Is anybody that accepts "Christ" considered a "Christian"?

[Avodat]

No. You must accept that Jesus is the Divine son of God, he was crucified and he rose from the dead. This is the core of Christianity. Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah but not the Son of God and nobody would call them Christians. I do not believe any non-Trinitarian can call themselves Christian because their beliefs would be closer to Islam.

Lol! If you enforced that to its logical conclusion 90% of Christians would be regarded as Muslims! How many Churches do you know where any mention of the Holy Spirit is believed in and permitted full and open reign in the lives of individuals or congregations? Most would only pay lip service to his work in The Book and totally disregard the possibility of his work being valid today in almost any shape or form, sadly!!! There you have, effectively, millions and millions on non-Trinitarian believers in Jesus (or Muslims by your reckoning).

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You must accept that Jesus is the Divine son of God, he was crucified and he rose from the dead. This is the core of Christianity. Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah but not the Son of God and nobody would call them Christians. I do not believe any non-Trinitarian can call themselves Christian because their beliefs would be closer to Islam.

Actually..

It is the case that many within Muslim culture believe/accept the concept of a Trinity (even though it's the case that what is often accepted is the concept of Radical Monotheism...the same as Jews in Judaism when even they as Jewish Christians had issues with the Trinity concept due to how it wasn't something clearly expressed/understood within the OT - more discussed in #13 /#29 & #130) - and the same issue of acceptance goes for noting that the Lord is the Son of God. For them, to say "Jesus isn't the Son of God" is said in the sense that they don't believe He's the "Son of God" in the sense that the Greek Gods had sexual relations with humans - and as Christians don't believe in that either, it often leads to a lot of misunderstanding because many don't know where the other is coming from and how to clarify when something is said to give the wrong impression (more shared here in #69 , #70, #71, #73 & #80 ).

If the fear is having similarity become a means of saying one's not a Christian, I'd wonder how far one would go with it - for it's not the case that believers automatically become Wiccans/Neo-Pagans simply because we believe in environmental stewardship/nature being sacred as a Work of the Lord ..similar to the Wiccans/Neo-Pagans who feel creation has a spiritual aspect to it that needs to be valued/respected...nor do we say drinking coffee is bad/makes us into Witches/Wizards because they happen to drink it and buy from the same Starbucks as we do. And likewise, it's not the case that non-Trinitarians cease being able to call themselves Christian because their beliefs are closer to how many are within Islam. For Christianity always had camps within it that were Non-Trinitarian - and it was always a debate. A Secondary issue rather than primary one that salvation hung upon.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

How many Churches do you where any mention of the Holy Spirit is believed in and permitted full and open reign in the lives of individuals or congregations? Most would only pay lip service to his work in The Book and totally disregard the possibility of his work being valid today in almost any shape or form, sadly!!! There you have, effectively, millions and millions on non-Trinitarian believers in Jesus

Sad but true - as it often seems the main ones focused on/discussed in churches are either the Messiah or the Father...and the Ruach Ha Kodesh is left to a quick after note.

 

[aniello]

Lol! If you enforced that to its logical conclusion 90% of Christians would be regarded as Muslims! How many Churches do you where any mention of the Holy Spirit is believed in and permitted full and open reign in the lives of individuals or congregations? Most would only pay lip service to his work in The Book and totally disregard the possibility of his work being valid today in almost any shape or form, sadly!!! There you have, effectively, millions and millions on non-Trinitarian believers in Jesus (or Muslims by your reckoning).

Sad but true - as it often seems the main ones focused on/discussed in churches are either the Messiah or the Father...and the Ruach Ha Kodesh is left to a quick after note.

Good morning Gentlemen, about 10AM here in New Mexico as I sit hooked up to blood cleansing machines at Hospital, Albuquerque. No pity or other stuff please, I'm an old man and "stuff" happens of course. Enough, please, about me. I am having difficulty focusing and centering on a subject I have wondered about for decades, many decades.

OK, and so.

Friends Avodat and Gxg, referring to the above that I underlined and highlighted I have question. Please understand that I'm not making fun of, nor putting down, your comments, please.

If The Holy Spirit were allowed to have "full and open reign" in a congregation and the community in which that congregation is located, what would be the manifestations(is that the correct word?) that such as me wpuld see, hear, sense or ??? that would indicate to me and/or others that G-d's Most Holy Spirit is at work(or whatever the proper word is supposed to be)?

Seriously, I ask.

I have absolutely no(none, zip) theological-Bible school training under my belt, NONE. By G-d's Grace I have been allowed to be a rather abrasive, conniving, sometimes very aggressive old Engineer/Att'y, and, I suppose, because of being Bi(maybe Tri)-racial, quadra-ethnic(Native, Sicilian, Spanish and Heinz-American Jew exposed to Rez catholocism) I tend to be very analytical, ready to reject most "Boop'Jaw", as my first father in law, it was his custom to say. I do try to dig out things though as permitted it is to me time and resources.

Sometimes, in the battle heat, I've visited the National Cemetery up in Santa Fe, to be with a couple of my old crew members that were lost on our last mission(1968). How I wish I had not been the hell-razing lunatic I was. I don't know their ultimate fate. I was not a positive contribution to them. Ach, if only I could have put time in a bottle, darkly, to see clearly, someday, G-d willing so.

When I leave our heroes there, I have sometimes audibly but quietly asked, 'OK, who's the greatest engineer or lawyer here? No one has ever answered...................................................................................yet. But someday................................. .

I'm ok, I think it's the pain killers working on me, they're fixing my face thing again.

Dr. Quack-Quack and his nurse, Brunhilda von NeedleStabber are very capable.

Like Gustav Mahler 's(Messianic Jew btw) Symphony #2 in c-E(nick named The Resurrection Symphony, extremely complex), I view this life as WAR.

"
Was du geschlagen, zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"

Back to question. If Holy Spirit were free to reign in faith people, what would I see, hear, perceive?

Thanks, apologize for being rather goofey today.

Pace i salute,
ciaou.

 

[Avodat]

Aniello - sorry to hear you are undergoing running repairs in dry dock for a while! I hope you are soon sent on your way feeling a lot better. The Vampire (bloodsucker) is the one that I really hate - I've had a number of operations and I have a real fear of needles, now, whether it is to put stuff in or take it out!

In response to your question (no offence seen, or taken, btw), I would expect to see a number of the things that are recounted in 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 as well as the fruits of the Spirit and the full armour of G_d etc etc., in those who claim to be Trinitarian.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I think{my opinion} that there is no Holy spirit as there was in the first church.

If there was a Holy spirit working in full potential, I would expect to see great miracles like people walking into a children's cancer unit and actually healing everyone.

Before the Holy spirit was given, people still had the spirit of God and miracles did happen but nothing compared to what happened when the baptism of the Holy spirit came upon the disciples.

I believe that that type of Holy spirit in full measure is no longer enjoyed by anyone{although millions claim to have it}.

I just don't see any evidence that the Holy spirit is working in the way it did at the first.

If somebody claims to have such a spirit, I would very much like to meet them and be healed, but I doubt I will find anyone.

But doesn't the bible say as much?

That the spirit comes and goes?

 

[Avodat]

I think{my opinion} that there is no Holy spirit as there was in the first church.

If there was a Holy spirit working in full potential, I would expect to see great miracles like people walking into a children's cancer unit and actually healing everyone.

Before the Holy spirit was given, people still had the spirit of God and miracles did happen but nothing compared to what happened when the baptism of the Holy spirit came upon the disciples.

I believe that that type of Holy spirit in full measure is no longer enjoyed by anyone{although millions claim to have it}.

I just don't see any evidence that the Holy spirit is working in the way it did at the first.

If somebody claims to have such a spirit, I would very much like to meet them and be healed, but I doubt I will find anyone.

But doesn't the bible say as much?

That the spirit comes and goes?

We are not permitted to minister on here so we can't really help you on CF, but the Holy Spirit is very much alive and well in this day and age, I assure you! Healing is carried out as G_d leads, not as man wishes to see it as some sort of proof, as Yeshua said, in a slightly different, though related, event.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

We are not permitted to minister on here so we can't really help you on CF, but the Holy Spirit is very much alive and well in this day and age, I assure you! Healing is carried out as G_d leads, not as man wishes to see it as some sort of proof, as Yeshua said, in a slightly different, though related, event.

I'm not saying that there is no Holy spirit, I'm just not seeing the same things that I read in the New Testament when the disciples received power.

They walked into cities where all were healed.

I just don't see that type of power in these days.

I know miracles still happen{at least I believe they do} but it doesn't seem like its the same type of power it was in the first church.

 

[visionary]

The day is coming when the full power of the workings of the Holy Spirit will prevail amongst the believers in such a way that all the glory goes to God.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

We are not permitted to minister on here so we can't really help you on CF,

I don't really know what you mean by this?

Is there something you would say but can't?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The day is coming when the full power of the workings of the Holy Spirit will prevail amongst the believers in such a way that all the glory goes to God.

I believe this also, but I just don't see it today, in these days, or since the first or second century A.D.

 

[Avodat]

I don't really know what you mean by this?

Is there something you would say but can't?

Yes

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Yes

Well, That answered my question.

I'm always open for ideas, and if there is anything you would want to tell me that you can't say publicly, feel free to advise me in PM. I greatly respect everything you say.

I can't tell you all how happy I am to meet like minded people here.

 

[janwoG]

To football 5680
I do not believe any non-Trinitarian can call themselves Christian because their beliefs would be closer to Islam.
No in Islam Muhammad is the seal of the prophets, thus far superior to Isa (Jesus). Isa has little influence if any on Muslim worship. At most, Isa is used towards Christians to motivate them to adopt their view on him (not Him), in order to convince you since Isa is compatible with the Quran, you should follow the way of Isa, who will confirm that Islam is the right way at his return.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No in Islam Muhammad is the seal of the prophets, thus far superior to Isa (Jesus). Isa has little influence if any on Muslim worship. At most, Isa is used towards Christians to motivate them to adopt their view on him (not Him), in order to convince you since Isa is compatible with the Quran, you should follow the way of Isa, who will confirm that Islam is the right way at his return.

Although I know you were not speaking to me initially, I thought it'd be appropriate to respond with some quick thoughts on some things you pointed out.....based on things I've seen directly.

Muhammad is not the last prophet nor is he the one who seals up the prophethood as if no one is greater than him - for according to Islamic narrations, Jesus is the last prophet who will eradicate unbelief and usher in the final hour. ..thus meaning Jesus seals up prophecy and vision, not Muhammad (more at Is Muhammad the Last Prophet? - Answering Islam ).

As one resource noted best (for brief excerpt) :

In the Qur’an, Jesus is twice referred to as the “Word of God,” a title that many consider to be the highest title given to any person in the book. While describing Jesus’ miraculous conception, the Qur’an states: “The angels said, “Mary, God gives you good news of a word from him [God]…’” (Surah 3:45). The second passage brings this truth to greater light: “People of the book, don’t exaggerate in your religion, and only say the truth about God. Truly the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is God’s messenger and his word which he sent down on Mary, and a spirit from him. So believe in God and his messengers and do not say three. Stop it. It is better for you. God is one God. Far be it from him to have a boy. He owns what is in the heavens and the earth. God is a sufficient trustee.” (4:171).

There’s quite a bit in this verse, and we should spend some time unpacking it. First, notice the titles given to Jesus. Each echoes biblical truth regarding his identity. He is the Messiah (Jn. 4:25-6), the Son of Mary (Mk. 6:3), God’s Messenger/Prophet (Mt. 13:57, Heb. 3:1), the Word of God, and a spirit from God (1 Co. 15:45).
​

It is safe to say that a large majority of Muslims agree that Jesus (Prophet Isa) is going to return, which automatically contradicts the idea that Allah will not send mankind another messenger. The one verse in the Quran that many Islamic leaders cling to is that Muhammad( pbuh) is the "Seal of the Prophets."(33:40) - though many have thankfully sought to address what it means to be the "Seal of the Prophets?" ...and noted that it means many things but one thing it does not mean is that Allah will never send guidance for a long time afterward.

There was no general agreement among early Muslims that the phrase 'Seal of the Prophets' meant that there would be no prophets after Muhammad - for it is thought that the doctrine of Muhammad being the final prophet was adopted as official Islamic doctrine in the early years of the 4th Islamic century(late 10th century AD) mainly as a counter to the numerous revolts that had occurred and were still occurring against the caliphate in the name of various persons claiming to be prophets.

Technically, the word 'Seal'(khatam) can mean ornament, signet ring or a seal ring which is worn (like to seal a document) - and as many Muslims have noted, the phrase 'Seal of the Prophets' means Allah giving Muhammad his seal of approval or regarding Muhammad as an ornament among the prophets of Allah. Additionally, some commentators also state that khatam an-nabiyyin means the 'Sealer of the Prophets' in the sense that Muhammad is the one who gives the seal of approval to the proceeding prophets.......something that directly goes in support of Isa (Jesus) being the Messiah since even Muhammad - exposed to it when seeing Christianity in His time - noted others needed to follow Him. For others trying to argue Muhammad was saying he was the final prophet, He did not say at any point he is the Final Messenger, which the Quran makes a clear distinction between (nabi and rasul).

The reality of partial truth being revealed even if/when the Quran is inconsistent on various parts because of incomplete information...

Many Muslims/others from Muslim background have noted this when sharing plainly on the ways Isa was always meant to be superior to Muhammad - with many noting that others need to follow what Christians have noted when it comes to acknowledging that the Messiah is truly the Son of God sent to redeem mankind....even though their brothers/sisters may've not had the best understanding on all points. For them, During the daily salat, they refrain from saying the shahadah unless they omit the second phrase, "and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah" and instead insert "and Isa (Jesus) is the Eternal Word of Allah" or "and Isa (Jesus) is the Sovereign Lord." They acknowledge that only the Bible is the Word of God and that the Qur'an, while containing beautiful Arabic and important insights into Arab culture, has no authority over the Bible.

Additionally, they note how in the Qur'an, Jesus is greater than Muhammad...evidenced by how Jesus' titles in the Qur'an are greater - noting several honorary titles such as titles of Messiah, the Word of God, the Spirit of God (Sura 4:169-71), the Speech of Truth (Sura 19:34-35), a Sign unto Men, and Mercy from God (Sura 19:21). For even in the Qur'an, Jesus lived a life that is much more extraordinary than Muhammad. Jesus' miracles in the Qur'an are greater, for the Qur'an affirms several miraculous aspects of Christ's life....such as the virgin birth of Christ (Sura 19:16-21; 3:37-45)....that Christ performed miracles (Sura 3:37-45; 43: 63-65)....the prophethood of Christ (19:29-31)...and it also affirms that Christ did not die but was raised up to heaven by God (4:158; 19:33) - for that which is LIFE ITSELF cannot be conquered by death - while in contrast, according to the Qur'an, there is very little, if anything, supernatural regarding the life of Muhammad. .

And since this is evident in the Qur'an, it is wise for all Muslims to study the life of Jesus in the Bible. For not only is the Bible an accurate historical record, but it is a text that Muhammad encouraged Muslims to study (Sura 10:94; 2:136; 4:163; 5:56; 5:68; 35:31). Muhammad believed the Bible in the sixth century AD was accurate - but we have many ancient New Testaments that predate the sixth century.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Aniello - sorry to hear you are undergoing running repairs in dry dock for a while! I hope you are soon sent on your way feeling a lot better. The Vampire (bloodsucker) is the one that I really hate - I've had a number of operations and I have a real fear of needles, now, whether it is to put stuff in or take it out!

In response to your question (no offence seen, or taken, btw), I would expect to see a number of the things that are recounted in 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 as well as the fruits of the Spirit and the full armour of G_d etc etc., in those who claim to be Trinitarian.

In regards to Aniello, I agree with the sentiments as it concerns repairs stinking a lot of times - and hoping for the best on his behalf.

OK, and so.

Friends Avodat and Gxg, referring to the above that I underlined and highlighted I have question. Please understand that I'm not making fun of, nor putting down, your comments, please.

If The Holy Spirit were allowed to have "full and open reign" in a congregation and the community in which that congregation is located, what would be the manifestations(is that the correct word?) that such as me wpuld see, hear, sense or ??? that would indicate to me and/or others that G-d's Most Holy Spirit is at work(or whatever the proper word is supposed to be)?

Seriously, I ask.

​

Concerning the question, some of the places where the question seemed to best be addressed (when going in-depth) would be places such as Messianic Take on "You Shall Recieve Power" Acts 1:8 & How do Messianics view the [indwelling of] the Holy Spirit?. I agree with the fact that the HOLY Spirit being emphasized would mean a witnessing/account of the giftings noted in the passages you brought up - as well as events in the Book of Acts. Many of those things have occurred over the centuries in various ways - and in many cases, the Power of the Holy Spirit was emphasized as well as Personhood of the Holy Spirit and the ways the Spirit works..

On the same token, I do not take the stance that all things which occurred in the Book of Acts were meant to always happen SIMULTANEOUSLY - or even weekly. The healings in Acts are a good example, as they were not like Popcorn happening for months back to back - and it's easy, as I've seen, to forget that one can read through Acts in 15 minutes-30 minutes and forget that the book takes place over multiple decades...with many events narrated for what they were rather than portraying them as "Everyday realities."

Thus, to emphasize the Holy Spirit would not mean that one should expect to see Dead people raised all the time in one's community - or to see it where others Fall dead like Annais and Sapphira in Acts 5 when they lied to the Holy Spirit and died ...an event that many have noted to be relevant to the early church when establishing the authority of the Apostles/ensuring things would go right. Some gifts seemed to be done on a more daily basis - like gifts of helps or encouragement, teaching, preaching, prophecy and other things - and even with various GIFTS of healings (including ability to make things in the natural to help heal others - #26 ) and various types of tongues ( more shared here in #42 / #56 ). ...whereas other gifts like working of miracles would be things I'd not expect to see except in extreme circumstances or seasons.

As shared in #54 , my own stance tends to lean toward a view known as "Concentric Cessationism" dealing with the issue that seems to be in line with many wondering why there're healings/wonders more so around the world than here in the states at times--as they believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel, basically seeing more so occurring within the "cutting edge" places of the Gospel being spread.

The Holy Spirit was meant to always give glory/point back to the Testimony of Yeshua - as the Lord noted in John 14 and John 16 when describing the role of the Counselor in our lives and how the Spirit would help us to look to the Messiah - and as the Holy Spirit is the one who seals us (#183 /#186 ) and operates through us (Ephesians 5:17-19 , Ephesians 4:29-31 ), it makes sense not to leave the Spirit out. Even though it's possible one could still operate in the Power of the Spirit and perhaps not know fully what's up. All believers have the Spirit living inside of them---especially in light of 1 John 2:19-21 /1 John 2 /1 John 2:26-28 on the Holy Spirit teaching others/anointing those who are His followers...but what one does with the Holy Spirit is different than having it, just as one can abuse the gifts of the Lord or fail to utilize them to their best level.

The disciples encountered some people who had been BAPTIZED – confirming their heart’s desire to be in the KINGDOM of God – yet they lacked access to the Holy Spirit to take them to an entirely different level.

Acts 8:15-17
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47-48, Acts 18:8, etc.)
​

Others were disciples serving the Lord and yet they didn't have access to the Holy Spirit in fullness), it makes a big difference when there's explicit discussion on the Ruach Ha Kodesh - and discuss on the Spirit from a Trinitarian perspective doesn't mean one will see manifestations occurring in the same manner as one would expect in a Charismatic or Pentecostal setting. The Spirit of God has operated in so many varied ways - be it in Liturgical settings (i.e. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, etc.) where things are very much calm many times ...yet intense...or in other settings.

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit operates wherever He wishes - and I cannot make a hard/fast rule that the Spirit of God is not present somewhere simply because others may not tend to emphasize. I'd definitely say there are degrees of how much people can experience with the HOLY Spirit that come with certain actions - but the Spirit of God is present throughout the Body of Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:2

Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that[a] you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
​

 

[Avodat]

John 14:12, in the context of the rest of that chapter, seems pretty clear to me that Yeshua was not writing off the work of the Holy Spirit; quite the opposite, in fact, but not simply 'on-demand' by man, as he commented to those wanting signs to prove his 'call' by G_d.

 

[astein]

I think{my opinion} that there is no Holy spirit as there was in the first church.

G_ds Holy Spirit is alive friend.

 

[astein]

John 14:12, in the context of the rest of that chapter, seems pretty clear to me that Yeshua was not writing off the work of the Holy Spirit; quite the opposite, in fact, but not simply 'on-demand' by man, as he commented to those wanting signs to prove his 'call' by G_d.

It is true friend.

Many seeds are planted and many miracles witnessed. The hard in heart are many for the love of money.

G_ds own remain in G_d alone.

 

[visionary]

There is no conversion, no movement of faith, no inspiration unless the Holy spirit is at work.