Is anyone's Pastor or Priest okay with abortion? POLL

[~Anastasia~]

i understand your position but one must decide if bureaucracy is above truth my friend people need to see what they support

Well ... it's not "my position".

I am completely opposed to abortion (except as stated such as a tubal pregnancy when both mother and child will die or the mother's life is in actual danger - and that's her call and not mine.)

But if the thread gets closed, nothing more can be said. I'm only letting everyone know that the site mods might not allow graphic images. The thread could also be removed, and any further opportunity to make a difference would be lost.

 

[RaymondG]

Can you expound and actually explain what this means? It sounds like you're saying that aborted babies don't have souls, because "every soul created will have a chance to walk the earth". Aborted babies obviously never have a chance to walk the earth, so you seem to be saying that aborted babies have no souls.

If that is your position, if you believe that all aborted babies don't have souls, then how does that play into what you believe about the morality of abortion?

To be clearer. I believe that My spirit could have been destined for bodies that were aborted......yet I was not cast aside and did not lose any opportunities.......I was given to the next body that was allowed to live.......this assumes that God plans souls for bodies that he know wont make it...

I guess how strong our convictions are, against others, concerning this....relates to the importance we associated to the flesh......and how much we identify with it.......Is it a vessel or am I the body....

As far as morality.....discarding flesh just because you can, doesnt feel right to me, therefore I will not do so, nor condone it. (I feel the same with ending lives of animals, which most believe have no souls, for no good reason) But also, condemning others for doing things I would not, also does not feel right to me....nor does it make be feel that I am nor moral or a better person than one who may be pro-abortion.....which, again, is no one.

 

[RaymondG]

I am completely opposed to abortion

Im unsure why many feel this needs to be said.......There is no one who is completely for abortion or for abortion at all. Ive never heard anyone say this, ever.

But there are some who believe that others should have the ability to choose it for themselves....and those who feel that others should never have the option to choose it ever.....

There are those in between, however, who give reasons for abortions while saying they are against it.....e.g. Take all options away from the mother except the options that are acceptable to themselves......those they want others to have the option to abort for but dare not let them decide new options on their own.

You you care to make your position a little clearer?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I assume you are fully aware not everyone is interested in watching graphic videos that show what taking an unborn baby's life away looks like. It is disgusting for sure, and pro-choice people know it.

Why is it disgusting?

 

[FireDragon76]

To be clearer. I believe that My spirit could have been destined for bodies that were aborted......yet I was not cast aside and did not lose any opportunities.......I was given to the next body that was allowed to live.......this assumes that God plans souls for bodies that he know wont make it...

Human persons are psychosomatic unities. Christians have never seriously accepted metempsychosis or transmigration.

I simply don't believe that sort of speculation is relevant to abortion ethics, anyways. There's no need to introduce metaphysical speculation and hoodoo into something that should be a matter of consideration of the facts of science and deliberated through reasoned discourse.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Forgive me. I was replying because I am a Senior Ambassador and had told the thread that graphic images could get it shut down - and was told that someone understood "my position" but the people needed to know the truth.

I really don't want to get drawn into all this over every word or phrase I type.

Im unsure why many feel this needs to be said.......There is no one who is completely for abortion or for abortion at all. Ive never heard anyone say this, ever.

But there are some who believe that others should have the ability to choose it for themselves....and those who feel that others should never have the option to choose it ever.....

There are those in between, however, who give reasons for abortions while saying they are against it.....e.g. Take all options away from the mother except the options that are acceptable to themselves......those they want others to have the option to abort for but dare not let them decide new options on their own.

You you care to make your position a little clearer?

I'm not really concerned with secular legal matters, beyond what is normal for a Christian to be concerned. We always hope the laws of the land are just. They are not always so.


My position - is that God alone has the right to end any human life in such a scenario - That means no euthanasia or abortion.

People do not sin when they receive medical care. If medicine is necessary to save the mother's life (in the case of a baby growing inside the Fallopian tube, the baby will burst the tube, it cannot receive sufficient nourishment to grow until it is viable, and the mother will die - and the baby will die. Something has to be done, or both will die. Now, if we had the ability to move the baby to the womb so it could survive, that would be preferable. If we could medically help the baby survive outside the mother, that would be preferable. We don't have the medical ability to do either. This is not an "abortion" in the same sense as simply ending a unwanted pregnancy. It is s sad situation where the baby cannot survive, just as the case of an early miscarriage. There is no sin in being physically unable to carry the baby until it can survive on its own.

I hope that answers the question about my position.

 

[SPF]

@Gregory95 @SPF side note.....Georgia just past a law prohibiting abortion of a fetus after heartbeat is detected. Is this a win for you? Can you tell me approximately how soon after conception a heartbeat can be detected?

Yes, I consider this a "win". A heartbeat can be detected about 6 weeks after conception.

To be clearer. I believe that My spirit could have been destined for bodies that were aborted......yet I was not cast aside and did not lose any opportunities.......I was given to the next body that was allowed to live.......this assumes that God plans souls for bodies that he know wont make it...

I guess how strong our convictions are, against others, concerning this....relates to the importance we associated to the flesh......and how much we identify with it.......Is it a vessel or am I the body....

As far as morality.....discarding flesh just because you can, doesnt feel right to me, therefore I will not do so, nor condone it. (I feel the same with ending lives of animals, which most believe have no souls, for no good reason) But also, condemning others for doing things I would not, also does not feel right to me....nor does it make be feel that I am nor moral or a better person than one who may be pro-abortion.....which, again, is no one.

Thank you Raymond, while I completely disagree with you from a theological point of view, I think this is the most direct post I've ever read from you, and your position makes sense given what you believe. Thank you.

I simply don't believe that sort of speculation is relevant to abortion ethics, anyways. There's no need to introduce metaphysical speculation and hoodoo into something that should be a matter of consideration of the facts of science and deliberated through reasoned discourse.

I'm not sure sure about this. For me, the primary reason I believe abortion to be immoral is because I think all human beings, from conception, are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. The big thing here is that if I wasn't a Christian, if I didn't think that human being possessed inherent moral worth and value then I probably would be pro-choice.

A discussion over the morality of abortion cannot ever be solely based upon the facts of science.

 

[SPF]

People do not sin when they receive medical care. If medicine is necessary to save the mother's life (in the case of a baby growing inside the Fallopian tube, the baby will burst the tube, it cannot receive sufficient nourishment to grow until it is viable, and the mother will die - and the baby will die. Something has to be done, or both will die. Now, if we had the ability to move the baby to the womb so it could survive, that would be preferable. If we could medically help the baby survive outside the mother, that would be preferable. We don't have the medical ability to do either. This is not an "abortion" in the same sense as simply ending a unwanted pregnancy. It is s sad situation where the baby cannot survive, just as the case of an early miscarriage. There is no sin in being physically unable to carry the baby until it can survive on its own.

I completely agree, which is why when I argue against abortion I try to make it clear that I'm arguing against the 98.5% of abortions which are conducted for non-medical emergency reasons.

When a doctor is treating a pregnant woman, he should consider both the mother and the unborn as his patients. His goal should be the health and survival of both his patients. There are of course, while rare, instances in which life threatening emergencies happen. In these instances the doctor should try to save both, but when he is not able to save both, and can only save one, he still needs to save one.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, I consider this a "win". A heartbeat can be detected about 6 weeks after conception.

Thank you Raymond, while I completely disagree with you from a theological point of view, I think this is the most direct post I've ever read from you, and your position makes sense given what you believe. Thank you.

I'm not sure sure about this. For me, the primary reason I believe abortion to be immoral is because I think all human beings, from conception, are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value. The big thing here is that if I wasn't a Christian, if I didn't think that human being possessed inherent moral worth and value then I probably would be pro-choice.

A discussion over the morality of abortion cannot ever be solely based upon the facts of science.

You and I have no right to impose our religion upon other people. Human reason and scientific facts are the only legitimate basis for secular law.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I completely agree, which is why when I argue against abortion I try to make it clear that I'm arguing against the 98.5% of abortions which are conducted for non-medical emergency reasons.

When a doctor is treating a pregnant woman, he should consider both the mother and the unborn as his patients. His goal should be the health and survival of both his patients. There are of course, while rare, instances in which life threatening emergencies happen. In these instances the doctor should try to save both, but when he is not able to save both, and can only save one, he still needs to save one.

I completely agree with you also. Well said.

(Except I actually have no idea what percentage of abortions fall under such circumstances.)

But I agree completely with your points.

 

[SPF]

You and I have no right to impose our religion upon other people. Human reason and scientific facts are the only legitimate basis for secular law.

Who are you talking to? Certainly not me as I never said anything anywhere about secular law. I've only been talking about the morality of abortion. What secular says or doesn't say, what it permits or doesn't permit has no bearing at all upon whether or not it is moral to have an abortion.

 

[RaymondG]

Human persons are psychosomatic unities. Christians have never seriously accepted metempsychosis or transmigration.

I simply don't believe that sort of speculation is relevant to abortion ethics, anyways. There's no need to introduce metaphysical speculation and hoodoo into something that should be a matter of consideration of the facts of science and deliberated through reasoned discourse.

Before the womb, I knew you.....and will know you after you leave your current house.....If we can enter our new house(be reborn) while we yet liveth...we "shall never die....believeth though this?"

Our beliefs shape our world.....so there is technically no separating ones religion and beliefs from their moral and legal desires.... Although I agree we should create separation....or better yet, be non-judgmental......this is almost impossible for most.

If one believes that millions of souls are being created and cut off with no other chance to live (just directly to a heaven or hell)....there should be great outrage.....

Lets also remember the spontaneously aborted......As you must believe that their fate is the same as those abortion by choice....if we believe they have souls and are moral persons.....and the numbers for spontaneous far outweighs that of the planned.......let I see little concern for them.....

 

[Gregory95]

It is just the pro killers say the life in a womb isn't a person thus is okay to kill which is why i don't use such terminology but i do see your point friend

Forgive me, it's a matter of words. Perhaps you understand them differently?


Life could mean a blade of grass. We don't give it the same importance. Human beings, persons, created in the image of God - are what we are talking about.

I apologize if you misunderstood my post. Language has its limitations.

 

[Gregory95]

Forgive me. I was replying because I am a Senior Ambassador and had told the thread that graphic images could get it shut down - and was told that someone understood "my position" but the people needed to know the truth.

I really don't want to get drawn into all this over every word or phrase I type.



I'm not really concerned with secular legal matters, beyond what is normal for a Christian to be concerned. We always hope the laws of the land are just. They are not always so.


My position - is that God alone has the right to end any human life in such a scenario - That means no euthanasia or abortion.

People do not sin when they receive medical care. If medicine is necessary to save the mother's life (in the case of a baby growing inside the Fallopian tube, the baby will burst the tube, it cannot receive sufficient nourishment to grow until it is viable, and the mother will die - and the baby will die. Something has to be done, or both will die. Now, if we had the ability to move the baby to the womb so it could survive, that would be preferable. If we could medically help the baby survive outside the mother, that would be preferable. We don't have the medical ability to do either. This is not an "abortion" in the same sense as simply ending a unwanted pregnancy. It is s sad situation where the baby cannot survive, just as the case of an early miscarriage. There is no sin in being physically unable to carry the baby until it can survive on its own.

I hope that answers the question about my position.

i did not mean to upset you friend just responded as i understood i appreciate you explaining so now i understand truly where you are coming from

 

[~Anastasia~]

i did not mean to upset you friend just responded as i understood i appreciate you explaining so now i understand truly where you are coming from

You didn't upset me.

I was replying to questions related to replies to you which someone else maybe misunderstood because I was replying to you ...

There's a "who's on first" bit in there somewhere, but I'm not clever enough to write it.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Making the personal political is the stuff of ideologues.

FYI all health care issuess in politics are personal whether it is abortion, health insurance, or confidentialy signatures.

 

[FireDragon76]

FYI all health care issuess in politics are personal whether it is abortion, health insurance, or confidentialy signatures.

Yeah, but I don't have to see my own life as write large into ethical debates . That's just narcissistic.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

graphic videos that show what taking an unborn baby's life away looks like. It is disgusting for sure

Disgusting and sinful behavior I believe.
M-Bob