Is abortion ever acceptable?

[redleghunter]

Abortion, on Middle Ground

by David Katz M.D.

Director, Yale Prevention Research Center

It truly saddens me to see such an intelligent mind as Dr Katz believe his own false equivalencies.

 

[dreadnought]

How does she accomplish exercising this so called right?

By having an abortion, if she chooses.

 

[devin553344]

No I don’t think a court would conclude an innocent life in the womb enslaves a woman. Perhaps Third wave feminists make this argument but the Holy Scriptures does not and reasonable people would not.



Therefore killing an innocent life in the womb is justified because that innocent life has somehow enslaved the pregnant woman. Do we throw 3 year olds in jail for accidentally burning down a house?

Thanks for conversing with me. I was attempting to see where the courts went and why abortion is legal. And I clearly see some reason for it under certain circumstances. And I didn't clearly see where the bible was against it. But I don't see why the courts allow it for just any reason.

 

[redleghunter]

By having an abortion, if she chooses.

Therefore exercising a so called right not to carry what she does not want to merits the termination of another distinct human life.

The right to not carry the innocent child to term includes premeditated murder.

You alright with that?

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks for conversing with me. I was attempting to see where the courts went and why abortion is legal. And I clearly see some reason for it under certain circumstances. And I didn't clearly see where the bible was against it. But I don't see why the courts allow it for any reason.

Roe v Wade was about privacy rights. Because that is the way the court went it opened the door for abortion on demand for any reason and at any time during the pregnancy.

Prior to Roe, every state had abortion protections for the woman’s life. Most states had provisions for rape and incest. What Roe addresses was abortion on demand as a right.

 

[devin553344]

Roe v Wade was about privacy rights. Because that is the way the court went it opened the door for abortion on demand for any reason and at any time during the pregnancy.

Prior to Roe, every state had abortion protections for the woman’s life. Most states had provisions for rape and incest. What Roe addresses was abortion on demand as a right.

Can you elaborate on the argument for abortion in Roe v Wade? I don't see how privacy relates. For instance, courts don't care about privacy during court proceedings related to killing.

 

[dreadnought]

Therefore exercising a so called right not to carry what she does not want to merits the termination of another distinct human life.

The right to not carry the innocent child to term includes premeditated murder.

You alright with that?

So-called right? What right do we have to force a woman to carry a child that was forced upon her?

 

[SPF]

I think you're trying to appeal to the tender hearts of Christians. Which is compelling but not practical or just. It's like warfare, I would say it's just to defend the freedom of this country from oppression of nations. Even by killing humans that have worth. Sometimes to avoid certain sufferings allows for the killing of people with worth in the justice of law.

The last thing I do is fallaciously appeal to emotions. And if the only response you can give is that, then I’ll assume you have no substance to respond with.

1. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

2. We know Biblically that all human beings, regardless of their age, are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

3. Therefore, we can say without question that at least 98% of abortions, which are committed for convenience reasons, are immoral.

She has the right not to carry the child she didn't ask for.

I wonder, people (usually Americans) always talk about “our rights”. Yet, when I read Scripture I don’t see myself as being told I have any rights, can anyone show me where that’s taught? I see people like Paul calling himself a slave to Christ in Galatians 1:10. I see other places where I’m told to offer my body as a living sacrifice, I see other places where I’m told to honor God with my body. Are we not bought with a price? I think the whole “rights” argument fails if you’re a Christian.

It fails because one, my “rights” are to live a life that glorified God. And second, it completely ignores any “rights” of the unborn human.

 

[dreadnought]

The last thing I do is fallaciously appeal to emotions. And if the only response you can give is that, then I’ll assume you have no substance to respond with.

1. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

2. We know Biblically that all human beings, regardless of their age, are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

3. Therefore, we can say without question that at least 98% of abortions, which are committed for convenience reasons, are immoral.

I wonder, people (usually Americans) always talk about “our rights”. Yet, when I read Scripture I don’t see myself as being told I have any rights, can anyone show me where that’s taught? I see people like Paul calling himself a slave to Christ in Galatians 1:10. I see other places where I’m told to offer my body as a living sacrifice, I see other places where I’m told to honor God with my body. Are we not bought with a price? I think the whole “rights” argument fails if you’re a Christian.

It fails because one, my “rights” are to live a life that glorified God. And second, it completely ignores any “rights” of the unborn human.

Yes, people have rights.

 

[devin553344]

The last thing I do is fallaciously appeal to emotions. And if the only response you can give is that, then I’ll assume you have no substance to respond with.

1. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

2. We know Biblically that all human beings, regardless of their age, are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

3. Therefore, we can say without question that at least 98% of abortions, which are committed for convenience reasons, are immoral.

I think it is immoral to kill the fetus for selfish reasons. My argument was that I don't think we can morally make a little girl child carry the baby from an incest, or rape, or if a woman's life is endangered.

I think we can kill human life under certain circumstances. And yes they have worth and it is unfortunate. But that's my belief.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Then give us your definition of person.

A person is a being that is intelligent enough to recognize itself apart from others and handle abstract thinking.

Embryologists and geneticists and High school biology informs us we are human beings genetically at conception. The parents each give 23 human chromosomes to create a new distinct human life. There’s the answer. We are human beings at conception. We can’t be anything else. We are small and look exactly the way we should for that stage of our development.

You are again confusing being on the way to being a person with being a person.

No it’s not. Holy Scriptures addresses protecting innocent life and the premeditated killing of other human beings.

Again you are assuming the conclusion in advance to reach your conclusion.

Where you assert Scriptures are silent the Incarnation speaks loudly of the sanctity of human life at the earliest of stages. Jesus Christ was once a zygote as we were.

Zygotes that go on to be born and develop brains are not in the same class as zygotes that never do that.

This is your evidence? An apocryphal book?

Clearly speaks to the ancient status of such opinions. Not scripture, of course, but shows those kinds of ideas were present in ancient times.

Christians condemned abortion long before there was a Roman Catholic Pope.
The Didache is attributed as one of the earliest pieces of evidence of early church teachings outside of the NT. It clearly taught abortion was murder.

Abortion was practiced in new testament times and yet the new testament NEVER condemns abortion. Only those who ASSUME a zygote is a person, without biblical or physiological evidence, make it a sin. Personhood requires a working brain of sufficient complexity, which is simply not present in the first half of pregnancy. Your religious opinion says that isn't so. My religious opinion says it is so.

 

[redleghunter]

Can you elaborate on the argument for abortion in Roe v Wade? I don't see how privacy relates. For instance, courts don't care about privacy during court proceedings related to killing.

SCOTUS had to slice and dice the Constitution to find zones of privacy:

The Constitution does not list a right to privacy. The Court has held, however, that Bill of Rights protections of free speech, assembly, and religious exercise (First Amendment), along with freedom from forced quartering of troops (Third), unreasonable searches and seizures (Fourth), and forced self-incrimination (Fifth) create “zones of privacy.” Further, the Ninth Amendment’s protection of unenumerated rights could be said to protect privacy. These “zones,” the Court held, are places into which the government cannot unreasonably intrude. Roe claimed that the law robbed her of her right to privacy as protected by the combination of Bill of Rights amendments, and of her liberty as protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

https://www.billofrightsinstitute.o...supreme-court-cases-elessons/roe-v-wade-1973/
​

What's interesting is "Roe" Norma Leah McCorvey Nelson, never procured the abortion she sought out. She had the kid. She also later became a Pro Life advocate and devout Roman Catholic.

 

[redleghunter]

So-called right? What right do we have to force a woman to carry a child that was forced upon her?

We don't. The question is what right does any human being have to determine the life of another? That's the question.

 

[redleghunter]

A person is a being that is intelligent enough to recognize itself apart from others and handle abstract thinking.

Let's start here. Who has defined the above statement as objectively a true statement?

 

[redleghunter]

Zygotes that go on to be born and develop brains are not in the same class as zygotes that never do that.

Therefore at some point Jesus became a human being? When was that exactly? What was He before that?

 

[redleghunter]

Abortion was practiced in new testament times and yet the new testament NEVER condemns abortion.

Both the OT and NT forbid the taking of another human life. Unless you can find the Torah teaching of abortion the conclusion is no mention of the procedure means it was not practiced.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Let's start here. Who has defined the above statement as objectively a true statement?

Many persons. Other persons, such as yourself, claim it is enough to have the genes. Making a living skin cell on your body a person.

 

[redleghunter]

Many persons. Other persons, such as yourself, claim it is enough to have the genes. Making a living skin cell on your body a person.

Who is the many? How is your statement a true statement? And when exactly does this happen?

AKA where are your facts and substantiation for your claim?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Who is the many? How is your statement a true statement? And when exactly does this happen?

AKA where are your facts and substantiation for your claim?

Oh come on, the fact that people have different opinions on this subject is common knowledge. The fact remains this issue can never be scientifically or factually decided, it is a matter of opinions and we all believe our own opinions are correct. I suggest that we let people who don't believe abortion is morally allowed bear there children to term and even help them to do that and we let people who wish to terminate their pregnancy in the first half of their term go ahead and do that.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh come on, the fact that people have different opinions on this subject is common knowledge. The fact remains this issue can never be scientifically or factually decided, it is a matter of opinions and we all believe our own opinions are correct. I suggest that we let people who don't believe abortion is morally allowed bear there children to term and even help them to do that and we let people who wish to terminate their pregnancy in the first half of their term go ahead and do that.

I apologize if I came across as probing. However you have not substantiated your claims.