Instituted at Creation

[listed]

how nice that even the pro-Sunday sources admit that the TEN Commandments are included in the "Moral LAW" of God written on the Heart under the NEW Covenant.

these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Pro Sunday sources obviously don't support your idea either in teaching or practice. If they did they wouldn't be pro Sunday.

 

[listed]

Jesus said "if you would enter into life KEEP the Commandments" -- then Jesus was asked "Which ONES"?

Question - did He say "I am the Law of God now -- keep ME"?

Yes. Matthew 11:28-30 and John 15:10.

What did He actually say -- given that we don't want to make anything up - what did HE say?

Jesus said very plainly you will go through Him or you aren't getting in.

What an odd statement to make

Only if you don't believe the words of Jesus.

I find your logic "illusive" just then

Jesus said all who try to enter heaven by some other means than going through the Door are thieves and robbers. If you get in you will go through Jesus and not by keeping the law.

 

[listed]

God has called us to willingly take one day from the seven He has given us to just focus on Him... His creation... His Word... His people in fellowship... in surrender to Him. Not any day but the one He declared Holy and Worthy at creation.

If you don't think being disobedient is immoral then I don't have a better definition.

God only commanded Israel in this matter.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No.
It is because of Luke 6:31 and John 13:34.

OK.. you've reached the limit of my desire to further converse with you... I post a clear and easily understood passage of scripture and you're answer is "no" and then try to redirect me to other verses that supposedly bolster your contention.

I wish you well listed and I will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth. Goodbye.

 

[listed]

OK.. you've reached the limit of my desire to further converse with you... I post a clear and easily understood passage of scripture and you're answer is "no" and then try to redirect me to other verses that supposedly bolster your contention.

I wish you well listed and I will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth. Goodbye.

You ask if I steal. To which I responded No and gave my reasons. Did you read those passages or even know what they say? Evidently not even when they're linked. My guess is you're upset because I didn't blindly follow your lead to say the reason is because of the law. You need that kind of response to trap people into law observance namely the sabbath. Why when the NT repeatedly says we're not under that law?

 

[BobRyan]

We do not understand the 3rd Commandment pertaining to worshiping on any particular day of the week. Luther was opposed to Sabbatarianism.

"The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the Church." Augsburg Confession of Faith.

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." -Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue." The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].

"For up to this day mankind has absolutely trifled with the original and most special revelation of the Holy God, the ten words written upon the tables of the Law from Sinai."-"Crown Theological Library," page I78.


"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance."- AUGUSTUS NEANDER, "History of the Christian Religion and Church," Vol. 1, page 186.

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."-MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72.


"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel .... These churches err in their teaching, for scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect" John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp.15, 16

 

[FireDragon76]

"The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the Church." Augsburg Confession of Faith.

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." -Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue." The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].

"For up to this day mankind has absolutely trifled with the original and most special revelation of the Holy God, the ten words written upon the tables of the Law from Sinai."-"Crown Theological Library," page I78.


"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance."- AUGUSTUS NEANDER, "History of the Christian Religion and Church," Vol. 1, page 186.

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."-MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72.


"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel .... These churches err in their teaching, for scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect" John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp.15, 16

You must not take those quotes of out their proper context.

We acknowledge Sunday worship is just a custom of human beings in its origins, one that our history shows is fitting due to the dignity of the Lord's victory over the grave and the consensus of the early Church. We reject the idea that worshiping on any particular day makes one justified before God. That would apply just as much to Seventh Day Adventists as it would to Lutherans.

The moral law for Lutherans is always down to loving ones neighbor. It has nothing to do with outward ceremonies or customs. In fact that idea is repugnant to our theology.

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting that D.L. Moody also affirms the Bible detail that the Sabbath was given to mankind in Eden - Genesis 2:1-3

No he doesn't.

yes he does

You're free to prove he does. .

========================================
D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

This Sabbath Commandment section of Moody's Ten Commandment sermon goes quot]on with more detail. Here is a segment of that same section -- the ending concluding segment - that might help shed even more light on Moody's Intent - #229 post is on this[/QUOTE]

No sir you've taken quotes out of context

Just not in real life.

==============================================

As promised here is the proof Dl Moody doesn't preach the keeping of the 7th day sabbath:

Bait and switch much??

This was the "actual statement made"

Interesting that D.L. Moody also affirms the Bible detail that the Sabbath was given to mankind in Eden - Genesis 2:1-3

D.L. Moody "The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember,..."

the point remains.

And your "proof" only works by completing editing-replacing the original claim that was made.

 

[BobRyan]

You must not take those quotes of out their proper context.

We acknowledge Sunday worship is just a custom of human beings in its origins, one that our history shows is fitting due to the dignity of the Lord's victory over the grave and the consensus of the early Church. .

And the statements show a lot of affirmation for the Decalogue calling it specifically the "TEN Commandments" as if it is a bad thing to trash them.

So while I agree with you that the Lutherans in these statements are not specifically affirming the Bible Sabbath Saturday or Sunday - they do strongly affirm the TEN Commandments -- at least in these statements.

"The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the Church." Augsburg Confession of Faith.

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." -Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue." The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].

"For up to this day mankind has absolutely trifled with the original and most special revelation of the Holy God, the ten words written upon the tables of the Law from Sinai."-"Crown Theological Library," page I78.


"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance."- AUGUSTUS NEANDER, "History of the Christian Religion and Church," Vol. 1, page 186.

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."-MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72.


"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel .... These churches err in their teaching, for scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect" John Theodore Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday, pp.15, 16

 

[FireDragon76]

And the statements show a lot of affirmation for the Decalogue calling it specifically the "TEN Commandments" as if it is a bad thing to trash them.

So while I agree with you that the Lutherans in these statements are not specifically affirming the Bible Sabbath Saturday or Sunday - they do strongly affirm the TEN Commandments -- at least in these statements.

Yes, that is true, but we do not affirm them in a literalistic sense necessarily. We understand the 3rd Commandment as pertaining to hearing God's Word, not to Saturday worship.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, that is true, but we do not affirm them in a literalistic sense necessarily. We understand the 3rd Commandment as pertaining to hearing God's Word, not to Saturday worship.

At a sufficient distance from the actual text -- it could be made to suggest almost anything. Yet in the documents I quoted - the early statements appeared to be "aware" enough at that early date to know that Sunday was not the Sabbath and that the claimed change from Saturday - was wrong. How in the world could they have the presence of mind to admit to that Bible fact only to spin around on their own position and argue that it was really just "pertaining to hearing God's Word" which in that grossly watered down form could not possibly find in the Catholic change to Sunday - an argument against the Commandment to "regard God's Word" since the Word now no longer says anything at all about Saturday in this newly re-imagines form. Just as long as Catholics had a Bible somewhere in their set of beliefs they would be fine. In that new re-imagined commandment there was nothing in it saying you could not have your own Sunday Sabbath as long as you still held the Word of God in some regard in general.

Their statements of condemnation about that change - evaporate having nothing at all to support them after they reach their later re-imagining-the-text stage.

 

[BobRyan]

Pro Sunday sources obviously don't support your idea .

They affirm just as I said that the Ten Commandments were given in Eden and that ALL TEN still remain applicable to ALL mankind.

Points you were never able to refute.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't see Lutherans saying that changing to Sunday was wrong in the quotes you gave, merely pointing out that the "change" was of human origin and does not pertain to justification by faith alone.

Issues pertaining to worship are considered indifferent for us, meaning they are not considered de fide or dogmatic in character, and Christians are free to disagree according to their conscience. We merely prefer the traditional date of Sunday because it has served us well for nearly two millenia.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Jesus said "if you would enter into life KEEP the Commandments" -- then Jesus was asked "Which ONES"?

Question - did He say "I am the Law of God now -- keep ME"?

What did He actually say -- given that we don't want to make anything up - what did HE say?

I wrote about John 1; not about Matthew 19.
I wrote concerning 'Instituted at creation'; not about being kept still in the last days.

I wrote for, the Sabbath's Divine Authenticity; never against it.
I wrote for Christ from the beginning being the Author and Finisher of the Sabbath to the last days and to the end and after.

Forget it. You will NEVER understand ANYTHING but of the Letter-Law that killeth-- that killeth even the Living Word of God in Person, Jesus Christ who said in so many words, for sooth, YES, '"I am the Law of God now -- keep ME"!' for him who has eyes to read and ears to hear.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

It's Bob Ryan's 30000ndth (sorry, 50000ndth) post of the same post. The only one who does not understand him is Bob Ryan.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Pro Sunday sources obviously don't support your idea either in teaching or practice. If they did they wouldn't be pro Sunday.

Well said, finality reached! Bob Ryan has been refuted.
But be warned, Schwarzenegger the Terminator is a nice one. I just cannot fathom why BobRyan won't accept resurrection from the dead for origin of the Sabbath Day, resurrection from the depths of rebuttal being his mark of the b.... best.

 

[Joelthe vicious]

Yes and that text says nothing about "on." Your quote is a demonstration of how they spoke about time. It has nothing to do with the sabbath as the new moon inclusion proves.

'a demonstration of how they spoke about time':--
LXX, 'Estai mehn ek mehnos kai sabbaton ek sabbatou' - 'ek' - 'from to'; Nominative - Genitive sequentially 'from one to one-of' the same again, “from one Sabbath to one of the same Sabbaths regularly month after month after month without end”.

 

[listed]

I don't see Lutherans saying that changing to Sunday was wrong in the quotes you gave, merely pointing out that the "change" was of human origin and does not pertain to justification by faith alone.

Issues pertaining to worship are considered indifferent for us, meaning they are not considered de fide or dogmatic in character, and Christians are free to disagree according to their conscience. We merely prefer the traditional date of Sunday because it has served us well for nearly two millenia.

There's a predominate group making an issue where the is none. They're seeking conversions with threats trying to cause fear and really terror through misuse of Scripture inn addition to they personal statements. There are 2 other groups who also post here.

 

[listed]

As promised here is the proof Dl Moody doesn't preach the keeping of the 7th day sabbath:

One should read Weighed and Wanting by D L Moody to see what he is calling the sabbath starting at page 18. It can be found here - Weighed and Wanting by Dwight L. Moody - Free eBook

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site. Please read the whole section. We find this in the section for the 4th commandment -

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

Please note the emphasized. This isn't an edit. It's a direct c&p.

 

[listed]

At a sufficient distance from the actual text -- it could be made to suggest almost anything. Yet in the documents I quoted - the early statements appeared to be "aware" enough at that early date to know that Sunday was not the Sabbath and that the claimed change from Saturday - was wrong. How in the world could they have the presence of mind to admit to that Bible fact only to spin around on their own position and argue that it was really just "pertaining to hearing God's Word" which in that grossly watered down form could not possibly find in the Catholic change to Sunday - an argument against the Commandment to "regard God's Word" since the Word now no longer says anything at all about Saturday in this newly re-imagines form. Just as long as Catholics had a Bible somewhere in their set of beliefs they would be fine. In that new re-imagined commandment there was nothing in it saying you could not have your own Sunday Sabbath as long as you still held the Word of God in some regard in general.

Their statements of condemnation about that change - evaporate having nothing at all to support them after they reach their later re-imagining-the-text stage.

Even though the RCC says they changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, doesn't make it truth. The truth is Christians were worshiping on Sunday long before the 300's. This is documented in the Scripture and non canonized historical records.