Intimacy

[Texas Lynn]

Sorry I don't understand what's oversimplified exactly TL?

Jesus IS the same God that gave the OT laws...
people pointing to Jesus in the NT as if He's some direct opposite contrast -- a nicer, more loving God now are in blissful ignorance.

Anyone attacking the "nasty OT God" is attacking Jesus Christ
directly. That is the point being made.
That "monster god" you refer to of the OT was JESUS Himself.
He literally followed & obeyed that Law in human form on this
earth - and taught it.
Why are people looking at it with disdain and repulsion???

So you reject that Jesus & embrace this NT Jesus instead?
His judgment will be just as harsh in the NT (as you read in the NT) -
as it was in the OT.
His justice is simply being delayed for a later time, after death.

He didn't all of a sudden become Cuddles the teddy bear in the NT & all the judgment & wrath dissappeared. & the law isn't even gone...
some of it's changed due to His fulfillment of it - moral laws never changed, they are still the display of "LOVE" of neighbor as self.

Romans 13:9
For this, " YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,"
and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The obedience of the moral law IS LOVE - and thereby fulfilling the [moral] law of God that is still active & unchanged.
Our altering of moral law & deciding what we can do becuz isn't
harm" is not love, it's rebellion & unloving.

Jesus said:
Matthew 18:9
" If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you
It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:6
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble,
it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 11:24
"Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom
in the day of judgment, than for you."

That sounds nice, but if that's what "god" is like then such a "god" is of no use. I don't believe that such a "god" exists or if it did exist that it would be worthy of anything from humans at all. I don't believe any divine being ordered the Hebrews to smite other tribes; I believe this is merely the story put out by TPTB at the time. That is certainly one aspect of my not being a fundamentalist. If the cosmology you postulate were real, which I believe it not to be than I would refuse to go to such a hebbin with such an evil "god". The "Love of Jesus" as described does not atone for the evils of such a cosmic horror whatsoever. There was no flood of Noah as a judgment for example; this is merely an ancient legend based on primitive understanding of the periodic floods of river valleys. They had the 500 year flood and somebody wrote a story about it. Belief in the literalism of such things is not in any sense an aspect of Christianity at all but instead an aspect of one particular sect of it.

 

[Texas Lynn]

By this post and others in the thread it sounds as if you have already decided. I don't understand the purpose of the thread.

Discussion.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Justification, apparently.

I think it has been established that the justification for finger-wagging toward the premaritally sexually active is primarily rooted in a desire for power and control. Certainly nothing posted here in this thread contradicts that.

 

[HuntingMan]

I don't believe that such a "god" exists or if it did exist that it would be worthy of anything from humans at all. I don't believe any divine being ordered the Hebrews to smite other tribes;

You 'dont believe'...that pretty much says it all.

 

[HuntingMan]

I think it has been established that the justification for finger-wagging toward the premaritally sexually active is primarily rooted in a desire for power and control. Certainly nothing posted here in this thread contradicts that.

Oh please.
Fingers are 'wagging' so that sin might not be committed by those who look for justification and excuses to commit sexual sin.

 

[chingchang]

That sounds nice, but if that's what "god" is like then such a "god" is of no use. I don't believe that such a "god" exists or if it did exist that it would be worthy of anything from humans at all. I don't believe any divine being ordered the Hebrews to smite other tribes; I believe this is merely the story put out by TPTB at the time. That is certainly one aspect of my not being a fundamentalist. If the cosmology you postulate were real, which I believe it not to be than I would refuse to go to such a hebbin with such an evil "god". The "Love of Jesus" as described does not atone for the evils of such a cosmic horror whatsoever. There was no flood of Noah as a judgment for example; this is merely an ancient legend based on primitive understanding of the periodic floods of river valleys. They had the 500 year flood and somebody wrote a story about it. Belief in the literalism of such things is not in any sense an aspect of Christianity at all but instead an aspect of one particular sect of it.

TL,

Did you know that the flood "legend" is not just contained in the OT...but is part of every ancient culture/religion across the world? Did you also know that there is geological evidence for such a flood? There is more scientific proof of that flood event than there is for the resurrection of Jesus. We're not required to believe in the flood...but IMHO it did occur. I wouldn't bet my life on it...but I would bet every cent I have...including the equity in my house on it. Just because something seems unbelievable...doesn't mean it didn't happen. What is more unbelievable...that a human would peform the miracles documented in the NT and would come back to life after being killed...or that there was a global flood?

Otherwise...I think you're onto something when comparing the God of the OT vs. Jesus' Father. The Apostle John says that 'God is love'. Jesus preached love. James called it the 'royal' law. Ain't nuthin' loving about killing 'sucklings'. The OT God would be viewed as a narcissistic killer one moment...then a loving Father the next. Sorta scitzo. It is very hard to reconcile the two portrails. Perhaps they are different Gods...and the Most High God (Jesus' Father) is the one we are to be worshipping? I dunno. I've read other commentary where an author does a good job explaining evil and harmonizing the OT and NT God. Details. All we really NEED though is Jesus...he said 'believe in me' and 'obey my commands'. We know what his commands were in the NT.

This is getting a little off-topic. But I generally agree with Texas Lynn on the OP question. Let's get back to talking about Christian sexual ethics.

CC

 

[Texas Lynn]

You 'dont believe'...that pretty much says it all.

It says I have a mind and a soul. Those who commit oppression for the sake of their own advancement surely lose both of theirs.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Oh please.
Fingers are 'wagging' so that sin might not be committed by those who look for justification and excuses to commit sexual sin.

Those who love do not face any requirement to provide justification for their actions whatsoever. The illegetimate authoritarian notion otherwise is something to be spit upon and defied by all persons of decent character.

Those who seek to oppress, however, never provide justification for their evil actions except their desire to advance their own power and control.

 

[Texas Lynn]

TL,

Did you know that the flood "legend" is not just contained in the OT...but is part of every ancient culture/religion across the world? Did you also know that there is geological evidence for such a flood? There is more scientific proof of that flood event than there is for the resurrection of Jesus. We're not required to believe in the flood...but IMHO it did occur. I wouldn't bet my life on it...but I would bet every cent I have...including the equity in my house on it. Just because something seems unbelievable...doesn't mean it didn't happen. What is more unbelievable...that a human would peform the miracles documented in the NT and would come back to life after being killed...or that there was a global flood?

Otherwise...I think you're onto something when comparing the God of the OT vs. Jesus' Father. The Apostle John says that 'God is love'. Jesus preached love. James called it the 'royal' law. Ain't nuthin' loving about killing 'sucklings'. The OT God would be viewed as a narcissistic killer one moment...then a loving Father the next. Sorta scitzo. It is very hard to reconcile the two portrails. Perhaps they are different Gods...and the Most High God (Jesus' Father) is the one we are to be worshipping? I dunno. I've read other commentary where an author does a good job explaining evil and harmonizing the OT and NT God. Details. All we really NEED though is Jesus...he said 'believe in me' and 'obey my commands'. We know what his commands were in the NT.

This is getting a little off-topic. But I generally agree with Texas Lynn on the OP question. Let's get back to talking about Christian sexual ethics.

CC

Thank you for offering a respectful disagreement. I can accept your points, though in no way does that mean the narrative of the Noah character is factual. I suppose if a volcanic hole the size of Kansas erupting can wipe out the dinosaurs then a worldwide flood is possible as well, though I am certainly skeptical of such and do not believe such a disagreement between us is important at all.

 

[one11]

That sounds nice, but if that's what "god" is like then such a "god" is of no use. I don't believe that such a "god" exists or if it did exist that it would be worthy of anything from humans at all. I don't believe any divine being ordered the Hebrews to smite other tribes; I believe this is merely the story put out by TPTB at the time. That is certainly one aspect of my not being a fundamentalist. If the cosmology you postulate were real, which I believe it not to be than I would refuse to go to such a hebbin with such an evil "god". The "Love of Jesus" as described does not atone for the evils of such a cosmic horror whatsoever.

Let me ask you Lynn, what "god" did Jesus and the Apostles worship?

And was this "god" of no use to Jesus and the Apostles?

 

[elephunky]

Justification, apparently.

Dont make assumptions.

By this post and others in the thread it sounds as if you have already decided. I don't understand the purpose of the thread.

I havent really decided. I havent stated, you know what, im gonna make out and have sex before marriage.

Its really an attempt to gather others information and personal opinions on the topic which has failed cos its now all about how God never changes blah blah blah. The only reason I posted it here was cos i cant post this topic in the singles forum.

 

[elephunky]

Oh please.
Fingers are 'wagging' so that sin might not be committed by those who look for justification and excuses to commit sexual sin.

Were you a virgin when you married?

 

[No Swansong]

Dont make assumptions.



I havent really decided. I havent stated, you know what, im gonna make out and have sex before marriage.

Its really an attempt to gather others information and personal opinions on the topic which has failed cos its now all about how God never changes blah blah blah. The only reason I posted it here was cos i cant post this topic in the singles forum.

Please know I meant no offense. It just seems that you had already decided for yourself and I couldn't figure out if you were looking for arguments that support your decision, or truly looking for arguments that may alter your future decisions on the matter. If the former were the case I would just bow out peacefully as it is not my goal to argue with people who have already made up their mind and are spoiling for a fight. (there are plenty of those around here)

But if your purpose was the later I am happy to share with you my thoughts on the matter.

In any case I didn't post as a sort of challenge, it was more intended just to obtain clarification.

 

[elephunky]

Please know I meant no offense. It just seems that you had already decided for yourself and I couldn't figure out if you were looking for arguments that support your decision, or truly looking for arguments that may alter your future decisions on the matter. If the former were the case I would just bow out peacefully as it is not my goal to argue with people who have already made up their mind and are spoiling for a fight. (there are plenty of those around here)

But if your purpose was the later I am happy to share with you my thoughts on the matter.

In any case I didn't post as a sort of challenge, it was more intended just to obtain clarification.

Its a huge obstacle in my faith. Ive been there, ive done that so it doesnt seem like such a huge deal to me. Sex wasnt this amazing experience that it was made out to be. It was an extra activity that was a whole lot of fun and bonding.

Im struggling to find a logical reason behind why i should abstain considering ive already done it. It no longer has the same meaning to me as it would to someone who is saving it.

Im also beginning to realise that the majority wanna date virgins.

 

[No Swansong]

Its a huge obstacle in my faith. Ive been there, ive done that so it doesnt seem like such a huge deal to me. Sex wasnt this amazing experience that it was made out to be. It was an extra activity that was a whole lot of fun and bonding.

Im struggling to find a logical reason behind why i should abstain considering ive already done it. It no longer has the same meaning to me as it would to someone who is saving it.

Im also beginning to realise that the majority wanna date virgins.

Well I appreciate your situation. There are a few things I want to post back to you but I want to make sure first.

I will however share a few thoughts;
I think you have discovered the first "secret" about marital sex. It isn't always "spectacular" often it is simple bonding and closeness. An opportunity to share with each other and to be close. It can also be, as you wrote, a fun bonding experience.

As for why you should continue to wait even though you have already had sex there are a couple of pretty good practical reasons. The most obvious being that unless you have had a tubal ligation or some type of injury that has rendered you sterile pregnancy is always a possibility regardless of the type(s) of birth control you may use. Additionally no form of birth control protects against every type of STD.

But beyond that, as a Christian it is pretty clear that any sex outside of marriage is a sexual sin. Committing a sin once, does not make one less culpable each time that sin may be repeated. For example if I steal a candy bar on Tuesday, stealing one on Wednesday would also be considered a sin.

As for the earlier comments I would say that you are correct that kissing doesn't necessarily lead to sex. However I was early 20's as you are once and I can assure you that doing so certainly lowers ones inhibitions. While sex is certainly not just going to accidentally happen, there are countless numbers of couples who said "well one thing led to another." That of course doesn't excuse the behavior but it does illustrate that the point in time at which that "decision" is made, is not always as clear as some like to believe.

I will pray that you find the Lords will for you, and then that you have the courage to follow it.

 

[Nadiine]

It says I have a mind and a soul. Those who commit oppression for the sake of their own advancement surely lose both of theirs.

:o So... reaffirming scripture in what God says is "sin" is now
"oppression"?

rofl

oh this is getting better every day I sign on.

 

[one11]

It says I have a mind and a soul. Those who commit oppression for the sake of their own advancement surely lose both of theirs.

I could say that about the LGBT movement as well. They are the one's looking to oppress for advancement. Not to mention they disrespect God (God haters), and not to mention the above statement and statements by TL in this thread shows back-biting, slander, approving of others who do sin... etc...

I find the statements in this thread and others proving, oh, what's that scripture again...?

All I can do is pray for you Lynn because if your church is teaching you these things, you are more Muslim or Buddhist or something else. IOW, if you see Jesus as a prophet or a teacher that is not what a Christian is. That's Muslim.

If I'm getting the wrong picture here of what you believe about God of the OT and how you view Jesus differently, then please, the church would like to hear it without the back biting please.

 

[Nadiine]

Its a huge obstacle in my faith. Ive been there, ive done that so it doesnt seem like such a huge deal to me. Sex wasnt this amazing experience that it was made out to be. It was an extra activity that was a whole lot of fun and bonding.

Im struggling to find a logical reason behind why i should abstain considering ive already done it. It no longer has the same meaning to me as it would to someone who is saving it.

Im also beginning to realise that the majority wanna date virgins.

Part of the problem is that our culture is so desensitized to immorality,
that what was created to be an intimate time of bonding and committment has been turned into sport as we use each other for
pleasure or to aleviate loneliness or fill the void we have for love.

Each person has their own first experience with this - but if people did wait, the experience might be alot more meaningful if they waited till
for the right guy/girl.

The reason we abstain is for alot of reasons - there's unwanted pregnancy, STD's, guilt, ... hooking up w/ the wrong guy can bring
a whole lot of trouble in different ways.
It can ruin relationships when they break off... we also stay together
alot longer w/ people who are bad for us if we're having sex becuz
of the bonding we shouldn't have had with them, so dating takes on
a whole new timeframe it might not have if we never had sex.

Not having sex also shows us what type of guy/girl we're with.
you find out alot quicker if they were just out for a piece ___ or
if they actually care about you to stay & get to know you without
that aspect.

It also cheapens sex the more you have it. (I should
know that too, it was pretty much my entire growing up).
It's not always great, there's plenty of guilt with it, plenty of fear
with it too - lots of regrets & it creates alot of baggage.

The most important reason is becuz God forbids it - living like that can
cost us our eternity if we turn away from Him & go our own way.

I could go on, but those are things I remember off the top of my head.

& if it wasn't as stellar as you thought it would be, I'm not sure what's
prompting you to want to continue that way?

 

[elephunky]

Firstly i would like to say thanks for the mature and respectful posts, i appreciate the lack of attacks.

Firstly - The logic in not having sex - There are many ways to protect ourselves these days. Problem is, people use only one method which still leaves a huge risk.

Secondly - I managed to repress those desires for a year (which is pretty big) but it only resulted in me exploding in a big way. I think if i feel restricted then im more likely to make stupid decisions as I have.

I dont like the fact that every intimate movement woudl have to be questionsed and critisized. If im in a rlationship with someone I love, and I wanna kiss em, then I just wanna kiss em without putting a sinful slant on it. Same with hugging, cuddling etc.

I go to church for a while, try to follow this "pure" logic and end up feeling restricted, caged and I actually end up pretty down in the dumps about htings. Maybe its because peoples eyes are alwasy juding you? Your made to feel unworthy? Or because you have to hide parts of your personality that you like. Im getting sidetracked lol.

I find it hard to trust the bible because it was guided by god but initially written by men with authority.

 

[elephunky]

Oh btw - i meant that physically it was great, but, there was no BIG emotional or spiritualness to it.