptism a requirement for salvation?
Neostarwcc said in post #1:
There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread . . .
Neostarwcc said in post #1:
[Re: Mark 16:16]
Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned.
Neostarwcc said in post #1:
There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross.
David Cabrera said in post #81:
Where does the Bible say that Baptism is a public confession?
listen to and obey the one who saves ..No I'm not kidding. Hopefully you are.
I'm not saying whatsoever what you are implying.
What must one do to receive salvation?
thank youYes, ultimately.
For in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), then they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Christians can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.
Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).
Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.
Some people feel that baptism cannot be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation is not based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
Mark 16:16b is not contradicting the requirement of Mark 16:16a and other verses that Christians get baptized if they are to be ultimately saved. Mark 16:16b does not mention baptism because Mark 16:16b is referring to non-Christians, who do not get baptized.
The thief on the cross could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died; and so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, Christians have to obey all of His New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including His commandment that every Christian get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.
though it is more the this also -but i get the feeling i need not explain that to youIt doesn't. That's why the eunuch could be baptized anywhere there was water (Acts 8:36-38).
Also, the Bible doesn't say (as is sometimes claimed) that "burial" baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12) should not be taken literally.
For "burial" baptism is both literal and symbolic. Our literally being buried (immersed) in the water of baptism is symbolic of our dying and being buried into Jesus Christ's literal death and burial for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). Similarly, when we literally rise up out of the water of baptism, this is symbolic of our being raised up into a new life in Jesus, just as Jesus was literally raised from the dead (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). So if we deny our need to be immersed and then to come up out of the water, this is akin to denying the need for Jesus to literally die for our sins and be buried, and then to literally rise from the dead (1 Corinthians 15). That is, if we feel free to claim that the burial of baptism is wholly symbolic, then what will prevent us from claiming that Jesus' death and resurrection were also wholly symbolic, that they never actually happened, or never had to happen, literally?
Tertullian said it.I don't know any ancient Christian church that teaches that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation
there is so much debated on this ,while dancing around the elephants in the room ."Is baptism a requirement for salvation?"
Simple answer, no. As demonstrated by the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus.
yes the same way Abraham and David are saved .
have WE received command to be baptized ? YES .
GOD does not change - but the covenant he made has - he made a NEW ONE .Which is the same way anyone is saved, through faith, by grace, in Christ.
Not as the means to or requirement of salvation. But as a demonstration of salvation.
If you say Abraham, David and the thief on the cross did not receive a command to be baptized for salvation, and yet we are required to be baptized for salvation, you are promoting 2 different ways that people are saved, and I don't think you can defend 2 different dispensations for salvation from the Bible. God does not change.
Becoming a new creation in Christ is not accomplished by a man baptizing another man by earthly water, but by Him pouring His Spirit into us.
The water Jesus spoke of is the Spirit indwelling a person, you pour new wine into a new wine skin otherwise it would burst, break.
We are saved by His mercy, not according to our acts of righteousness. We are justified by HIS GRACE.
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
John 7
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Tertullian said it.
There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread and I figured I'd make a topic about it. It's my impression that no, we are not saved by baptism and the verses that seem to imply that Baptism is a requirement for salvation need to be looked at closer. Like for example in John 3:5. Jesus says:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
So just what is "being born of water?" To answer that we have to look at what Nicodemus says in John 3:4 "How can someone be born when they are old? Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!". also look at Jesus's reply in John 3:6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.". Jesus was talking about our physical and spiritual births. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born into the world and then are born again spiritually. That's what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 not that we have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.
Second, we have to look at Mark 16:16 it says
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned. To say that this verse is proof that baptism is required for salvation is to add words that are not present in the holy text. If Baptism were a requirement for salvation Mark would have said "But those who do not believe or who believe but are not baptized will be condemned". All the first part of the verse is saying is that those who happen to be baptized will be saved. Also see: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. Got questions explains it a lot better than I ever could.
These are just two of the most popular verses in the Bible that people try to use to "prove" that baptism is a requirement for salvation. But, there isn't a single verse in the Bible that "proves" that baptism is a requirement for salvation because, it isn't.
There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross. If baptism were required for salvation why would Jesus say "today you will be with me in paradise!"
So, what's the point in getting baptized then if it doesn't save us? Because, Baptism is a part of faith. Simple as that.
There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread and I figured I'd make a topic about it. It's my impression that no, we are not saved by baptism and the verses that seem to imply that Baptism is a requirement for salvation need to be looked at closer. Like for example in John 3:5. Jesus says:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
So just what is "being born of water?" To answer that we have to look at what Nicodemus says in John 3:4 "How can someone be born when they are old? Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!". also look at Jesus's reply in John 3:6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.". Jesus was talking about our physical and spiritual births. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born into the world and then are born again spiritually. That's what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 not that we have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.
Second, we have to look at Mark 16:16 it says
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned. To say that this verse is proof that baptism is required for salvation is to add words that are not present in the holy text. If Baptism were a requirement for salvation Mark would have said "But those who do not believe or who believe but are not baptized will be condemned". All the first part of the verse is saying is that those who happen to be baptized will be saved. Also see: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. Got questions explains it a lot better than I ever could.
These are just two of the most popular verses in the Bible that people try to use to "prove" that baptism is a requirement for salvation. But, there isn't a single verse in the Bible that "proves" that baptism is a requirement for salvation because, it isn't.
There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross. If baptism were required for salvation why would Jesus say "today you will be with me in paradise!"
So, what's the point in getting baptized then if it doesn't save us? Because, Baptism is a part of faith. Simple as that.
Some have thought that this verse speaks of the fleshly, physical birth (born of water - ie. amniotic fluid) and the second spiritual birth accomplished by the Spirit indwelling the believer, purifying and regenerating the believer in the process (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11). Such a reading is reinforced by the next verse which continues the thought from verse 5, making it more explicit:
John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Others have suggested that the verse could be translated "born of water even the Spirit" which would mean that the "water" is not physical baptism, or the fluid accompanying physical birth, but a figurative term for the Holy Spirit (Mark 1:8; Acts 1:5). The word translated "and" in John 3:5 is a primary particle ("kai" in Greek) and may be readily and variously translated as "and," "even," "even as," "indeed," "likewise," etc.
I don't think water baptism is at all necessary for salvation, for being made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit. It is clearly a work which Paul explicitly denies as necessary for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5) It is no surprise, then, that Paul wrote,
1 Corinthians 1:17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
If Paul believed baptism was integral to the Gospel of salvation, I have a hard time seeing how he could have written what he did here. He even remarks a couple of verses earlier that he was glad that he had not baptized some of the Corinthian believers! How could he say such a thing if baptism was essential to the Corinthian believers' salvation? It seems evident to me Paul didn't think it was.
There is, of course, the problem of the thief on the cross next to Christ. He was never baptized but yet Christ said to him, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." Is this merely an exceptional circumstance? How many times must people be saved under circumstances where they cannot be baptized in water before it ceases to be exceptional? Physically disabled people, badly ill people, people on their death-bed, people in prisons - I have heard of individuals in all of these circumstances coming to faith in Christ, unable, though, to be baptized. Are they unsaved? Or, like the thief on the cross, is water baptism not essential to their eternal destiny?
If baptism is vital to salvation, why does it not consistently appear in explanations in Scripture of how salvation is obtained? (John 1:12; John 3:16; John 20:31; Romans 10:9-10; 1 John 4:14-16, etc.)
I don't recall the very first Christians in Acts 2 being baptized prior to their being indwelt by the Spirit. They were spiritually-regenerated entirely apart from water baptism.
Don't get me wrong: I think baptism is very important. It ought to be the very first act we perform in consequence of the things we have come to believe concerning the Gospel. Being immediately baptized upon one's conversion demonstrates what the apostle James explained about faith always being reflected in corresponding behaviour. (James 2:14-26) Baptism communicates to the new believer that "faith without works is dead." It is also an outward sign of an inward change. It is symbolic of the believer's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-6), as well. But baptism is not salvific.
”Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none.”Really? Source? I'm interested.
”Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none.”
Baptism, 203 AD
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