Infants in Heaven?

[Blueberry Sponge]

Spiritual death is a result of sin.

And physical death.

The Psalm quote should not be taken literally.

Yes it should.

First of all, David is only speaking about the wicked.

That's all of us. All have sinned.

Second, David was merely trying to make a point by using figurative language.

David was making the point that the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon
as they be born, speaking lies.

Are we to literally belive that wicked people resemble lions and have fangs filled with venom also?

We are to believe that the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon
as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[Patristic]

And physical death.

Biblical verse that says physical death is a result of sin please. Romans 6:23 is speaking of spiritual death, the second death and contrasting that with eternal life.

Yes it should.

So please tell us how David says being conceived in sin, which could mean a whole range of things in the Hebrew, translated into I was conceived with a sinful nature? Notice David does not say he was conceived with sin in him, but that he was conceived in sin. Also if David is speaking purely in a literal sense here, then please tell us how hyssop can cleasne us from sin, and what bones did God literally break that David is asking to be restored.

David was making the point that the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Hmmm... and you have seen children begin speaking lies as soon as they are born? Well, please tell us when you saw this experience and please tell us if anyone was there to record the event because nobody else has ever witnessed such a phenomenon.

 

[armothe]

And physical death.

Christ came to undo what Adam did. Through Christ's blood spiritual death (as a result of sin) is conquered.

Yes it should.

Maybe figuratively literal. Do you take the entire bible physically literal? What a world you must live in where people have fangs full of poison!

That's all of us. All have sinned.

Then who are the righteous David speaks of in the next few verses?
58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance:
He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked;
58:11 So that men shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous:
Verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth.

-A

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

Biblical verse that says physical death is a result of sin please.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree...unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:17-19
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:21

So please tell us how David says being conceived in sin

My reference was Psalm 58:3 not 51:5.

nobody else has ever witnessed such a phenomenon.

Don't presume to speak for everyone else.

 

[water_ripple]

People:

Suffer the little children unto Me
for unless you become like them the kingdom of God is not yours.

Maybe we should stop debating about wether a baby is sinful or not...Perhaps we should revert back to the time when we depend on our Parent for survival.

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

Then who are the righteous David speaks of in the next few verses?

-A

They're saved sinners.

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

Perhaps we should revert back to the time when we depend on our Parent for survival.

Mind if I ask what in the world would that accomplish? The Bible teaches that babies are sinners and the concern here is what happens to them when they die. They die forgiven sinners and go home to be with the Lord. We can't learn that from reverting back to our past experiences.

 

[Patristic]

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree...unto dust shalt thou return. Genesis 3:17-19

But the question must be asked, was physical death just the natural consequence of Adam's disobedience or was it a punitive measure instituted by God as a result of sin? Nobody disputes that mortality is a result of Adam's sin that all humanity shares in, what is being disputed is that physical death is an actual recompense from God for sins.

My reference was Psalm 58:3 not 51:5.

I know what your refernce was, but both verses have been under discussion so I brought them both up. Both are using strong hyperbolic language to make a point.

Don't presume to speak for everyone else.

Please enlighten us as to when you have seen a child just born begin speaking lies. And if you have seen such a phenomenon can you verify that it took it place with documentary evidence? Such an event as a newborn baby speaking lies would surely capture the interest of the entire world, since newborn children do not yet have the ability to speak coherently.

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

Nobody disputes that mortality is a result of Adam's sin that all humanity shares in

Maybe you better reread this thread. Someone was definitely disputing it. That's what happens when you presume to speak for everyone else.

using strong hyperbolic language to make a point.

The point being made is that the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Please enlighten

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. There's your enlightenment.

 

[Patristic]

Nobody disputes that mortality is a result of Adam's sin that all humanity shares in

I have read the thread. I haven't seen anyone dispute that physical death is a curse that has passed upon all because of his disobedience. What I have seen people disputing is that physical death is a judicial punishment established by God that everyone earns by sinning.

The point being made is that the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Why don't you actually answer the question? You offer no conclusive proof that David was speaking literally and not in hyperbole. You just keep quoting the same scripture and don't offer any explanation as to why you are right, and why your interpretation is so great.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. There's your enlightenment.

Once again, all you do is quote the same verse. Please enlighten us as to why this verse is literal and not just a spiritual expression of David's great remorse. If the scripture says that the wicked are estranged from the womb, speaking lies, and it means that literally. Then shouldn't our everydays experiences verify this truth? When I see my children born shouldn't I witness them lying to me from the moment I am born? If David is speaking this literally, and this is what should happen, then I ask you to show us who haven't witnessed this event when you have. If Scripture says it, it must be true. So please tell us, when have you witnessed children telling lies from the womb?

 

[armothe]

Maybe you better reread this thread. Someone was definitely disputing it. That's what happens when you presume to speak for everyone else.

I sure don't see Patristic speaking on everyone elses behalf - or even other people's behalf for that matter.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. There's your enlightenment.

I sure didn't speak lies as soon as I was born (or so my mother tells me). And my son sure didn't speak lies from the minute he was born. Did something physically change between newborns in David's time and the present?
Do you know something we don't?
Or perhaps you should just admit this is a figurative statement - not to be taken literally.

-A

 

[Patristic]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] "1 Do you indeed decree what is right, you gods? Do you judge people fairly? 2 No, in your hearts you devise wrongs; your hands deal out violence on earth. 3 The wicked go astray from the womb; they err from their birth, speaking lies. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear, 5 so that it does not hear the voice of charmers or of the cunning enchanter. [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 6 O God, break the teeth in their mouths; tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord! 7 Let them vanish like water that runs away; like grass let them be trodden down and wither. 8 Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun. 9 Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns, whether green or ablaze, may he sweep them away! 10 The righteous will rejoice when they see vengeance done; they will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 People will say, "Surely there is a reward for the righteous; surely there is a God who judges on earth."
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]There is Psalm 58 in it's entirety. Let's take a look at this chapter to see if we can determine whether David was speaking literally or figuratively in this passage. David begins by addressing a question to these so-called gods. Now, there are two possibilites here: either David was speaking to the pagan gods of the surrounding tribes, or he was addressing some other individuals as gods. I like the way the New American Standard translation has rendered this verse because it makes verse 1 a lot more clear. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"1 Do you indeed speak righteousness, O gods? Do you judge uprightly, O sons of men?" David is using a common Hebraic poetical structure here, where the second statement rephrases the first statement in a different manner. This use of parallel statements is common in the Psalms. Therefore, we know that David is addressing the rulers and kings of the other nations. He is questioning their judgements and it is in verse 2 that he gives us the answer to his question.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In vese 2 David tells the reader that these leaders do not walk righteously or uprightly but that they introduce violence all over the earth by their very hands. They are freely committing criminal acts and they are not walking according to God's moral law, therefore they are to be condemned and reprimanded in the most possible language. It is exactly this that David does beginning in verse 3.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]So far there is mutual agreement as to what David is doing in this Psalm, but beginning in verse 3 he employs extremely strong and vivid language to make his point. Since the people being addressed in this Psalm are the unjust and wicked rulers of the nations, it is quite obvious that these are the people that David has mind throughout the entire Psalm. David doesn't begin the Psalm by speaking about a distinct group of people, and then unaware to the reader, change the focus of his thought on a whim. No, the wicked being spoken about in verse 3 are the rulers that David addressed in verses 1 and 2. Furthermore, is David speaking ultra-literally here or using hyperbolic and figurative language to make a point that these individuals have been wicked from their youth?
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]There really are no lexical or grammatical clues in verse 3 to lead the reader in one direction over the other. David says that they have been estranged from the womb, liars from birth, and they have gone astray. Although, one really can't make a judgement quite yet, one could ask, How does David know that these individuals spoke lies from the womb? Was David there when they were born to witness them doing such a thing? I don't think anybody wants to imply such a thing so it makes more sense to see David writing these lines to describe the great wickedness and evil of these rulers and not to talk about their activity as newborn infants. Again, David employs the same poetical parellel structure to reiterate his point. The second statement just restates the first in a different manner and reiterates David's main contention.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In verse 4, we get our first real indicator that David is using figurative language. He compares these rulers to snakes that have deadly venom. If this passage is to be understood as literal, then is David really saying that the wicked rulers of the nations have the same deadly venemous substance as serpents? Of course not! He is comparing their dispotion and actions to those of a crafty serpent. The twofold use of the word like shows that David is using a similie to compare the actions and demeanor of the wicked men to that of serpents. He isn't saying they are serpents, but he is comparing them to such to make a point. Furthermore, in verse 5 David says that these men have become like the serpent who turns his ear away from his charmer. In other words, they have chosen to turn their ear away from God. David is in no way implying that there is some musical charmer playing the lute trying to calm these rulers like such men did snakes. What he is saying is that in their obstinancy and rebellion they will not listen to God's voice who wants to cure them of this evil disposition. These men have intentionally made themselves deaf to God's pleas and thus, work iniquity and unrighteousness of their own accord.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In the next few verses David gives us his prayer to God regarding these men. He asks God to smash their teeth and break their jaws, and now he compares these men to lions. If this verse were taken literally one would come away with the impression that David is asking God to break the teeth of lions. Poor lions, what did they do to deserve such a harsh punishment? The lions mentioned by David are the same rulers mentioned in verses 1 and 2, and the same ones compared to serpents in verses 5 and 6. In verses 8 and 9 David illustrates a few ways in which he would like God to deal with these individuals. In verse 8 he wants them to vanish like water flowing away, and to wither like grass withers. In both instances the use of the word like indicates a similie or comparison. This is figurative language plain and simple. David is describing a possible punishment by comparing it to an actual situation.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In verse 9 David talks about another possible punishment. Dissolving like snails, or having never been born. Again, David uses the word like two times, a sign this is figurative language. If David meant the second punishment in a literal sense, this would involve God reversing the order of events in time that have occurred and making it so that the wicked rulers were never born, or died while they were in the womb. Such an assertion is folly and it doesn't flow with the natural reading of the text.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]In verse 10 David tells God to remove these men from the scene like how a whirlwhind removes brambles and thorns. The word suddenly, shows that David desires this to happen without their expectation, and to be done very quickly. Once again, David describes this chain of events by comparing it to an actual event, that of a whirlwhind blowing away thistles. Finally, in verses 11 and 12 David brings his Psalm to a resolution. He says that when these things occur the just will finally rejoice, and they will bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked. Does anyone honestly believe that David is literally saying here that he is going to bathe in the blood of the wicked? No, this just means that David and the just will triumph and rejoice over their enemies.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Finally, verse 12 brings the Psalm to a close. David tells the reader that by God accomplishing all of these things, i.e. bringing about the downfall and destruction of the wicked, and upholding and vindicating the just, that people will acknowledge God as the righteous judge that He is and will recognize that their is a reward for the righteous.
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]So taken as a whole, should the things contained within this Psalm be taken literally? Obviously not since David is using similies throughout, and since the Psalm is obviously using hyperbole and descriptive language to prove a point, not to state literal facts.
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[Blueberry Sponge]

Blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah

and yet,

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Yes they do. Just like God said.

 

[armothe]

Blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Yes they do. Just like God said.

"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out" (Matthew 5:29).

I'll assume as you respond you only do so with your left eye, because; I'm sure you've taken this command from Christ literally - and, well, because you are a sinner.....

-A

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

you are a sinner.....

-A

Amen. You, me, and all those rug rats.

 

[water_ripple]

Amen. You, me, and all those rug rats.

That is funny. My infants have never sinned. They have never woke me up at 12, 3, & 6 in the am just to delight in my sleep deprivation. They have never devled in the depths of depravity. They have never told me lies or anyone else for that matter. They have never rejected God or the teaching of Christ. If I have left any sins out please suggest further so that I may answer if my infants have commited the sin.

 

[Patristic]

Blah blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah

and yet,

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Yes they do. Just like God said.

OK, no meaningful exegeis on your part and no reason to believe your view is the correct one. I am pretty satisfied that I have proved your view is absolutely ludicrous in light of the text. Here is another thing that the Psalms state:

"O daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us
he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Psalm 137: 8-9

I take it you will be on the next to plane to Baghdad to commit infanticide by throwing the children there against the rocks. The Bible says it and therefore God is saying it, so you better hurry over there and follow these instructions literally because that is what the text is telling you to do.

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

My infants have never sinned.

And yet Scripture says they have.

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

no reason to believe your view is the correct one.

There is every reason to believe God's view is the correct one. His view is that the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Amen. That is the correct view.

 

[Pseud]

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Blueberry, you reiterate this passage again and again. Yet it talks about 'the wicked'. Just because someone sins, does not make them wicked. It makes them wrong, but not evil. I think you're using this phrase out of context and what it's really saying is: people are born evil.

Sinners aren't evil, let alone born evil. Sinners are just misled.